| ▲ | simonw a day ago |
| "The leaderboard, which ranked employees and teams by token consumption, inadvertently incentivized usage volume over productive output." Who could possibly have predicted that happening? |
|
| ▲ | Aurornis a day ago | parent | next [-] |
| A past employer thought it was a good idea to put up a leaderboard of who sent the most Slack messages. They celebrated the people at the top for being so active. Predictably, everyone started talking in Slack like their jobs depended on it. Everyone was responding to everything. Instead of writing out a complete message and pressing enter, they'd send each fragment of the sentence as a new line. The Slack leaderboard was never shown again. Unfortunately the habit remained because people were afraid they were going to be secretly judged by how much Slack activity they generated. I expect the same thing is going to happen at companies who had token leaderboards. Once you've instilled that fear in people, they internalize the expectation. |
| |
| ▲ | PaulHoule a day ago | parent | next [-] | | Reminds me of the place I worked at where I got in trouble because I was the only person writing JIRA tickets. Instead of bitching out the product manager or the tester for not writing tickets, they just complained to me. And if I wrote a ticket about how we could speed up the 40 minute build to 15 minutes I'd have to explain "How does this change improve the customer experience?" to which I answered "If the build was faster the customer would have had the product six months ago" | |
| ▲ | lokar a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | I worked somewhere that made time from PR being sent for review and ready to merge be a metric for the reviewers. Not time to add feedback in each round. Total time elapsed. Insanity | |
| ▲ | Loughla a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | You have to realize that if you set a measure, you're actually setting a goal for your employees. There is no such thing as a meaningless metric; why else would you measure it? No amount of "this isn't used for anything" will change that. It's inherent in human nature in the 21st century to believe any and all metrics will be used against them, and therefore must be gamed. It's why you also have to set UNBELIEVABLY clear goals and have incentives tied to those goals. Incentives meaning money. If you want to measure things, measure them. But have clear, consistent, and meaningful goals tied to bonuses or something if you want a thing done correctly. | | |
| ▲ | chillfox 16 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | I worked at a place that argued that nobody would game the metrics because it would be wrong and they never stated what the metrics were… while I was gaming the metrics and they were praising me for being one of the best on the team. It was an unreal experience. | |
| ▲ | 4yfr a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Kinda. The answer is simpler on the surface: focus. Generally the problem is the larger the firm’s operations, the harder it is to focus. Apple is the only firm that has done well on this consistently and doesn’t have a huge grave yard of failures to show for it. | | |
| ▲ | estearum a day ago | parent | next [-] | | Are you saying what people are hoping to achieve with stupid goals? Because yeah, obviously. But the point is that they're stupid, so they don't achieve that, and that failure is 100% knowable in most scenarios. | |
| ▲ | butlike 10 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | PUBLIC graveyard |
| |
| ▲ | Freedom2 a day ago | parent | prev [-] | | I wonder if this should be codified as a rule of thumb, or an unofficial "law"? One perhaps we can reference easily among our peers. | | |
| ▲ | aeve890 a day ago | parent [-] | | You mean like Goodhart's Law? (Unless you're being sarcastic) | | |
| ▲ | Loughla 6 hours ago | parent [-] | | That's close but not quite. That says that when a measure becomes a target, it ceases to be a good measure. My argument is that in the 21st century, a time of great data use without deep understanding, any measure at all will inherently become a goal to be gamed. |
|
|
| |
| ▲ | Eridrus a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | This will inevitably be allocated like other budgets, and from talking to Meta folks about GPU budgets, it is going to be brutal. | |
| ▲ | ghurtado 19 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | "when a measure becomes a goal, it stops being a measure" It's surprising how often this principle is applicable. | |
| ▲ | morpheos137 a day ago | parent | prev [-] | | What is about silicon valley leaders not understanding basic economics or business management? These kind of cargo cult tactics would not fly in any other industry. | | |
|
|
| ▲ | jghn a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| > Who could possibly have predicted that happening? Charles Goodhart :-) |
| |
|
| ▲ | ryanschaefer a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| It’s funny how many times the same thing happens at each large company. I think people’s thought process is this: > Oh wow! If I paid for this myself I would have spent a lot of money! Are other people spending as much as me? I’m going to create a leaderboard! > Oh no, my misinformed manager is using the leaderboard as a slight of hand for work. I need to game this now. Then the leaderboard is banned… I can’t see how this ever really goes up the chain beyond director. |
| |
| ▲ | what a day ago | parent [-] | | There is zero chance that this is how the leaderboards came to be. | | |
|
|
| ▲ | darth_avocado a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| > Who could possibly have predicted that happening? Everyone except the executives who get paid millions to predict exactly that. |
| |
| ▲ | Avicebron a day ago | parent | next [-] | | Not a problem. There are thousands of employees standing by, willing to sacrifice their jobs for their vision. It's a hard job, someone has to not pay consequences for bad decisions. | |
| ▲ | red-iron-pine 10 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | presumably they covered this in the boilerplate MBA courses they took, non? |
|
|
| ▲ | skizm a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| It wasn't leadership doing this though. Any meta IC can generate internal apps and dashboards. This was unofficial and unsupported. Some random IC just made it for fun. Management is usually pretty lax with stuff like this (plenty of games and joke internal apps) so they left it up until it became a problem. |
|
| ▲ | giancarlostoro a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| I still don't understand how Mark Zuckerberg has any serious investors, he went on this AI tangent and has absolutely nothing to show for it, despite FB / Meta having built some key tech in the space. He needs to stop trying to do something "different" and literally try and build a serious coding agent he can sell, he could have probably had something worthwhile in that space by now. He started being drastically more serious into AI in 2022, and 2023 and he has nothing to show for it. Heck, he could have rented GPUs the way Elon did at this point and either mended the bleeding or stopped it, not sure how many he has, but it beats losing this badly. If he doesn't wake up and learn how to business, I suspect he will lose his empire he's built up for himself. |
| |
|
| ▲ | qwertytyyuu a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| I know right? What did the leadership think would happen when they give some of the worlds greatest software engineers (supportably), a easily quantifiable metric to target? |
| |
| ▲ | VygmraMGVl a day ago | parent [-] | | The leaderboard wasn't leadership generated, it was engineer generated from internally available data. The leadership target is "impact" from ai tools. | | |
| ▲ | gtowey a day ago | parent | next [-] | | What a wonderful scapegoat! Technically it's all "engineer created" because the managers generally don't do technical work. I bet many managers pushed their reports to increase their usage during their 1:1 meetings based on data from the leaderboard. If management had any sense that it was a bad metric, they had ample time to get ahead of it and take it down and provide appropriate guidance. Instead, predictably, they waited until it was a full on disaster and a crisis before acting. | | |
| ▲ | VygmraMGVl a day ago | parent [-] | | At one point there were over 70 different token maxing dashboards as the management had a game of whack a mole trying to remove them. There definitely was encouragement from management about a year ago to increase ai usage, but once Claude code was allowed, they didn't really need to encourage anyone any more. |
| |
| ▲ | Avicebron a day ago | parent | prev [-] | | Budget impact is technically impact. |
|
|
|
| ▲ | 0cf8612b2e1e a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Now come on, there was a recent post where the author argued that infallible management knew this would happen, but was part of the double-secret-probation strategy to get the cogs to finally start using AI. |
| |
| ▲ | SpicyLemonZest a day ago | parent [-] | | I still think this is true and it’s not obvious to me from the source article that Meta believes otherwise. I couldn’t find the full memo, do they claim the leaderboard or “tokenmaxxing” era was a mistake? | | |
| ▲ | TheOtherHobbes a day ago | parent [-] | | Would they admit it if it was? Or would they try to find a plausible rationalisation for wasting billions without any return? |
|
|
|
| ▲ | John23832 a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Given that Meta has run 5ish layoffs at this point, and everyone is in survival mode, what did they expect? Everyone wants to juice whatever numbers possible to keep their jobs. |
|
| ▲ | a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| [deleted] |
|
| ▲ | nsonha 17 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| My company has an AI leaderboard and ONE ranking to be this, AND OTHER rankings like efficiency (loc merged per token). No one is so stupid that they think any single one of this is to be optimized (gamed) for. Tech journalists have low opinion of people with actual skills who actually contribute to society, and when their opinions get posted here, it's often selectively echoed by people looking for a reason to feel smarter than the industry. |
|
| ▲ | thewhitetulip 20 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Even in firms that don't hold this board, giving unlimited AI to people means those who don't bother to learn technology can now deliver 100x their capacity, in very poor quality code |
|
| ▲ | dzonga a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| unfortunately at big tech, this shit will keep happening. people who make it to managers tend to have bozo tendencies & are yes men. before it was lines of code, Jira tickets closed. Now it's tokens spent. |
|
| ▲ | zulux a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| [flagged] |
|
| ▲ | sharts a day ago | parent | prev [-] |
| How dare you question the most effective allocators of capital. |