| ▲ | ceejayoz 2 days ago |
| Kavanaugh's dissent is kinda hilarious in this context. > The original
constitutional principles do not change absent a
constitutional amendment, but the relevant principles—
both the rules and exceptions alike—must be faithfully
applied not only to circumstances as they existed in 1787,
1791, and 1868, for example, but also to modern situations
that were unknown or unanticipated by the Constitution’s
Framers. This, of course, doesn't include machine guns. |
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| ▲ | qingcharles 2 days ago | parent | next [-] |
| I've laughed ever since United States v. Jones (2012), the GPS tracker-stuck-to-vehicle case. The justices actively debated what the historical equivalent of 24/7 digital tracking would look like in 1791. This prompted the famous hypothetical of an officer secretly squeezing into the trunk of a horse-drawn carriage to track someone's movements over several days. The issue here is that there's no practical way to ever update the Bill of Rights in the 21st century. Bug or feature? |
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| ▲ | semiquaver 2 days ago | parent | next [-] | | > no practical way to ever update the Bill of Rights in the 21st century
What on earth do you mean? The practical way is the same as it always was: subsequent amendment. The fact that it requires consensus is a feature.This reads the same way as people who say things like “we just have to accept that Congress is broken and can’t pass new legislation.” Like hell we do! | | |
| ▲ | lazide 2 days ago | parent [-] | | They mean ‘have you seen congress? Good luck’, not that the mechanism is mechanically harder to use. | | |
| ▲ | qingcharles 2 days ago | parent | next [-] | | This. Getting enough states to agree on a change would be a fool's errand I think. It seems like the reds and blues can't agree on anything at all any longer. | | |
| ▲ | graveemaster 2 days ago | parent | next [-] | | I agree 99% with you, except when it comes to these enormous data centers. When you look at the local zoning committee meetings, you're seeing Reds, Blues and Ind mostly calling for a moratorium on build sites in their communities. | | |
| ▲ | lazide a day ago | parent [-] | | What does that have to do with anything that would plausibly be in the bill of rights? |
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| ▲ | Henchman21 a day ago | parent | prev [-] | | I mean, after decades of manufactured cultural rifts, we're right where the powers that be want us to be. Disorganized and ripe for exploitation. |
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| ▲ | expedition32 a day ago | parent | prev [-] | | People in my country hate eachother yet nobody pretends it's still 1848- the year the Dutch constitution was written. | | |
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| ▲ | cucumber3732842 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | >The justices actively debated what the historical equivalent of 24/7 digital tracking would look like in 1791. Redcoats in your home, comparing notes with all the other redcoats who live in your buddies house and hassle your bartender, watch the comings and goings of everyone else around town, etc, etc. | |
| ▲ | krapp 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | >The issue here is that there's no practical way to ever update the Bill of Rights in the 21st century. Bug or feature? Given that this isn't an issue in any other modern democracy, I'd say "bug." | | |
| ▲ | nradov 2 days ago | parent | next [-] | | The slow pace of change is a feature, not a bug. It's fine to wait decades or centuries until we have broad consensus before making amendments. While this might seem maddeningly frustrating or unjust in the short term, in the long term it makes our republic more stable. The USA has had an uninterrupted system of government since 1789. How many other major countries can say the same? | | |
| ▲ | ceejayoz 2 days ago | parent | next [-] | | > The slow pace of change is a feature, not a bug. To a point. It seems to have ground to a halt. > The USA has had an uninterrupted system of government since 1789. How many other major countries can say the same? Quite a few of them can say "we took those good ideas and built on them". | | |
| ▲ | nradov 2 days ago | parent [-] | | In what sense has it ground to a halt? Eight amendments have been ratified in the past 100 years. I think some people are taking a very short-term view here and lack a historical perspective. Let's see how those other countries are doing 100 years from now. | | |
| ▲ | redserk 2 days ago | parent [-] | | A government structure that changes isn’t inherently bad. The US has gone through multiple iterations just by reinterpreting a document. Other countries tend to be a bit more explicit in this. The US in 2026 operates fundamentally differently than in 1910, and both are unrecognizable to 1801. The document was written when there were 13 states, and at best, appetite for a mere handful of others to join. For example, the degree of the weaponization of state-carving in the mid-19th century wasn’t in the cards. A 26 member upper legislature operates substantially different than one comprised of 100 members. | | |
| ▲ | soulofmischief a day ago | parent [-] | | The scaling laws involved here are worth precise study. A high majority requirement seems reasonable as you have less and less members. It prevents one person from coming in and convincing two other people to completely change how things operate. But the optimal majority requirement which balances rigidness and flexibility certainly trends downward as an organization grows. By how much? I'd like to know. |
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| ▲ | UncleMeat 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | > The USA has had an uninterrupted system of government since 1789. Sort of. We had a civil war. We had a second founding. Then we had violent overthrowing of the reconstruction governments in the south. It has been less than 100 years since the US has provided the franchise to everybody, and even then this is a bit questionable. Instead of constitutional amendments we get aggressive reinterpretation of the text by politically motivated efforts to change the courts. Despite no change to the constitution itself we've created criminal immunity for presidents and overturned interpretations regarding separation of powers than have been in place for a century. | |
| ▲ | harimau777 2 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | Ya, screw all those people who have to suffer in the short term! |
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| ▲ | willturman 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | ‘No Way To Prevent This,’ Says Only Nation Where This Regularly Happens https://theonion.com/no-way-to-prevent-this-says-only-nation... | |
| ▲ | lazide 2 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | Eh, since it would most likely be used to remove some key right…. |
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| ▲ | 0xbadcafebee 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Well it's a feature in that the ratification rules were part of an intentional illicit rewrite of the constitution. We could make it easier to modify like other nations, but that also makes it easier to repeal. I think the fix is to require more political parties to be involved, so a 51% majority of a single party can't remove federal laws whenever they have a majority. Then you wouldn't need an amendment to solve controversial problems. | | |
| ▲ | semiquaver a day ago | parent [-] | | Anything requiring bipartisanship can be gamed with synthetic parties, the legitimacy of which will surely be deemed a nonjusticiable political question. |
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| ▲ | watwut 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | > The issue here is that there's no practical way to ever update the Bill of Rights in the 21st century. Bug or feature? Of course there is, it is just being done - the constitution is being rewritten out right now by supreme court. All you need is a majority on a 9 person commission. | |
| ▲ | 2 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | [deleted] |
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| ▲ | anamax 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Radio, TV, cameras That said, breech loaders were used by the British during the Revolutionary War (the Ferguson Rifle) and multiple shots from a single barrel using multiple "touch holes" was well known. And then there's Puckle's gun. |
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| ▲ | lazide 2 days ago | parent [-] | | The Gatling gun also predates any widespread gun control. Notably, the Gatling gun is still legal almost everywhere, including California (lulz!). If that is legal, what is the actual point of 99% if the rest of the bans, etc? | | |
| ▲ | harimau777 2 days ago | parent [-] | | The main point is that there isn't an epidemic of gatling gun crimes in America. | | |
| ▲ | lazide 2 days ago | parent [-] | | There isn’t an epidemic of any other gun crime, by the numbers. | | |
| ▲ | ceejayoz a day ago | parent [-] | | https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2023/10/31/1209683... > The U.S. has the 28th-highest rate of deaths from gun violence in the world: 4.31 deaths per 100,000 people in 2021. That was more than seven times as high as the rate in Canada, which had 0.57 deaths per 100,000 people — and about 340 times higher than in the United Kingdom, which had 0.013 deaths per 100,000. https://everytownresearch.org/graph/the-u-s-gun-homicide-rat... > The US gun homicide rate is 26 times that of other high-income countries. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/26551975/ > US homicide rates were 7.0 times higher than in other high-income countries, driven by a gun homicide rate that was 25.2 times higher. For 15- to 24-year-olds, the gun homicide rate in the United States was 49.0 times higher. Firearm-related suicide rates were 8.0 times higher in the United States, but the overall suicide rates were average. Unintentional firearm deaths were 6.2 times higher in the United States. The overall firearm death rate in the United States from all causes was 10.0 times higher. Ninety percent of women, 91% of children aged 0 to 14 years, 92% of youth aged 15 to 24 years, and 82% of all people killed by firearms were from the United States. We have more firearm homicides per capita than other prosperous countries have total homicides via all methods. | | |
| ▲ | lazide a day ago | parent [-] | | We were talking specific models, yes? | | |
| ▲ | ceejayoz a day ago | parent [-] | | You said "any other gun crime", so no? How much do you think of this disparity is due to Gatling guns? | | |
| ▲ | lazide a day ago | parent [-] | | In reference to the ‘no epidemic of Gatling gun crime’ comment, yes. What other epidemic of a specific type of gun crime is there, exactly? (And no, entire categories like ‘hand gun’ don’t count) | | |
| ▲ | ceejayoz a day ago | parent [-] | | > entire categories like ‘hand gun’ don’t count How convenient for your argument! Why not? You aren't concerned that our murder rate is seven times that of other OECD nations, and 25x when limited to firearms? | | |
| ▲ | lazide a day ago | parent [-] | | Because words have meaning, and ‘handgun’ can mean anything from a muzzle loading musket to a literal MAC-10 that can fire 1800 rounds per minute. And if you can’t understand or articulate what is going on, then good luck doing anything about it? I provided a concise term that actually has a concrete meaning. That is the thread we are in. Care to join? Or do you want to scream incoherently into the void more? | | |
| ▲ | ceejayoz a day ago | parent [-] | | > Because words have meaning, and ‘handgun’ can mean anything from a muzzle loading musket to a literal MAC-10 that can fire 1800 rounds per minute. Yes, that's what this thread's about. You argued Gatling guns being legal makes gun control overall silly; someone else noted that the theoetical regulatory gap exists because in practice no one uses Gatling guns in crimes. > And if you can’t understand or articulate what is going on, then good luck doing anything about it? I think 25x the gun homicide rate effectively articulates what's going on. Do you disagree? | | |
| ▲ | lazide a day ago | parent [-] | | And for any given thing that meets the criteria for ‘handgun’, what percentage do you think has ever been used in any significant number of crimes or accidents? I’m guessing way less than 1%. Either by make/model, or by individual items. Statistically, by item, it’s likely .001% territory. So again, care to make your screaming more coherent? Right now you seem to be doing the equivalent of screaming about ‘cars kill people’. When, okay, there are a lot of car accidents. Plenty of people murdering each other with cars too! But how does that add anything to the conversation? and I gave an example of a historically high power piece of military equipment that would still strike fear in anyone on the other side of it - that is also completely legal to own in even a high ‘ban’ state like California - and apparently also not ‘causing a lot of crime’. there are new manufacture ones out there. they are pretty cool! [https://tippmannordnance.com/gatling-guns/]. so what is the actual deal, eh? |
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| ▲ | AngryData 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Fully automatic guns maybe not, but the founding fathers definitely knew about repeating firearms, they had more than a few offers to purchase them, both for military uses and as private citizens. They just denied to because it was expensive to purchase and maintain. |
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| ▲ | camgunz 2 days ago | parent [-] | | No. While originalists and textualists purport to refuse to extend any principle into the modern day ("no right to privacy in 3A, 4A, etc"), one they do is that 2A doesn't merely apply to arms of the day, but also to modern arms. It's... pretty blatant. | | |
| ▲ | anamax a day ago | parent | next [-] | | Electric presses seem to be covered by the 1st amendment, and there's a much bigger "output" difference between electric presses and manual presses than there is between machine guns and flintlocks. (Not to mention that flintlocks weren't the most sophisticated personal firearms in the 1770s, just the most common.) | |
| ▲ | anon373839 2 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | Trump v. United States tells you everything you need to know about the jurists who claim to follow those doctrines. There isn’t a shred of originalism or textualism supporting it. |
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| ▲ | xnx 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Humans are rationalizing animals, not rational ones. |
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| ▲ | zeroonetwothree 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Machine guns are illegal in the US. SCOTUS has never ruled there is an individual right to own machine guns. |
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| ▲ | ceejayoz 2 days ago | parent [-] | | Yes, that's precisely the point. The textualists turn out not to be so textualist when they feel like it. |
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| ▲ | monocularvision 2 days ago | parent | prev [-] |
| How doesn’t include machine guns? |
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| ▲ | ceejayoz 2 days ago | parent [-] | | Keep reading! > In Second Amendment cases, this Court
applies the Amendment to semi-automatic handguns even
though those did not exist in 1791 or 1868. "Shall not be infringed" apparently applies to unimaginably better weaponry, but they couldn't have anticipated immigrants being pregnant. | | |
| ▲ | fakedang 2 days ago | parent | next [-] | | Does the right to bear arms extend to stuff like MANPADS, tanks and fighter aircraft? | | |
| ▲ | ceejayoz 2 days ago | parent | next [-] | | I think that’s the only logical conclusion of the “shall not be infringed” absolutists. They shy away from admitting it, though. “Oh, those aren’t arms. They’re, uh, destructive devices!” | | |
| ▲ | lazide 2 days ago | parent [-] | | Most would be happy to allow them. Let god sort ‘em out, and all. | | |
| ▲ | ceejayoz 2 days ago | parent [-] | | I tend to doubt it. Reagan and the NRA were quite happy to regulate guns when the Black Panthers showed up with them. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mulford_Act | | |
| ▲ | cucumber3732842 2 days ago | parent [-] | | Hint: If someone says "yeah sure manpads are fine" they're not some fox news boomer who adores Reagan. | | |
| ▲ | ceejayoz a day ago | parent [-] | | It's still very much a phenomenon. Look how the NRA and GOP handled the Philando Castile case (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killing_of_Philando_Castile), for example. Suspicious silence, for the most part. | | |
| ▲ | lazide a day ago | parent [-] | | The ‘right’ is a venn diagram, not a solid block. The NRA has a lot of overlap, but Reagan was never particularly pro-gun - he was literally a California Actor, and it was under him that most federal gun laws were passed. (1984 GCA being huge) In many ways, he was just really good at pretending to be/pushing folks on the rights buttons, while being a smokescreen for all the other laws that people needed to pass. In that way, a lot like Trump is right now. Notably, Reagan also had dimentia/Alzheimer’s through a large portion of his terms, not that it is related to our current situation at all… |
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| ▲ | camgunz 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | The motivations underlying 2A are: Protection Participation in military / national defense Resistance of tyrannical government Hunting Depending upon whether or not you think the Constitution is a living document, a modern reading of 2A could reasonably include things like explosives, drones, radar, etc., but maybe exclude things like nukes, fighter jets, biochemical weapons, other purely offensive things. I'm very pro-gun regulation, but I think this would be a fine reading as long as we're doing the same thing across the Constitution, i.e. substantive due process. But while conservatives love modern readings of 2A, they deny modern readings of anything else. So they have to find some way to fit their desired outcomes into originals/textualism, leading to absurd dilemmas like "either the founders meant muskets or they meant nukes", or tortured standards like scanning all firearm or self-defense laws in effect around the late 18th century to discern intent, which predictably do not emerge from consistent foundational principles because their authorship is scattered across space and time and thus really are no help... unless of course you cherry pick shamelessly. | |
| ▲ | nradov 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | It's an interesting legal question. Around the time that the US Constitution was written there were private citizens who owned artillery pieces and even entire warships. | |
| ▲ | cucumber3732842 2 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | It ought to. If you can afford either of those you have enough invested in the system that you probably won't use it lightly and if you don't you should and that's kind of the system's problem. | | |
| ▲ | ubertaco 2 days ago | parent [-] | | Ah yes, that well-known link between having immense wealth and being characterized by restraint and regard for the well-being of others. That's why Elon Musk is both the richest man in modern history and also the most upright, caring, and self-restrained one too! |
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| ▲ | 2 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | [deleted] |
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