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JumpCrisscross 12 hours ago

Apple could probably sell a machine starting at $10,000 if they architected it as the sole place one’s Private Cloud Compute [1] ran.

It would need a path to a $2,500 machine, I think. But this is a niche I don’t think another consumer-facing brand could do like Apple.

[1] https://security.apple.com/blog/private-cloud-compute/

tl 2 hours ago | parent | next [-]

I asked an Apple (via a sales rep who visited our company to showcase in internal iPad healthcare app) to please do this for iCloud when iCloud Drive was in-development. We would have easily paid $50,000 for a rack-able Mac Pro you could point "managed" devices at.

Apple simply cannot comprehend the ask.

Aurornis 2 hours ago | parent | next [-]

> Apple simply cannot comprehend the ask.

Apple knows the market demand for this type of device.

You may have paid $50,000 for it, but you’re only one customer. At Apple scale they need to focus their finite resources on the products that serve the largest market demand.

$50,000 rack mount servers are not a large demand.

runako 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

They had Xserve, it didn't sell well enough to survive.

mmoustafa 12 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

The out-of-stock $6000 M3 Ultra Mac Studios with 800GB+ memory bandwidth are going for $24,000 on eBay, so yes definitely

thephyber 11 hours ago | parent | next [-]

I don’t think we should use current prices as landmarks for large scale demand. That Studio’s current prices is inflated because of a (presumably) short term supply crunch, not because the average user is willing to pay $24k for a home AI inference device.

It assumes that RAM remains supply constrained and that none of the existing RAM contracts are cut short.

But Meta and xAI putting A TON of AI compute onto the market. OpenAI and Anthropic are raising the costs of inference (by reducing how much inference users get via subscriptions). And we haven’t seen Oracle / CoreWeave struggle to pay their debts yet, but they will be selling assets once they get close to that point.

throw1234567891 8 hours ago | parent | next [-]

512GB M3 Ultra is out of stock, not coming back, and there’s nothing like it on the consumer market. That’s the reason they go for so much.

brandensilva 3 hours ago | parent [-]

But there will be and his point is they cut off supply to make room for the new M5 ultra which I hope has 768GB or more of memory.

uejfiweun 10 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

What makes you think the supply crunch is short-term?

IsTom 10 hours ago | parent | next [-]

If demand doesn't fall down or current manufacturers supply go up, somebody (presumably in China) will spin up fabs. Apple wanted to use blacklisted Chinese RAM already.

swader999 5 hours ago | parent | next [-]

It's the euv machines that are the bottleneck. Pretty hard to ramp those up any faster in the next few years.

smallmancontrov 3 hours ago | parent [-]

DDR5 is still mostly made with DUV (remember Intel 14+++++++++?), and even though manufacturers have slowly been moving a few layers to EUV the advantage is at the margin. Lack of EUV at scale will not prevent China from ramping useful RAM into this market.

inferniac 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

spinning up fabs takes ages, micron has a US fab started bulding in 2023, its still not operational (projected to start mid-2027)

coldtea 3 hours ago | parent [-]

That proves that spinning up US fabs takes ages.

Chinese fabs might not be so tied with red tape and regulation upon regulation (which is a funny reversal, in terms of "communism vs capitalism" bureucracy/inefficiency cold war thinking)

buckle8017 3 hours ago | parent | next [-]

The Chinese don't have access to new EUV machines.

All of their fabrication ability is based on old processes.

coldtea 2 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Not so sure about that: https://www.reuters.com/world/china/how-china-built-its-manh...

cayleyh 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

DDR5 is DUV not EUV

ralusek 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

1.) China is not communist, even remotely so. China is fascist in every sense of the word.

2.) Authoritarianism can move faster than anything. They can just say "wipe out that village, build the coal plant there, data center here, fab here.

3.) If it's red tape and regulation holding the US back, then that's clearly not "capitalism."

narrator an hour ago | parent | next [-]

I think the most ironic fact of the 21st century is that there are less than 20,000 naturalized citizens in China. Western leftists don't really have a good explanation for that one and it definitely leans into the fascist characterization.

coldtea an hour ago | parent | prev [-]

>1.) China is not communist, even remotely so. China is fascist in every sense of the word.

Except in the actual historical sense. They appear to enjoy all sorts of freedoms, increased prosperity, even have elections at different levels but under a single party system. Which is not necessarily that different than a effectively two party system.

>2.) Authoritarianism can move faster than anything. They can just say "wipe out that village, build the coal plant there, data center here, fab here.

Now that China is more effective, "it's easy because they're authoritarian". Before the argument was "authoritarianism can never be as effective as free-market democracy".

>3.) If it's red tape and regulation holding the US back, then that's clearly not "capitalism."

It's real world capitalism, not some fantasy some guy imagined removing all warts.

not-a-llm 7 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

where is this cheap Chinese RAM? I'd like to buy some

officeplant 5 hours ago | parent [-]

Ebay and Amazon are flooded with it. Especially if you are looking for anything prior to DDR5. DDR2 and DDR3 are especially flooded with weird brands you've never heard of before.

Unfortunately its not so cheap anymore as everyone ramped prices up of course.

Last year I could still get 32GB of DDR4 for under $60 from chinese brands.

not-a-llm 43 minutes ago | parent [-]

DDR3 is from 10 years ago. DDR2 is from 15.

officeplant 21 minutes ago | parent [-]

And?

I just upgraded my 2008 Thinkpad R61i to 8GB of DDR2 a few months ago while I was also upgrading to a core2duo.

DDR2 and DDR3 are still in active use by SBC manufacturers.

byzantinegene 8 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

I am hopeful but I am not confident China has the capability to do it.

coldtea 3 hours ago | parent | next [-]

As if it requires some unique genes or brains?

If a place can do it, another place, with a huge track record on manufacturing and lately expanding all kinds of tech, can.

pfannkuchen 3 hours ago | parent [-]

It might help to not have much in the way of environmental, safety or labor regulations.

Whether or not you feel like those are good overall (I do), they do actually also slow things down.

coldtea 2 hours ago | parent [-]

>It might help to not have much in the way of environmental, safety or labor regulations.

Yes, like how it helped western industry early on. Or, well into the 70s for the most part.

anonym29 8 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

They're already doing it

https://www.techspot.com/news/112502-memory-prices-tipped-fa...

t-3 7 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

If the increased demand is not short term, production capacity will eventually increase. In the meantime, the logistics disruptions and industrial material shortages and energy inflation will disappear as soon as the wars disrupting them stop, which should bring prices down.

not-a-llm 7 hours ago | parent | next [-]

you assume demand will remain flat

what if demand keeps rising faster than production capacity is deployed?

t-3 5 hours ago | parent [-]

If demand and prices keep rising without production capacity being built fast enough, there will likely eventually be a rush leading to overinvestment and price crashes, but there are too many other factors involved; state investment for security, international politics and trade relations, the possibility of an AI bubble burst, etc.

MomsAVoxell 7 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

There are wars coming. The prices are not going down.

We are in a bubble which will be burst the moment the world starts retaliating against the US' 20+ year history of supporting genocide and committing war crimes unabated.

Buy the AI toys while you still can.

msdz 10 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Unless the raw materials have an inherent limit on mining/production due to the amount present on the planet, why should or would companies not ramp up to eventually meet demand?

Edit: Okay, this doesn’t mean that that’s actually possible in the short-term, so I think you’re right. But that means as the silver lining, in the medium term horizon there’ll be enough supply again? :’)

JumpCrisscross 10 hours ago | parent [-]

> why should or would companies not ramp up to eventually meet demand?

Memory is a cyclical market that has historically rewarded conservatism [1].

Counterpoint: there is enough demand from enough capital-rich customers that they may be willing to shoulder the capital risk.

[1] https://www.ldeepai.com/tech-hub/dram-industry-consolidation... Sorry for the slop link, it has a good chart from a solid source

wongarsu 8 hours ago | parent | next [-]

For existing producers expanding capacity would be a risky move. But it's the perfect time for any newcomers to enter the market. Low yields and worse product don't matter as much right now, and by the time the market cools down you have everything dialed in and can compete on even ground

JumpCrisscross 6 hours ago | parent [-]

> it's the perfect time for any newcomers to enter the market

This is a good hypothesis. Curious if anyone has data on the failure rates of new entrants in semiconductors based on how frothy it was on founding.

On one hand, more demand makes selling easier. On the other hand, a shortage makes your input costs (consumable and capital) pricier.

EDIT: It seems like the 2 to 3 year lead time and a crowding effect from new entrants historically made booting up a fab into a boom a bad bet [1]. (The article argues, convincingly, that this time may be different.)

[1] https://www.uncoveralpha.com/p/every-memory-cycle-ends-the-s...

AussieWog93 9 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I heard that China was spinning up DDR5 (but not HBM?) production in the next couple of years, with the hope of outcompeting Korea and Taiwan in the mid to long term.

HPsquared 6 hours ago | parent [-]

It does seem like an opportunity on a silver platter for Chinese newcomers. Huge demand at the moment.

msdz 9 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Thanks for the link (and underlying thoughts), I really hadn’t considered that.

So essentially, due to technological progress and other factors inducing price collapses (or at least cycles), you can’t start stockpiling insane amounts of finished-product semiconductor, which means you can’t scale production at current technology levels to infinity either?

techpression 8 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Don't forget price fixing [1] which we are seeing clear indicators of happening right now too.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DRAM_price_fixing_scandal

djfergus 9 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

[dead]

trebligdivad 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Yeh I don't know why the emphasise the 'neural engine' - it's their stonking RAM bandwidth that just blows everything else out of the water.

JumpCrisscross 12 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Let me clarify, I think Apple could sell a device at the scale Apple sells at around the $10 to 25 thousand price point.

Like, take out the price sheets for the Apple Car. Then sell me an AI tower at those price points.

fy20 11 hours ago | parent | next [-]

In 2010 one of the standard configurations for the Mac Pro was $4,999. Once you customised ram, storage, peripherals and software it could easily end up above $15,000, or $23k today accounting for inflation. Apple hardware is one thing that has actually got cheaper over time.

https://www.macworld.com/article/209019/macguide2010.html

eitally 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I think so, too, and I think it'll end up being a race between Apple & NVIDIA (or NVIDIA partners) to see who realizes this first. It would probably be easier for Apple to do it because it wouldn't require a form factor adjustment [over the Mac Studio they already have]. That said, NVIDIA already offers chipsets for both the lower end (DGX Spark with Vera + GB10, at roughly the $4500 price point) and higher end (DGX Station with Vera + GB300, for $85-100k). The DGX Station is equivalent to ~5-6 RTX6000 GPUs attached to a mid-range CPU server, but far more than most individual developers would want or need. I've heard through the grapevine that NVIDIA's received consistent feedback that they need something like a "GB20" that slots above the Spark/GB10 and can simultaneously run larger models for inference while hosting a dev environment on the same box. You can daisy-chain Sparks just like you can daisy-chain Mac Minis, but you're still constrained on model performance based on what a single device can accommodate.

bigyabai 28 minutes ago | parent [-]

Form factor is the easy part - both Nvidia and Apple are experienced SOC designers.

The hard part is the GPU architecture. Apple Silicon was designed with a laser focus on raster efficiency (similar to AMD's GPUs) which makes a lot of sense for highly mobile hardware, but is a crippling mistake for high-performance compute. Apple's largest Ultra chips are hamstrung with SOC-tier GPU performance, their highest-end desktops are outperformed by Nvidia's laptop offerings. Apple has to find a way to scale upwards without imposing too much architectural strain on their cheaper hardware like the iPhone and Macbook. Nvidia has already solved this issue; full CUDA compute stacks are usable on extremely cheap GPUs like the Nintendo Switch's Tegra SOC, or the Mac Mini-sized Jetson boards.

In terms of "who needs to redesign more to address the market", Apple has a lot of technical debt to unearth before they catch up to Nvidia. And if they do catch up, Nvidia will still support Linux and other differentiating features that Apple refuses to implement. It definitely feels like Nvidia is closer to a winner with the Spark than Apple is with the Mini or Studio.

bigyabai 11 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Or they could use that same amount of memory to ship 64x Macbook Neos, and probably make higher margins off the hardware volume.

Those Macbook Neo users would be very reliant on Apple intelligence, enough maybe to pay for a service with it. I think Apple's much happier going this path.

JumpCrisscross 9 hours ago | parent | next [-]

> Or they could use that same amount of memory to ship 64x Macbook Neos, and probably make higher margins off the hardware volume

If it's an "or," absolutely. But if it's an or, they should be prioritising Macbooks over the Mac Mini Doug Brooks is discussing.

When we breach the "and" of memory supply sufficient to allow for more Mac minis (and Mac Studios), I think it would make sense to consider relaunching Xserve (with new branding, of course) as a consumer/small business product.

bigyabai an hour ago | parent | next [-]

Memory supply isn't what held back XServe. We wouldn't need XServe if Apple treated the Mac like a regular computer and supported usable, first-class headless workflows and eGPUs.

The writing has been on the wall since 2019. Apple doesn't like the old way of computing, their goal is to expand the ecosystem by prioritizing install-base and then pushing first-party service offerings like they did with the iPhone. And like they did with the iPhone, Apple is great at ignoring power users to focus on features that make them more money.

You may be waiting a few decades for this type of product, memory supply be damned.

LastTrain 6 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

If we reach the and, then they can no longer demand the price

gizajob 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

They could do both though. The margin from one user buying a $25000 is sky high compared to sixty kids all with the cheapest computer possible.

bigyabai 42 minutes ago | parent [-]

It's really not. Apple's phone margins have been as high as 30-40% per-unit, it's likely that they make at least ~$80-150 per Macbook Neo sold.

At the $150 mark (which is probably accurate factoring in lifetime service spend), that's a $10,000 minimum return on the 64x Macbook Neos. Apple can charge that type of premium on consumer hardware, but they're in no position to command $10,000 margins on professional hardware. They're not Nvidia, Apple has always been LARPing as an HPC vendor.

jiqiren 7 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

When I was at Apple we never wanted or. We wanted all. If that push to use Chinese memory works out it will be great for us and Apple.

bigyabai an hour ago | parent [-]

Apple sure doesn't act like it. The Mac is still a minority market share of PCs, and their entrants into spaces like AR do nothing to compete with incumbents.

Now that the Mac Pro is depreciated, Apple's plan to pivot to service offerings seems set in stone. That's the "want it all" attitude they've adopted with the App Store.

10 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]
[deleted]
testing22321 11 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

I’m still disappointed they didn’t make a Mac Pro with 4 or 8 or 16 or 32 ultra M chips for something insane

moritzwarhier 10 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Not the same issue, but makes me nostalgic for these simpler times:

https://www.wired.com/2011/04/amazon-flies-24-million/

cactusplant7374 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

How much did Apple sell them for?

api 6 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

I’m sure that hasn’t gone unnoticed.

WillAdams 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Ages ago, back when the Macs would come out, my co-workers and I would take a bit of time to configure the most expensive possible configuration --- time was, it was pretty easy to hit six figures, but over time, that has gradually come down.

blitzar 9 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Apples on stage use cases for their hardware and software makes me wonder if they actually use computers over there, or what a "job" at apple entails.

I am unsure that apple themselves understand why their hardware (top end & bottom end) has been so successful, without this understanding leaning into these use cases isn't really going to be possible.

spacedcowboy 4 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Having worked at Apple for over a couple of decades, I can attest there are some very (very) capable and intelligent people there.

I trust they know more about their business model than some rando on the internet, sorry.

blitzar 2 hours ago | parent [-]

Those of us that are less capable and less intelligent must just be holding it wrong.

petesergeant 8 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

> I am unsure that apple themselves understand why their hardware ... has been so successful [like I do]

You have a bold career as a technical journalist ahead of you!

blitzar 7 hours ago | parent [-]

Obviously they are playing 12d chess. They stopped selling high memory machines, they stopped selling pro machines. They are the king of local Ai compute, definitely not stumbling backwards into a product category they didn't know existed.

With their apple finger right there on the pulse, they are going hard on the VR/AR glasses (following the lead of the visionary CEO of facebook), cars and folding phones. By the end of the year (tm) we 100% will have all the features that were showcased and demonstrated 2 releases ago.

egorfine 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Apple is quite hostile to professional users, so no.

ChrisMarshallNY 4 hours ago | parent [-]

Sadly, that is an outdated PoV. It has probably not been valid, since last century.

It's just that Apple isn't really focused on software development professionals, and it's still fashionable to throw shade on them, so we hear a lot of kvetching about it, in communities like this.

egorfine 3 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Could you please point me out which current Mac model has enough storage for full feature video editing job? Thanks.

ChrisMarshallNY 3 hours ago | parent [-]

I dunno. It's not my bailiwick. I do know lots of pro editors use Macs, but I think they use DaVinci Resolve (not Final Cut Pro). I'm interested in finding out what you use for it.

I've been using Macs for all kinds of stuff, since 1986, so I can definitely state they get work done.

egorfine 3 hours ago | parent [-]

I'm being sarcastic here.

But I still strongly believe that Apple hates pro users because they don't make as much money and because they get in the way of serving laymen. The Aperture fiasco, the Final Cut Saga, the Xcode war of attrition and the never ending chain of failures with MacPro - all suggest that I'm right.

(Developer of a major plugin for DaVinci here)

ChrisMarshallNY 3 hours ago | parent [-]

Good on ya. I'm not interested in fighting about this stuff. I've had people hating on me for using Apple since the 1980s. It gets a bit old. Sort of like high school popularity contests.

egorfine 2 hours ago | parent [-]

I'm an exclusive Apple user for a couple decades so I'm not fighting here :) just acknowledging the fact that Apple has some deficiencies

ChrisMarshallNY an hour ago | parent [-]

Fair ‘nuff.

As an Apple developer, since then, I have been incandescent with rage at Apple, many times.

Guess I’m a walking demonstration of Stockholm Syndrome (at least, that’s what I’ve been told).

Jcowell 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

I’m interested to know the ways that Apple doesn’t cater to Software devs the way other OS does. I hate developing on a windows/non-unix machine

ChrisMarshallNY an hour ago | parent [-]

I feel that it does, but I’m also a dev. I used to run a multi platform shop for years, and have a pretty good idea of what kind of support various companies give.

deadbabe 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Our company would buy at least 10 of those instantly.

RajT88 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Bring back xServe!

sajithdilshan 9 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

But that would be more for enterprise usage. I cannot imagine a personal computing usage which can justify a 10k machine.

JumpCrisscross 9 hours ago | parent | next [-]

> cannot imagine a personal computing usage which can justify a 10k machine

For me, the privacy pitch wins. I have a friend visiting, however, who spends like $2,400 with Anthropic every year. That's a solid ROI even if the thing becomes obsolete after a couple years. (I'm still on my 2020 MacBook Pro. I love it and will be sad when I have to replace it.)

Shadowmist 5 hours ago | parent | next [-]

In addition to privacy I’d like to be able to burn as many tokens as the hardware will let me 24/7 without getting a surprise bill at the end of the month. I don’t care if it is slower that the cloud, I’m not in a hurry.

sajithdilshan 9 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

> That's a solid ROI even if the thing becomes obsolete after a couple years.

How can that be a solid return on investment? There's no model you can run locally to have frontier model level performance. Also who spends 2.4k yearly for personal AI usage, like what's the usecase? If your friend is spending that money for his business then it's not personal computing.

lanyard-textile 6 hours ago | parent | next [-]

That's the $200/mo subscription -- not uncommon :)

I do the $100/mo for myself, then about ~$200/mo for startup.

Mistletoe 6 hours ago | parent [-]

Do you use it for work? I can’t imagine paying this myself for personal use. I just don’t see the benefits vs. the free models available to me.

JumpCrisscross 9 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> There's no model you can run locally to have frontier model level performance

I'm betting he doesn't need a frontier model. Sonnet, today, is likely good for 80% of his tasks, which largely involve repretitive, tedious work.

> Also who spends 2.4k yearly for personal AI usage, like what's the usecase? If your friend is spending that money for his business then it's not personal computing

Combination of business and personal.

gizajob 6 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

People with money and things to do. People spend $100+ a month on coffee without even blinking.

randusername 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Apple does like to market their hardware for education and small business customers, though.

I think "buy this $10,000 box and to easily grant every Macbook Neo on your team safe, private, free AI" could be a real winner.

charcircuit 7 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Apple is a premium brand with high brand loyalty. Do you not think even 1 billionaire would want something like that? Even to just say that they bought it. Apple could sell things at a price point much more than $10k.

hilariously 5 hours ago | parent | next [-]

There's only so many billionaires and at Apple's scale you would not offer such a product for public sale even if you do custom builds for the rich and famous.

Apple makes product lines with assembly lines, its not a hand fab or custom build type of place.

sajithdilshan 5 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

At the end of the day, it’s just an Apple computer, not a Ferrari or an Aston Martin. I hardly think an Apple computer can be considered as a luxury item, unless they release it as a limited edition

root_axis 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Who would be the market for such a thing?

hyperbovine 4 hours ago | parent [-]

People who are good at convincing their boss.

ulfw 7 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

How many of these 'consumer' customers would they get for $10,000 and how would they reach their Apple-typical gigantic margin with that?

arthurcolle 11 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

100%

kotberg 10 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

[flagged]

pjmlp 9 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Very few brands have such a distortion field.

See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Cult_of_Mac