Remix.run Logo
augstein 3 hours ago

For SpaceX (and possible the others):

Yes it can, since they changed the rules to force over $30 trillion in passive 401k and retirement money to buy SpaceX at IPO valuations.

From https://x.com/Hedgeye/status/2060435253928604065:

"Rule changes for the SpaceX $SPCX IPO:

Index providers waived the profitability requirement and cut the seasoning window from 90 days to 5.

This forces over $30 trillion in passive 401k and retirement money to buy SpaceX at IPO valuations.

Bloomberg Intelligence estimates S&P 500 funds must absorb 19% of SpaceX's float within 6 months.

Russell 1000 and Nasdaq 100 funds will absorb 24%.

The rules built to protect passive investors:

1. S&P 500 has required 12 months of trading and 4 quarters of GAAP profitability since 2002. Both waived.

2. Nasdaq cut its inclusion window from 90 trading days to 15.

3. FTSE Russell cut its to 5.

All three benchmarks are now structured to buy SpaceX at IPO pricing."

JumpCrisscross 3 hours ago | parent | next [-]

> All three benchmarks are now structured to buy SpaceX at IPO pricing

S&P has not finalized a rule change yet.

taurath 2 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Ill bet all the decision makers wives have suddenly come into some nice island property recently though

stinkbeetle 24 minutes ago | parent | next [-]

You're claiming without evidence that the bureaucracy and regulators are corrupt to the core? No way I refuse to hear another bad word about the government, they are above reproach sir.

digitaltrees 8 minutes ago | parent | next [-]

I was a lawyer in 2008 representing banks in the financial crisis. Multiple bankers wives set up companies to by mortgage backed securities using government loans and government guarantees on payment upon default. That let the banks get the toxic mortgages off their balance sheet.

These wives were yoga teachers and socialites. And I say that as a man that is a feminist and upmost respect for the amazing women I have worked with that were absolutely world renowned professionals. The bankers wives were not in that category and were shells to eliminate the “conflict of interest”. The CEO of Goldman Sachs did this. You can find the records if you want to be on a government watch list.

riffraff 14 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-]

To be fair, these are not regulators, just private companies making up rules, so technically this is not corruption just something that looks like it but it's just business™

HWR_14 14 minutes ago | parent | prev [-]

These are all private companies's decisions.

kevin_thibedeau an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-]

At least a new Cybertruck.

gruez 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

If you have evidence of corruption, present it. Otherwise it's just generic cynicism leading to a thought terminating cliche.

dools 2 hours ago | parent | next [-]

At this point in US regulatory oversight I would have a harder time finding evidence of no corruption.

an hour ago | parent [-]
[deleted]
wookmaster an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Why else would they change the rule ?

tikhonj 8 minutes ago | parent | next [-]

Because they think that a lot of people will want to get in on the historically massive and well-known companies, which would lead to outflows if the index doesn't pick them up fast enough?

JumpCrisscross 27 minutes ago | parent | prev [-]

> Why else would they change the rule ?

These indices aim to replicate the market. They’re not trying to pick stocks.

There is a serious argument for saying they fail to replicate the market if they structurally exclude trillions of dollars of it.

lenerdenator 18 minutes ago | parent [-]

They also exclude many other things that are of economic value, because they could cause structural or social harm in the markets.

jimjimjim an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I think deep cynicism is the correct mindset to have in the current financial/political climate.

noonething an hour ago | parent | prev [-]

;)

lovich 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Do you think it’s more or less likely that they will make the same change as the other benchmarks?

JumpCrisscross 2 hours ago | parent [-]

> Do you think it’s more or less likely that they will make the same change as the other benchmarks?

S&P has historically been more conservative. My personal guess is they won't adopt all of the proposals.

lovich an hour ago | parent [-]

But you think they’ll adopt some of these proposals that are in the benefit of these companies IPOing at the expense of large funds?

JumpCrisscross an hour ago | parent | next [-]

> they’ll adopt some of these proposals that are in the benefit of these companies IPOing at the expense of large funds?

Yes. And I see the argument for it. It’s hard to claim you represent the market if trillions of dollars are outside it for no reason other than newness or capital-structure weirdness. (I agree with excluding unprofitable companies.)

lenerdenator 16 minutes ago | parent [-]

There's quite a bit of money in, say, the cannabis business; do they have any representation in indices of note?

sersi an hour ago | parent | prev [-]

If the S&P adopt those rules would there be any index fund that is S&P without the new rules?

themafia 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Are you actually optimistic?

JumpCrisscross 2 hours ago | parent | next [-]

> Are you actually optimistic?

Not particularly. When I posted the request for comment to HN it got crickets [1].

Not enough people care about this. And the "safe" option has kind of shifted with the other index providers having moved first. That said, there were a lot of proposals and I'm not expecting all of them to be adopted.

[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48054324

loeg an hour ago | parent [-]

There's no obviously correct answer here.

raincole an hour ago | parent | prev [-]

A: posted a fact

B: but what about your emotions

Very glad to see HN stereotype being upended :)

AlexCoventry an hour ago | parent [-]

A: This has not happened yet. B: Are you actually optimistic that it won't?

That's a request for an opinion, not an emotion.

gruez 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

>and cut the seasoning window from 90 days to 5.

90 days or 5 days, it doesn't really matter because the float will be tiny due to the 6 month lockup. What kind of price discovery are we expecting that would happen in the other 85 days?

cortesoft 8 minutes ago | parent | next [-]

The indexes are weighted based on the float (at least most of them)... so a small float means they will buy a much smaller number of shares.

rlt a few seconds ago | parent [-]

I think that's the point the parent comment was making.

donbox an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-]

If it does not matter, then don't change it.

randbyte an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> it doesn't really matter because the float will be tiny due to the 6 month lockup.

Not really: https://www.reuters.com/legal/government/spacex-allow-early-...

HWR_14 12 minutes ago | parent | prev [-]

SpaceX is slowly and steadily increasing the float over the first 6 months by having a rolling end to the lockup. The only major cliff will be Elons shares

freetime2 an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I don't like this either, but from the article:

> Although Nasdaq has already shortened the “seasoning” period before index inclusion to 15 trading days and FTSE Russell has slashed its waiting time to five days (and S&P Dow Jones is reportedly considering something similar), most share indices weight firms in proportion to the value only of shares they have released for public trading (the “free float”). For SpaceX, this means just the $75bn or so of stock it intends to issue in June—so its initial weight in the S&P 500 will be around 0.1%. The NASDAQ 100 is an exception, and has changed its rules to weight companies at up to three times their free float, in an apparent effort to woo Mr Musk. Even so, SpaceX’s probable initial weight in this $40trn index will still only be around 0.5%.

So people who hold ETFs that track the S&P 500 probably don't have too much to worry about. People invested in the NASDAQ 100 probably have more to be outraged about - but then again I suppose if you're invested in the NASDAQ 100, you may be consider more exposure to SpaceX to be a good thing.

spikehoppins 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Do you have a source for the $30 million claim? It'd be nice to work out the math. Not _all_ of 401k funds / index funds are going to go to SpaceX.

JumpCrisscross 2 hours ago | parent | next [-]

> Do you have a source for the $30 million claim?

Index funds in total had about5 $7 trillion in 2021 [1].

[1] https://alexchinco.com/double-what-you-think-it-is.pdf

smallerize 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

*trillion

The 12 largest companies in the USA together have that market cap, so probably not.

chrisweekly 2 hours ago | parent [-]

yeah, trillion. 30m isn't even a vapor droplet.

jmyeet 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

You forgot the part where NASDAQ already enacted a rule change that normally prohibits small floats from index inclusion (and thus forced purchase by index funds), which was normally 10% [1]. SpaceX is only floating ~4.3% of their stock and they're triple-weighting it.

[1]: https://www.forbes.com/sites/garthfriesen/2026/04/25/spacex-...

jauntywundrkind 2 hours ago | parent [-]

Also worth asking what SpaceXLAI's plan is to make money. $22.7T of their $28.5T Total Addressable Market is... Drumroll... Enterprise AI! That's the plan, that's what we are investing in: spacex and Tesla and Twitter are all side shows, to sell AI. That's what everyone's absurdly overpriced forced passive investment is going to. https://bsky.app/profile/segyges.bsky.social/post/3mnan7hr2j...

There is nowhere near enough burning rage for this absurd fleecing of the public.

kevin_thibedeau an hour ago | parent | next [-]

AI in space, for all that sweet sweet latency.

smallerize 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

It's not only Grok, but also the robotics applications.

marcosdumay an hour ago | parent [-]

So... The US GDP in 2024 (the last one I found) was $27.8T...

They are planning to capture 100.7% of it?

fragmede 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

So the obvious thing to do, for someone that's got ~$3mm to play with, is to setup an ETF that is SP500 but with the old rules. If you can convince $40mm of other people's money to go into your not-specifically-Musk-less-but-just-happens-to-be ETF, they'd come out ahead.

roflulz 34 minutes ago | parent | next [-]

The S&P Shariah index fund is required to exclude SpaceX and already exists https://www.spglobal.com/spdji/en/indices/equity/sp-500-shar...

riffraff 2 minutes ago | parent | next [-]

[delayed]

decimalenough 3 minutes ago | parent | prev [-]

Why would a Shariah index fund have to exclude SpaceX?

sersi an hour ago | parent | prev [-]

Only $3mm needed?

willsmith72 an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-]

this is disgusting corruption, a direct wealth transfer from the many to the few. shame on everyone involved

kevin_thibedeau an hour ago | parent | next [-]

We need the opposition taking names for investigations in 2029. They're not all getting pardons.

lenerdenator 9 minutes ago | parent [-]

They're just as on the take as anyone.

Think about it: you have hundreds of thousands of pages of evidence that the hyper-wealthy may have trafficked minors across state and international borders. Only one person is in prison over it, and her cell gets upgrades.

35 years ago this would have been a slam dunk for the opposition party of any republic. Instead of standing ten toes down on it, opposition leaders are doing... what exactly? Going on with business-as-usual, for the most part. They should be attempting to add language to every single bill that comes across the floor to see more done. They aren't.

I think stock trading shenanigans are far lower on the list of moral outrages, particularly given Congress' predilection for insider trading.

mandeepj 41 minutes ago | parent | prev [-]

> this is disgusting corruption

The guy called 401(k)s a Ponzi scheme. Now, he's coming after them to loot.

d--b 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Wow, didn’t know that.

If SpaceX tanks and 401ks are left holding the bag, this could result in the biggest class action lawsuit ever.

Analemma_ 2 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Oh, SpaceX already has that covered: thanks to the TX legislature, SpaceX shareholders cannot file shareholder lawsuits, you can only complain to the "Texas Business Court" or get binding arbitration [0].

[0]: https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/newsletters/2026-05-21/spa...

d--b an hour ago | parent | next [-]

People can surely sue the index publishers for removing the safeguards, or the index funds to take more risks than they were mandated.

When money is lost in the order of billions, someone is getting sued.

edoceo an hour ago | parent [-]

Will take 6+ years and lots of fees lost to recover loss. Won't be anywhere close to made whole.

michaelmrose 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

This is optimistic about binding arbitration providing protection from more traditional remedies

s1artibartfast 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

why? the cards are on the table. If you buy a turd from me after I disclose the composition, that is on you

newshackr 2 hours ago | parent | next [-]

You can't sell these ETFs without incurring capital gains, potentially large. So it isn't really a choice.

bobsomers an hour ago | parent | next [-]

If it's actually your 401k, sure you can. Just today I rebalanced my retirement funds away from large cap stocks to avoid this steaming turd that Elon is dumping on the public.

andsoitis an hour ago | parent [-]

> Just today I rebalanced my retirement funds away from large cap stocks

Away from large cap stocks to what?

AlexCoventry an hour ago | parent | next [-]

For what it's worth, I think anything selling energy or fertilizer which is not sourced from the Middle East is a pretty good bet right now. Depends on how the US/Iran conflict plays out, of course, but I'm not optimistic.

edoceo an hour ago | parent | prev [-]

Small-cap, mid-cap and ex-US real estate? That's been floated in my circles - that and the 30 year.

cdash 7 minutes ago | parent | prev [-]

How is that their problem? That is an issue between you and the government.

d--b 26 minutes ago | parent | prev [-]

Sure, the problem is trust.

Regular people want to invest so they can make money and companies want people to invest so that they can raise money. So pretty much everybody wants the 401k money to be invested in the stock market.

But the issue is that investing in the stock market is very technical, so some smart asses invented the index funds to make it easy for daddy and mummy to put their retirement accounts to work.

The index has safeguards in place to try and reduce its volatilty. So people are happy, cause they are investing in stock without having to look closely at what it is they bought.

But if suddenly some people change the safeguard rule, so that their buddy can dump their overvalued stock over people who think they are investing relatively safely, then it can be argued that there is foul play.

People are not finance specialists and they are heavily incentivized to buy index funds, so they need to trust that the people who are telling them to invest are not hiding things from them. If that trust is broken, lawsuits will follow.

It’s like: imagine you own a Toyota and have a maintenance contract with Toyota, and one day you have your car serviced and they tell you they changed the brakes. They tell you the brand of the new brakes and they tell you it’s fine while in fact, they put some cheap garbage that fail after 100 km of driving.

When the brakes fail and your car falls off a cliff, you go and see them and they tell you: “yeah those brakes were bad, but we told you we put them in, you could have looked up that these were bad, it’s all over the internet, so that’s on you”.

lenerdenator 4 minutes ago | parent [-]

> People are not finance specialists and they are heavily incentivized to buy index funds, so they need to trust that the people who are telling them to invest are not hiding things from them. If that trust is broken, lawsuits will follow.

A "lawsuit" isn't a concern for the likes of Musk.

He's got the money to pay lawyers, politicians, and influencers. He's spread this risk around to the right people; if he goes down, they're going down with him, too.

At a certain point you have to start jailing people for long periods of time. I don't mean the Milken, Belfort, or Skilling treatment. I mean being placed away for 30+ years in medium-security facilities at the least.

Xunjin 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

If this is a bubble... The pop stage will be devastating...

nelox an hour ago | parent | next [-]

Listen to the author of “A Brief History of Financial Bubbles” argue why it probably isn’t a bubble:

https://api.substack.com/feed/podcast/260347/s/233172.rss

https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/conversations-with-col...

https://open.spotify.com/show/0Cj2lIpGxkrw1RFVIPTa6a?si=f41c...

deaux a minute ago | parent | next [-]

You mean "Listen to [someone who started on Wall Street at Lehman Brothers, joined PayPal in its earliest days and worked alongside Peter Thiel and Elon Musk, and eventually became a venture capitalist in Silicon Valley] argue why AI probably isn't a bubble".

OccamsMirror a minute ago | parent | prev [-]

Can you please summarize his argument?

01100011 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

We don't let bubbles pop anymore. We print money and borrow from the future so that no one loses money on their homes and retirement accounts. The GFC changed the rules.

freakynit an hour ago | parent | next [-]

[flagged]

calvinmorrison 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

except the last bubble pop hit fast and hard with post covid inflation.

BobbyJo an hour ago | parent [-]

It worked. The only people upset about it are young people who don't vote. If young people don't want a continual wealth transfer from them to the old, they need to start voting. That's been the case since 2008, and here we are a generation later.

IAmGraydon 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

It’s never going to happen because too many people want it to happen.

JumpCrisscross 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> If this is a bubble... The pop stage will be devastating...

Why? It could be sudden. It could be slow and gradual. I've seen no reason it needs to be one versus the other.

burnte 2 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Irrational exuberance rarely transitions to a rational drawn down. The minute the first selfish-actor flood-liquidates, everyone else will too. That's now runs work.

chrisweekly 2 hours ago | parent | next [-]

but this isn't "irrational exuberance", literally everyone I know paying and kind of attention has "rational dread".

hattmall an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-]

But where else will people put their money?

marcus_holmes an hour ago | parent | next [-]

Somewhere safe. Gold, usually.

thfuran an hour ago | parent | prev [-]

I heard daffodils are where it's at.

JumpCrisscross 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

[dead]

bawolff 30 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I mean, isn't the definition of a bubble that it pops quickly? If it slowly loses value over time, its not really a bubble.

JumpCrisscross 28 minutes ago | parent [-]

> isn't the definition of a bubble that it pops quickly?

There is no consistent definition of a bubble. We have no fundamental reason current valuations have to collapse suddenly.

bawolff 22 minutes ago | parent [-]

Is there any definition of bubble that doesn't involve popping? That's literally the metaphor.

> We have no fundamental reason current valuations have to collapse suddenly.

I would agree, but i think that is just saying that the current situation is potentially not a bubble. Which may be true. We will only find out after the fact.

tomrod 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Because it is deliberately extracting cash from Mom and Pop into the robber baron's wallets?

JumpCrisscross 2 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Okay? Why does that mean a devastating pop?

vermilingua 2 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Where were you in 2008?

JumpCrisscross 2 hours ago | parent [-]

It would be karmic if fleecing led to financial crises. It doesn’t. You’ve taken N = 1 and extrapolated it wildly.

michaelmrose 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Because traditionally the pop is delayed while those who realized most of the gains attempt to offload the risk to other parties. Whether this works or not at some point it becomes an inevitable and self reenforcing feedback loop.

Just investing less in risky things on the run up means you personally perform worse so even in known bubbles you don't see reasonable slow downs instead of disastrous pops.

JumpCrisscross an hour ago | parent [-]

> traditionally the pop is delayed while those who realized most of the gains attempt to offload the risk to other parties

What? Source? Plenty of investment bubbles pop before the bag is passed.

This thread involves a lot of people looking at something they don't like and presuming karmic forces will give them what they deserve. There is no reason these companies, even if massively overvalued, have to "pop."

That's fundamentally different from e.g. the financial crisis, or the 2023 bank collapses, or even the dot-com bubble. Those did not have the ability to self correct. There was no slow deflation other than through a bailout.

overfeed 9 minutes ago | parent | next [-]

> There is no reason these companies, even if massively overvalued, have to "pop."

This is a wild thing say without any qualification.

marcus_holmes an hour ago | parent | prev [-]

I'm genuinely curious why you say this is different from the dot-com bubble?

As I see it, this is the exact same situation - wildly overvalued companies based on investor exuberance, the underlying business is not capable of supporting this kind of valuation. IPO tends to be the crunch point at which this overvaluation is exposed. Once exposed, the valuation correction spreads to other similar businesses quickly and the bubble pops.

What's the self-correction ability that AI companies have?

JumpCrisscross 29 minutes ago | parent [-]

> genuinely curious why you say this is different from the dot-com bubble?

A lot more revenue. Dot coms were going public pre revenue. And Anthropic is profitable. Both it and SpaceX wouldn’t be dependent on further stock sales to stay alive—that lets them weather a downturn.

marcus_holmes 9 minutes ago | parent [-]

As I understand the situation, Anthropic is revenue-positive but not profitable. As usual, Ed Zitron covers this well [0].

As with the dot-com bubble, there is a lot of voodoo accountancy (and flat-out lies) about the actual situation here.

As I understand it, the basic problem is that the big three can't charge enough per token to cover costs because they're in competition with each other (and one of those is Google that can afford to buy market share using its other operating revenues), and the OSS/cheap Chinese models.

And this situation is unlikely to get better in the short term because building cheaper per-token capacity is very expensive and time-consuming.

[0] https://www.wheresyoured.at/anthropics-profitability-swindle...

dragontamer 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Why would that pop the bubble?

Robber Barrons existed from like 1860 through 1915 and extracted the wealth of many people, including Native American tribe lands.

Like this shit can keep going until we decide enough is enough and actually change our society.

tmp10423288442 2 hours ago | parent [-]

Not related - many robber barons went bankrupt in the severe economic crashes of the time, such as the Panics of 1873 and 1893. The Gilded Age continued despite bubbles popping.

HerbManic 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I mean if the blow back wasn't so horrible for a lot of people, I kind of respect just how creative the pump is on this one.

applfanboysbgon 2 hours ago | parent [-]

There is literally nothing creative about circumventing existing regulations. By definition of there already being rules in place to prevent them, the pump methods being used are already a known quantity. That those safeguards are being bypassed is just boring old corruption.

deadbabe 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

One thing I have come to realize, is that worrying about bubbles will keep you poor.

If everyone is in the bubble and it pops, everyone is in the same boat, so you’re not really going to be poorer than your peers by comparison.

If it’s not a bubble and you are wrong, you will fall way behind everyone else and just watch people get richer and richer doing the exact same thing you should have done.

Also, just because something is a bubble doesn’t mean it has to end in a devastating pop. Sometimes bubbles expand and then just get diffused. The exponential rise stops and prices plateau, but it just becomes a new normal and things stagnate for a while before resuming normal upward growth.

coliveira 2 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Ask Warren Buffet how concerned he was of "missing" on bubbles... He got richer than pretty much everybody else by just avoiding bubbles and then buying assets at fire sale prices when they inevitably popped.

2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]
[deleted]
grassfedgeek 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

This is such a scam.

SpaceX used its massive IPO and listing fees (and the prestige of being the largest IPO ever) as leverage. Index providers and exchanges saw financial incentives: listing fees, trading volume, data sales, and long-term revenue from asset managers. Reuters reported that SpaceX advisers contacted major index providers (including Nasdaq) to discuss early index entry, and that SpaceX was leaning toward listing on Nasdaq only if it got early inclusion in the Nasdaq 100.

The rules built to protect passive investors were waived:

- S&P 500’s 12-month seasoning and 4-quarter GAAP profitability requirement → waived

- Nasdaq’s seasoning window (90 trading days) → cut to 15

- FTSE Russell’s seasoning window → cut to 5 days

Meanwhile, Danish pension fund excludes SpaceX citing governance and valuation (Musk holds approximately 42.5% of the equity, but commands roughly 83-85% of total voting control): https://www.reuters.com/legal/transactional/danish-pension-f...

JumpCrisscross 2 hours ago | parent | next [-]

> S&P 500’s 12-month seasoning and 4-quarter GAAP profitability requirement → waived

S&P hasn’t announced a final rule change yet.

fluidcruft 2 hours ago | parent [-]

Yeah, right.

JumpCrisscross 2 hours ago | parent [-]

> Yeah, right

Yes. Literally right.

fluidcruft an hour ago | parent [-]

Are you seriously under the illusion S&P is second guessing or reconsidering its plans? There's no evidence of that.

JumpCrisscross an hour ago | parent [-]

> the illusion S&P is second guessing or reconsidering its plans?

There is no second guessing because no decision has been made. A consultation was put out. I’m expecting it will be adopted in parts. Like, the market hasn’t priced in a full rebalancing.

lokar 15 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-]

And CRSP (VTI)

coliveira 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

People buying into space x are basically telling Musk to do anything he wants with their money, no questions asked...

an hour ago | parent | prev [-]
[deleted]