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EA-3167 2 days ago

I respect your principled stance on one hand, while on the other I’m amazed that someone as successful as you hasn’t learned that logic doesn’t dictate how governments work.

Don’t make a target of yourself, there are countless ways for a government to make your life miserable.

lrvick 2 days ago | parent [-]

I will never show fear to tech-illiterate bullies trying to compromise constitutionally protected rights. That is how freedoms get quietly lost.

Users need to see that the people in positions of influence in FOSS projects they trust are not afraid of this bullshit.

I -hope- someone is stupid enough to take a case like this to court so we can establish some much needed case law here. These overreaches deserve to be contested.

JoshTriplett 2 days ago | parent | next [-]

> I will never show fear

"never show fear" and "never engage intelligence" are two different things. Understand what people will do in response to your actions, and act accordingly to achieve the outcomes you want. Please by all means fight the law, and do so intelligently in a way that will actually help.

dooglius 2 days ago | parent [-]

Can you be specific in how you think he is behaving unintelligently, and what you think that people will do in response to his actions?

otterley 2 days ago | parent | next [-]

I'll bite. His statements in this very forum could he used against him as evidence of intent to violate the law, should he be prosecuted someday.

There's a reason why lawyers generally advise their clients to remain silent.

dooglius 2 days ago | parent [-]

> There's a reason why lawyers generally advise their clients to remain silent.

Most people prioritize their finances (and non-imprisonment) over their rights, and attorneys will optimize for that expressed preference. GP has clearly indicated his priorities are different. That has nothing to do with intelligence. Someone having a different set of values than you does not constitute unintelligence on his part.

kube-system 2 days ago | parent [-]

GP said they wanted to take it to court. I presume that means they wanted to win, in which case the best strategy is to discuss the issue in private with an attorney before making public statements that could undermine your ability to win.

If the actual priority here is advocacy, with no real desire to litigate, then I'd buy that.

lrvick a day ago | parent | next [-]

I am calling a bluff as a form of advocacy. There will never actually be any litigation because this law is a joke and should be treated as such.

JoshTriplett 2 days ago | parent | prev [-]

Exactly. More power to anyone who wants to fight this. But if the goal is to win that fight, do a better job of fighting, rather than acting like "oh, I have a structure that prevents me from complying" will somehow magically make a court go "eh, nothing we can do".

lrvick 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

No one is asking me to add code to stagex right now, so there is no actual legal situation I am in.

I am not even an owner of the project, I founded the project, but am now just one of many volunteer contributors. Are they going to mandate wikipedia volunteers alter pages to state guidelines as well?

We must not be afraid of stuff like this. It is blatant overreach I do not expect would stand legal challenge.

I am simply saying I would refuse to write code I do not want to write. I am honestly surprised people think this is such a scary thing to say.

The point of saying this publicly is not in order to harm or help my own defense of a court order from another state I will probably get.

It is to signal to legislators that if they decide to take this fight, it will be done with people not afraid to do it all in public to establish public trust. It is not even okay that people -think- it is possible for our FOSS projects to be altered or backdoored by any random state officials.

What next, asking Torvalds to add KYC to the kernel?

lovich 2 days ago | parent | prev [-]

Pretending like technical limitations protect him from being in violation of the law like another commentator made an analogy to handcuffing yourself to property you were told to leave?

His comments on this thread itself which establish intent to not comply with the law?

All power to him for going with his morals but he’s making unforced errors and should instead be contacting one of the several activist legal firms that would at least give him advice on how to protect himself and not follow through with this law if not outright pro bono legal defense.

otterley 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> constitutionally protected rights

Wait, which constitutionally protected right is that? I'm an attorney and constitutional scholar and am particularly interested in what right you believe is being violated here.

misphrasing 2 days ago | parent [-]

Code is speech. Forcing someone to implement something is legally-compelled speech, assuming no complicating factor like commerce.

hnlmorg 2 days ago | parent | next [-]

I’m not a lawyer and even I know that argument would never hold up given the plethora of other laws that have been implemented through software. Not to mention copyright and patent claims too.

lrvick 2 days ago | parent [-]

Being afraid and hoping you are never forced to add code to a project you do not want to add is letting the chilling effects work as designed.

We need to all loudly and publicly say "Fuck off, I will defend my rights if needed", so they understand how expensive the fight is going to be.

Fear is power. Do not give your enemies power.

hnlmorg 2 days ago | parent | next [-]

People don’t disagree with your moral position. The problem is you’re bringing a butter knife to a drone fight.

There are more effective ways protest this law than posting punk-rhetoric on a nerd forum for a project that will likely fly under the governments radar anyway.

iamnothere 2 days ago | parent [-]

Public expressions of defiance are motivating to people who don’t yet recognize that they have allies.

lrvick 2 days ago | parent [-]

At least one person understands my intentions. You made my day.

iamnothere a day ago | parent [-]

There are more of us than it appears, but we usually don’t speak out. Thanks for making a stand.

hnlmorg a day ago | parent [-]

We get their intentions. We just disagree with the effectiveness of it.

Posting rhetoric on an anonymous message board is not making a stand. If and when they’re doxxed by US media outlets, and slapped with life-changing court orders, with their work and families directly affected by their decisions; then they’re making a stand. But until that point, their words are as meaningless as their view of this law.

Eg I can confidently say I’m not going to comply with this law either. But you have no reason to assume that will make any difference nor that I wouldn’t fold the moment I’m put under the slightest amount of pressure.

If people really wanted to make a stand then they’d be drumming up support in real life, not anonymously. They’d be speaking to government representatives. They’d be raising financial support for lobbying change.

I’m old enough to have lived through multiple iterations of unpleasant laws being passed and each time a movement against it has been online-only, that protest has achieved nothing. So I know the real reason this maintainer is speaking as boldly as they are is because they know the government hasn’t heard of them nor their distro. Ie it’s a “making a stand” by doing exactly nothing. But it will also achieve exactly nothing too.

lrvick a day ago | parent [-]

Who needs to dox me? I am a using my legal name on here and am super easy to look up.

This law is stupid and I gleefully and openly mock it and those that think it is enforceable under my well known public identity.

No one should take these unenforceable overreaches seriously. People will be jailed for not putting age verification code in software as soon as they will for piracy, or owning a 3D printer without gun-detecting spyware. It is a fear tactic with no ability to enforce.

My message here should be pretty clear: Open source international community owned operating systems can just completely refuse to comply and nothing will happen to them.

iamnothere a day ago | parent [-]

Historically, mockery is also the best weapon against authoritarianism. It demonstrates that the state can’t control every aspect of citizens’ lives, especially their beliefs and attitudes. And if the state attempts to exert control, the mockery can be moved towards the subtle, forcing ever-more ridiculous actions like banning people from holding blank sheets of paper (China, UK). This demonstrates weakness, which encourages others to join.

In China at least, the blank paper protests were successful in making the government loosen up its extreme “zero-COVID” policies (welding shut the gates of apartment buildings, sealing off cities, etc).

otterley a day ago | parent [-]

Historically, armed conflict has proved to be the best weapon against authoritarianism, not mere mockery. The American Colonies had to fight a war to gain independence from Britain. The Third Reich was defeated by Allied soldiers. The Japanese emperor was defeated by nuclear bombs. Dictators in Algeria, Cuba, Vietnam, Angola and Mozambique, and Libya were all toppled by armed uprisings--the list goes on.

The "blank paper protests" might have been effective at persuading the Chinese government to undo some measures, but that government is no less authoritarian and repressive than it ever was.

iamnothere 21 hours ago | parent [-]

Are you really suggesting that armed conflict would be a better option here? Armed conflict is a last resort. It often leads to mass death and destruction, and just as often leads to worse authoritarianism, as in the French, Russian, and Chinese revolutions.

Mockery was very successful in maintaining morale among oppressed groups in both Nazi and Soviet Europe, as well as in many Latin American dictatorships, in times when armed rebellion wasn’t a realistic option. It was also effective during the Yugoslav Wars (Otpor) and the Vietnam War (inside the US).

If mockery weren’t an effective weapon, political cartoons and political satire (and establishment attacks on them) wouldn’t exist.

otterley 21 hours ago | parent [-]

> Are you really suggesting that armed conflict would be a better option here?

Of course not. I'm simply refuting your assertion that "mockery is...the best weapon against authoritarianism."

> If mockery weren’t an effective weapon, political cartoons and political satire (and establishment attacks on them) wouldn’t exist.

Mockery can be effective in inspiring others to topple authoritarian regimes or amass public support for doing so. But it is rarely, in and of itself, the weapon that does it. It's better thought of as a catalyst.

I'll also remind you that we still live in a democracy, not an authoritarian regime, despite whatever characterizations people make about our leaders (and some certainly might lean toward authoritarian if the Constitution allowed them to). The most effective means of change in a democracy are persuading voters and politicians. Mockery can help here, to the extent it engenders the sympathies of the larger population. That doesn't seem likely, though, given the content I've seen in this thread.

lrvick 20 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Given my comments were in the top ten highest voted of the day, it encourages me that a -lot- of people think this law is dumb and ideally some subset of them will fight it with me.

Some of us with mockery, and hopefully some with legal and political talent behind the scenes.

I am just a mascot pointing and laughing at a stupid unenforceable law with scary intentions. The real fight is likely to be fought by legal professionals, not me, and that is fine.

My job will be to keep shipping changes that protect user privacy and security because that is what my skillset is for.

otterley 20 hours ago | parent | next [-]

> Given my comments were in the top ten highest voted of the day

One comment was, and that was your most inflammatory. Those tend to attract the most attention. The trick now is to expand that brief popularity on HN (which is a very narrow audience) to the general populace.

hnlmorg 18 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

> Given my comments were in the top ten highest voted of the day, it encourages me that a -lot- of people think this law is dumb and ideally some subset of them will fight it with me.

Everyone on HN agrees this law is stupid, myself included. What we are refuting is that big words on an anonymous forum count as any form of protest. Because they don’t.

If it were that easy then I could cure cancer just be willing it via message boards. Or end the Iran war just by complaining about it online. Unfortunately actual change requires actual effort.

You can’t even change our opinion on this very small point and you have our attention and we are likely otherwise likeminded. So to argue that your words will have any effect to laws passed by completely different personally types who don’t even frequent HN is beyond absurd.

iamnothere 20 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

You’re just being pedantic about the definition of “weapon”. Without a groundswell of public support, it’s not possible to enact change. The finishing blow is just one link in the causal chain.

We actually live in an authoritarian or “managed” democracy, where technocratic leadership increasingly ignores or even openly mocks the demands and needs of the people. Insider trading and blatant market manipulation is rampant, technocrats are constantly devising new methods to surveill and suppress public dissent, and regime supporters (regardless of which “color” party is in power) dismiss legitimate concerns and gaslight the public. In some countries they’re even trying to ban political parties who promise to address popular issues. There’s a reason that dangerous ideologies and popular anger are rising, and it’s not the Internet—there are material realities underlying these complaints, and they aren’t being taken seriously.

Our last line of “legitimate” defense is the courts. Thank God for the courts! But they are gradually being compromised as well, and even the Supreme Court is willing to sidestep important decisions if they would be too controversial. Besides, legislation cannot be written from the bench. And so the noose gradually tightens around our necks.

Mockery seems very appropriate, as a way of undermining legitimacy and gathering support. Perhaps the regime can be coerced into serious reforms before it is too late. Or perhaps the old guard will be replaced with reformers as they finally shuffle off. Recent elections seem to indicate that the public won’t stand for the status quo.

hnlmorg 17 hours ago | parent | next [-]

You point is easily debunked by the fact that all those late night talk shows (Stephen Colbert, Jon Oliver, Jon Stewart, Seth and so on) haven’t changed a thing in US politics.

Mockery is a great medium for spreading a message. But words don’t make change by themselves. Ergo mockery is not an effective a weapon for change.

What mockery does do, and online petitions too, is placate lazy but opinionated citizens into thinking they’re part of a movement while they can sit in their comfy chair and do a grant total of nothing to actually further their ideologies.

otterley 20 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Look, you own the things you say and are responsible for their accuracy. Attacking people who rightfully correct your misinformed assertions and who want to steer you in a direction that will actually be effective in achieving your aims as "pedantic" does nothing to help your case.

Ultimately, though, it's your call--do what you want.

iamnothere 20 hours ago | parent [-]

Your “correction” was meaningless and incorrect. I stand by my assertion.

otterley 20 hours ago | parent [-]

If you say so. *shrug*

2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]
[deleted]
otterley 2 days ago | parent | prev [-]

> hoping you are never forced to add code to a project you do not want to add

You keep saying that, but that's not the realistic outcome. The realistic outcome isn't an injunction forcing you to add code. It'd be to force you to pull it out of circulation.

lrvick 2 days ago | parent [-]

They cannot force me to do either. But it would be a fascinating case study to watch them try. I feel it would only help prove the decentralized censorship-resistant tactics of the project work as intended. Government overreach should be in the threat model of every FOSS project.

hnlmorg 16 hours ago | parent [-]

There are already case studies that demonstrate governments can do exactly what the GP lawyer claimed could happen. You’re not treading any new and untested ground here.

otterley 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

That argument has been going on for decades, and has had few victories in the court system. The DMCA, which prohibits trafficking in anticircumvention devices, even though there's a lot of code in them, is still alive and well.

lrvick 2 days ago | parent [-]

And the DMCA has been rightfully weakened to the point that archive.org has every Nintendo Gamecube game ever made hosted for the public, for years, uncontested.

So too will these other silly laws go I expect.

iamnothere 2 days ago | parent [-]

Not only that, but people like myself are working on underground distribution networks in case they’re ever needed.

Absolute worst case we’ll do sneakernet. More likely we’ll just distribute via overlay networks.

Some of us are crazy enough to be full on free speech martyrs, believe it or not.

kube-system 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

There is pretty solid case law for the constitutionality of a variety of compliance requirements. If you can comply by being silent then they aren't really compelling you to do say anything.

soulofmischief 2 days ago | parent | prev [-]

Is is also clear that there are major deficits in our Constitution but that the amendment process has failed to survive a modern world.

Any of our original forefathers would recognize today's American federal government as an overreach from their indended form of government.

The only reason we aren't seeing a Boston Tea Party 2.0 over the recent string of coordinated assaults against our inalienable human rights is because surveillance capitalism is already coarsely achieving its goals of suppressing any civic participation which exists between the spectrum of ineffective political protest to the most desperate, radical action.

Some of those among us simply cannot drink this koolaid. A quote from MLK, Jr:

  I submit that an individual who breaks a law that conscience tells him is unjust, and who willingly accepts the penalty of imprisonment in order to arouse the conscience of the community over its injustice, is in reality expressing the highest respect for law.
Further reading https://letterfromjail.com/
blackqueeriroh 2 days ago | parent | next [-]

Yeah but most of y’all wouldn’t accept the imprisonment willingly.

soulofmischief 2 days ago | parent [-]

Who is "most of y'all"? Sounds like a generalization to me and a poor attempt at an appeal to character in order to undermine the perspective I've shared.

Have you been to prison? I've been incarcerated before already after having my rights violated. Let's not go there. Make less assumptions.

otterley 2 days ago | parent [-]

Incarcerated temporarily (e.g. awaiting trial or a prosecution decision), or actually convicted and sentenced to imprisonment? These two things are not the same.

lrvick 2 days ago | parent | next [-]

No one is being convicted and doing hard time for refusing to add age verification to a Linux distro. This is just more fear mongering.

It would be a fine or a few days of jail until bail is posted, at worst. And then a media shit show where the public is certain to side with the developer who is having their rights violated to discourage this from ever happening again.

The public even got the back of weev for his bullshit arrest. Weev, one of the shittiest people to ever live. But rights are rights.

otterley 2 days ago | parent | next [-]

> No one is being convicted and doing hard time for refusing to add age verification to a Linux distro.

That's not the point. The point is that people who don't face a real possibility of being convicted and imprisoned are the ones who make the most noise about how they're willing to accept imprisonment (or, worse, are cheering on others to be imprisoned as some sort of Cyberpunk Martyr).

As I said elsewhere - it's easy to be an Internet Tough Guy when you (think you) have little to lose.

soulofmischief 2 days ago | parent [-]

This reads like your personal fantasy. It's also insulting to people who stand by these words all the way down the slippery slope. People who spend time trying to make the world safer for you and others.

Instead of positioning yourself adversarially and making unfounded and unwarranted claims about others, it would be more productive to engage in good faith and seek to lend a hand.

You've already made flat-out incorrect assumptions about me, indirect or not. Calibrate yourself.

otterley 2 days ago | parent [-]

My "personal fantasy"? Give me a break.

You've gone off the rails. You're not the hero saving the world that you make yourself out to be. Get over yourself.

I'm done with this thread.

soulofmischief 2 days ago | parent [-]

You quite frankly have the conversational intelligence of a petulant child and I would not seek your legal advice in any matter if this is how you conduct yourself when discussing law with others online.

otterley 2 days ago | parent [-]

I am ok with this. Sometimes a lawyer doesn't want certain clients, either.

iamnothere 2 days ago | parent [-]

A non-practicing lawyer, by definition, has no clients. Just to be clear.

soulofmischief a day ago | parent [-]

They also just went and silently changed multiple comments in order to make their replies look less edgy, petulant and unprofessional. I'm all for editing out swipes, but the lack of acknowledgement makes it clear that their last resort for turning this one around is manipulating the conversation after the fact to benefit themselves.

soulofmischief 2 days ago | parent | prev [-]

The public may have weev's back, but privately the majority of us disavowed him after he went full nazi in prison and doubled down on an alt-right agenda. I personally know people who signed the court petition to get him acquitted and they have rescinded support for him. That said, he shouldn't have gone to prison for that.

Anyway, the nature of a slippery slope like this one is that the punishments will get worse over time as the government further vilifies those who push against things like this and encryption backdoors.

soulofmischief 2 days ago | parent | prev [-]

You're right, they're not.

otterley 2 days ago | parent [-]

So which was it?

soulofmischief 2 days ago | parent [-]

I am amazed that an attorney would ask me to divulge this kind of highly personal information in a public forum when I am clearly trying to be discreet.

otterley 2 days ago | parent [-]

I'm not your attorney; I don't owe you a duty of confidentiality. You're not being discreet at all; you brought up your prior incarceration, presumably in the hopes that it would help you prevail in this discussion. By so doing, you opened that door and made the issue relevant.

soulofmischief 2 days ago | parent [-]

That has nothing to do with your general professional respect for others and knowing how to read the room.

otterley 2 days ago | parent [-]

I've read the room. I think I'm okay.

soulofmischief a day ago | parent [-]

Is that why you just felt the need to edit each of your comments in an attempt to make them less petulant and more substantial?

otterley 2 days ago | parent | prev [-]

Are you seriously comparing the "oppression" of a programmer who is forbidden from distributing an OS that fails to ask the user's age to the actual oppression of Black people in the United States before the Civil Rights Era? The oppression that involved lynching?

Jesus H. Christ.

soulofmischief 2 days ago | parent [-]

You have no idea who I am, what hardships I have dealt with, and clearly don't have a complete understanding of civil liberties if you cannot make the connection between the violation of two different Constitutional rights.

Your current negativity is not welcome, if you are an attorney then please conduct yourself with more professionalism. If you want to seek to understand, great, but now you are being aggressive and negative and making a host of unfounded assumptions.

otterley 2 days ago | parent [-]

I'm happy to let the court of public opinion settle this one.

soulofmischief 2 days ago | parent [-]

Is that your legal advice? Has this strategy worked for your clients before?

Edit: Poor taste to edit out your original comment with no acknowledgement. That was inappropriate and you know it, which is why you've now changed your comment.

pixl97 2 days ago | parent | prev [-]

While they may take you to court over this, make sure you can survive sitting in jail at first if government decides to make an example of you.

And where code is speech, is a distribution speech? There's a lot of places for this to go sideways on you personally.

lrvick 2 days ago | parent [-]

The fact people are scared, or scared for me, is in and of itself a problem.

But lets all wait for nothing at all to happen. Then confidence can grow over time that this is unenforceable in any effective way.

They should go back to trying to police piracy via bittorrent (lol).

EA-3167 2 days ago | parent [-]

I think the issue here is that while the people here are aware of the history and "utility" of laws like the one above, most people aren't and right now "regulate social media, the internet, and what my kid does with computers" is having quite a day. Inevitably all of this is framed in terms of keeping children safe, whereas piracy is at most a misdemeanor of very little consequence.

Although I have no doubt that courts would ultimately side with you, the chance of becoming even a transient focus of a frustrated AG or congressperson looking to pin blame on "Out of touch and recalcitrant techies, the very ones who created this problem," is chilling. It's meant to be chilling, but it often works because he reality of what you'd go through on the way to eventual victory isn't trivial. Maybe you're willing to go through the courts (public opinion and otherwise), but if so the first thing any attorney you employ will beg you to do is stop talking the way you are.

tl;dr I think taking a stand is great, I support that, I think doing it now is a good idea. I don't think you should talk about it in public though, especially not in a literal, "Come and get me" way.

pixl97 2 days ago | parent [-]

Ya, I think op needs to study the history of civil rights in the US on how to do these things. Quite often the people that were getting arrested and challenging the state were specifically chosen because they didn't have any kind of dirt to dig up. The state is perfectly fine with playing dirty inside and outside the courtroom. The state would love the person brining a constitutional challenge to suddenly be marred in the eyes of the public as some kind of deviant.

lrvick 19 hours ago | parent [-]

Been trolling stupid powerful people for over 20 years and spent no time in jail yet. Maybe that is my survivors bias talking, but I will not allow my free speech to be chilled.