| ▲ | tancop 2 hours ago |
| if theres just one good thing coming out of ai its breaking copyright law forever. no one should be able to "own" ideas. royalties for commercial use is another thing and i support it but what we know as (non commercial) piracy and unlicensed fan art should be 100% legal |
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| ▲ | kibwen 2 hours ago | parent | next [-] |
| Then go ahead and abolish copyright for everyone. Instead we're stuck in an even worse system where the hypercorporations gleefully plagiarize everyone else while sending SWAT teams to kill anyone who pirates a movie. |
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| ▲ | 9 minutes ago | parent | next [-] | | [deleted] | |
| ▲ | Salgat 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Obviously there's an ideal middle ground, but what LLMs do is allow free transfer of knowledge while still (mostly) preserving the protections that copyright should be protecting. For example, I can have an LLM give me the entire plot of a book (which is fine), but it won't spit out an exact copy of the book. | |
| ▲ | rkozik1989 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Jesus is just an uncopyrighted Mickey Mouse if you have no morals. People have been abusing that fact for a long time and have made some pretty abhorrent products. |
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| ▲ | kube-system 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Copyright specifically doesn't and never did protect "ideas", it protects expression. |
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| ▲ | vaylian an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| The biggest problem is not the broken commercialization, but the broken attribution. People should be recognized, when they create art. Art is an important way of how we humans express ourselves. |
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| ▲ | caconym_ 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| I wonder how many of the books I love would still have been written in a world where somebody could scoop them all up and post them on the internet for free (and run ads). |
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| ▲ | _aavaa_ 2 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | I wonder how many would be written if copyright was only 20 years instead of more than a century? To the point that most people will never be legally allowed to directly build off of the culture they grew up in. Lord of the rings will be under copyright til roughly 2050. I think Tolkien's estate has gotten more than enough money from that book and it's time to let other use the word hobbit without the threat of a lawsuit. | | |
| ▲ | caconym_ 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | > I wonder how many would be written if copyright was only 20 years instead of more than a century? I expect it would not move the needle much. I support reduced copyright periods, though not in the specific way you do. But that's not what we're talking about here, is it? The comment I replied to seemed to be advocating for total
abolition of copyright law, and my comment is written to be interpreted in that context. > To the point that most people will never be legally allowed to directly build off of the culture they grew up in. What specifically are you talking about? Every author borrows from what came before. Copyright law doesn't even enter the picture in the vast majority of cases, because you generally don't have to copy to "build off of the culture [you] grew up in". | | |
| ▲ | _aavaa_ 38 minutes ago | parent [-] | | For what it’s worth I think abolishing copyright wouldn’t have as big of an impact on art production as you do. Most artists (e.g. musicians or authors) aren’t struggling because their art is popular but copied by others (or lack of copyright). But because nobody listens to or reads their work. Even before AI more people tried to be an author/musician than could ever hope to gain even financial success. I don’t think less copyright will dissuade them. > every author borrows Borrows yes. But that has changed drastically in the last 100 years because of what has become the copyright system. I’ll be long dead and gone before people can make and publish their own LOTR, or Star Wars, or whatever franchise they grew up with. Disney would be impossible to start given the current regulations, all those tales would be locked up, and we would all be worse for it. |
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| ▲ | Snafuh an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Simple piraciy is not even the worst possible outcome. Without copyright, nothing stops one from simply selling a book under their own name. Big publishers could just reprint anything and get it into brick & mortar stores. No money for authors. Advocating for absolutely no copyright is wild. | |
| ▲ | nashashmi 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | The worthwhile ones would still be written. Even if they are not enjoyable. The dissemination of ideas from an activist perspective is uninhibitable | | |
| ▲ | caconym_ 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | > The worthwhile ones would still be written. Citation needed, as well as your precise definition of "worthwhile". > Even if they are not enjoyable. Huh? > The dissemination of ideas from an activist perspective is uninhabitable Yes, I understand that anti-copyright activists want to abolish copyright. | | |
| ▲ | nashashmi an hour ago | parent | next [-] | | Farenheit 451 is a book with the same theme. | |
| ▲ | runarberg an hour ago | parent | prev [-] | | You are arguing in theoreticals, so you should not be surprised if your answers are hypotheticals. In reality most art is done because the artist has something to say, and the money they get from it is only motivating in as much as it enables the artist to do more art. So I would guess in a world without copyright protection we would just find other ways to pay artists and a very similar amount of art would be produced. You can see an example of this e.g. in Iceland where the market is way to small for art aimed at the domestic market to make enough money solely by selling it (possible with music; rare with books; not possible with movies). Instead the state has an extensive “artist salary“ program, which pays artist regardless of how well the art they produce sells. Unsurprisingly Iceland produces a lot of art and has many working artists. |
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| ▲ | nearbuy an hour ago | parent | prev [-] | | People have been pirating books online for 20 years and in that time the number of books published per year has increased 15-fold. A number of my favorites have been released in that time. |
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| ▲ | deaton 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| This is an incredibly naive view of intellectual property. If you cannot own things you create, there is little incentive to create and share those things. Do you think any of your favorite movies and TV shows ever get made without copyright protections? Of course not, because money needs to change hands for those things to be funded. |
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| ▲ | ux266478 a minute ago | parent | next [-] | | Is it the pursuit accumulating capital (incentive to profit) or merely to fund something? You switch from the former to the latter. Why do you believe that profit is reliant on copyright? Piracy is so widespread that copyright may as well not exist (in the context of the consumption of media) outside of moralizing rhetoric, and yet insane profits are made all the same. I cannot at all relate to being so devoid of passions in all categories but the accumulation of capital. If we are to justify copyright and the concept of intellectual property writ large, then as far as I can see its only real usecase is in defending against precisely the people who are possessed by an obsession with capital, those dragons who merely care to see their hoard grow larger. Unfortunately, that's not how these systems are structured in our society. The transferability of intellectual property all but warps the idea into something that instead empowers those it should disarm. | |
| ▲ | StableAlkyne an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | > If you cannot own things you create, there is little incentive to create and share those things How do you explain the creative works of writing, music, and art that existed in the millennia of human history between the Mesopotamians and the Enlightenment era? | | |
| ▲ | bjt 14 minutes ago | parent | next [-] | | They tended to be solo productions, or sponsored by aristocratic patrons. Anyone suggesting that we could create movies, TV, music, or games on the scale we do today, without copyright, does not seem worth taking seriously. | |
| ▲ | jaccola an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Copying was prohibitively expensive. | | |
| ▲ | StableAlkyne 13 minutes ago | parent | next [-] | | The original statement was about there being little incentive to create a work you don't "own" Difficulty in copying is irrelevant to owning it. Moreover, this does not address music or spoken word. A pre-copyright musician can just listen to a piece and play it in the next town over. A poet or storyteller can just memorize a work and retell it. | |
| ▲ | 16 minutes ago | parent | prev [-] | | [deleted] |
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| ▲ | Terr_ an hour ago | parent | prev [-] | | I support copyright reform, but that history has a large portion of "get lucky while sucking-up to the local rich dudes for a patron", which... isn't ideal either. |
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| ▲ | marssaxman an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Yes, absolutely, and that is why history shows so few examples of any art having been created prior to the invention of copyright: nobody had any reason to do it. | | |
| ▲ | dmitrygr an hour ago | parent [-] | | Prior to the invention of copyright, it was not very cheap or easy to make a faithful copy of something. Books had to be type set by hand, before the printing press they had to be copied by hand. Photography of good enough quality to reproduce a painting is very very recent. So is ability to record a play well enough to enjoy it like you are there later. | | |
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| ▲ | foobar1726 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | You should check out this thing called open source software | | |
| ▲ | bachmeier an hour ago | parent | next [-] | | > You should check out this thing called open source software Open source actually demonstrates that copyright serves a purpose. There are still customers for non-open software, even when open alternatives exist, so the ability to monetize brings new offerings to the economy. | |
| ▲ | deaton 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Open source software is unique in that it takes little to no capital investment to create. People post free art too. It doesn't mean that Game of Thrones didn't cost anything to produce. | |
| ▲ | koonsolo an hour ago | parent | prev [-] | | You should check out this thing called GPL that is the standard license of open source projects like Linux, and heavily depends on copyright laws. Or are you suggesting open source software is public domain? | | |
| ▲ | 4chandaily 26 minutes ago | parent [-] | | You may want to review your history. The GPL is copyleft -it only exists to subvert copyright law by using it against itself in a sort of intellectual legal judo. If "IP" laws were not as they were, there would be no need for the GPL. Software would be Free. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copyleft | | |
| ▲ | mitthrowaway2 3 minutes ago | parent | next [-] | | Even if companies didn't have copyright protection on their source code, that doesn't mean they'd post it all on the internet for anybody to freely download. | |
| ▲ | koonsolo 17 minutes ago | parent | prev [-] | | You are not a developer so you don't understand you can compile to a binary without revealing your sources? No copyright -> No GPL -> anyone can release their own close source version of open source software. Why do you think GPL was create in the first place? We always had public domain you know. | | |
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| ▲ | nehal3m 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | This is naive in the opposite. Creators gonna create. | | |
| ▲ | modriano an hour ago | parent | next [-] | | Creators can only create as long as they can sustain the costs of creating (including opportunity cost). | |
| ▲ | Jtarii an hour ago | parent | prev [-] | | Who is giving a creator millions of dollars to create something if there is no guaranteed path to recouping production costs. Are we going the communist soviet union route where everything is decided by central committee? | | |
| ▲ | nehal3m an hour ago | parent | next [-] | | That is not the only scale to create on. Also, Linux is free. There’s more than one way to make something available. | | |
| ▲ | Jtarii an hour ago | parent | next [-] | | Just a fundamental disagreement then. I want to live in the world that created The Lord of the Rings. | |
| ▲ | koonsolo an hour ago | parent | prev [-] | | Linux is clearly not public domain as it has a GPL license. And GPL heavily depends on copyright laws. |
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| ▲ | epicide an hour ago | parent | prev [-] | | Capitalists who capitalize on creative outlets need capital to incentivize them to do so. It's basically circular. Those of us who create for creation's sake need no other reason. I create because I want to, not because I want to use it to gain capital. Sure, those lines get muddy when you want to do it professionally, but that's a separate argument. | | |
| ▲ | Jtarii an hour ago | parent | next [-] | | >Those of us who create for creation's sake need no other reason. I create because I want to, not because I want to use it to gain capital. How do you create without capital? To make a film you need a camera crew, a sound crew, set designers, caterers, a director, scriptwriters. A world without professional creatives is so much poorer than the world we already have. Why would you give it up just for some vague notion of ideological purity. | | |
| ▲ | epicide an hour ago | parent [-] | | You absolutely do not need a camera crew, a sound crew, set designers, and caterers to make a film. You need a director and scriptwriters, but those can be the same person. Do many film sets have all those? Absolutely. But one can still make a film without them. Some of the best films ever created were mostly the product of one person with a budget less than half that of the average car. Would you be able to create big-budget movies without said big budget? Of course not. I obviously like some of those too, but who's to say that the larger budget made them better? It feels like you're conflating art creation with art business, but they are not the same thing. | | |
| ▲ | Jtarii an hour ago | parent [-] | | I suppose you are okay with all animated films being impossible to create then. >I obviously like some of those too, but who's to say that the larger budget made them better? If you legitimately believe something like 2001: A Space Odyssey would be as good with a budget of $10,000 then that just seems delusional. The world you want is one in which the only people who can create things are people who are wealthy by other means, there is no pathway for a talented but poor kid to go from making home movies to working on films without IP laws. They must abandon their dreams and go work in the coal mines or whatever. It is dystopian. I want the most amount of people possible to be able to work as professional creatives because it enriches my life and the lives of everyone in the country I live in. |
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| ▲ | jonathanstrange an hour ago | parent | prev [-] | | The point is that without copyright you can' do it professionally. Someone will just sell whatever you created for you and you will not get a cent from it. |
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| ▲ | enraged_camel 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | >> If you cannot own things you create, there is little incentive to create and share those things. You do realize people created and shared things long before copyright became a thing, right? | | |
| ▲ | Jtarii an hour ago | parent [-] | | Can you explain how something like the Lord of the Rings film series gets created in a world with no IP laws. | | |
| ▲ | seandoe an hour ago | parent | next [-] | | Many versions are made, the best ones get the most views. You don't need huge budgets and guaranteed revenue to make great art. In fact, I'd argue it's often the opposite. Most big budget movies suck these days. | | |
| ▲ | Jtarii an hour ago | parent [-] | | Where is the money coming from? Who is financing the production? |
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| ▲ | an hour ago | parent | prev [-] | | [deleted] |
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| ▲ | gagan2020 an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Can we do that for Medical field? Like if we know formulation of drug then drug (+ any smaller modification - through AI) could be new formulation. That will break current Medical patent system. |
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| ▲ | jaccola an hour ago | parent [-] | | This is how the drug industry already works. I don’t think there’s any evidence “AI” (LLM) is capable of producing valid drug modifications. | | |
| ▲ | gagan2020 an hour ago | parent [-] | | In current status AI models cannot do that. But, if they do then it will break Medical Patent model. |
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| ▲ | Bombthecat 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Yeah, I think we are at the point where copyright doesn't exist anymore, at least for AI |
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| ▲ | hectdev 2 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | All of human knowledge (an exaggeration, I know) at our finger tips. It's the most punk rock, anarchist thing tech has done since the internet and it's funny it's shaped as a product. | | |
| ▲ | ses1984 2 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | If you get the impression of punk and anarchy, it's only because you're not looking any deeper than the veneer. Underneath, it's nothing like punk or anarchy. | | |
| ▲ | hectdev an hour ago | parent [-] | | I'm considering the dispersement of tech. 3D printers disrupt needing to buy widgets from big companies and local llms disrupt needing to buy generalize software when you can make your own bespoke. AI will live on long after the big corporations burn out their money coffers. |
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| ▲ | account42 an hour ago | parent | prev [-] | | Sure, a few mega-corporations of the scale to upset entire markets owning all information and renting it out as they see fit is very punk. A cyberpunk dystopia specifically. | | |
| ▲ | hectdev an hour ago | parent [-] | | If you consider the local llm scene which is closing the gaps, mega corporations become less possessive of all information. |
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| ▲ | jaccola an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | What? If I want to read Harry Potter or watch The Matrix an AI cannot produce something equally as good for me. So I need to pay those people, or break the law. For lots of online knowledge/blogs I guess it is true but even here I often read explainer blogs because AI casts everything in a certain narrative/tone that isn’t always appropriate. | |
| ▲ | gspr 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | This is insane. How will any intellectual or artistic work be sustainable in this world? As a teenager I used to proclaim that "you can't own bits, maaaan" all the time. I've since grown up. Intellectual property is essential to safeguarding intellectual work. I'm not saying this out of greed – I'm a vocal advocate for the free software movement. It, too, relies on a semi-sane framework of intellectual property. So do Hollywood studios. So do the makers of AI (well, since they're not actually sustainable at all currently, I guess you can say they don't rely on anything). | | |
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| ▲ | groundzeros2015 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| The alternative to strong property rights and norms is secrecy and enforcement. |
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| ▲ | gspr 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | This is a strictly worse world in almost every sense. It's as if we abolished physical property rights and suggested people arm themselves to keep what is (was) theirs instead. Civilization, gone. | | |
| ▲ | beering 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | It’s a false equivalence to say that intellectual property is property. Taking your car deprives you of your car. Taking your idea lets civilization advance. | | |
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| ▲ | 0rganize 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| lol, never going to happen. I remember when the RIAA was successfully able to shake down tens of thousands of individuals for pirating music in the 2000s. If you’re a pleb, stealing copyrighted materials will get you some nasty fines, lawsuits and criminal charges. If you’re a megacorp with unlimited buckets of cash, then there is no accountability. |
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| ▲ | gspr 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| So if you pour your heart and soul into writing a novel over the course of years, and it becomes modestly successful earning you a little money in return for your sweat, I should be allowed to just copy it, give it away for free (hell, even say I wrote it – it's not as if it's even yours to own in your world)? |
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| ▲ | runarberg 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-] |
| I think you may be too optimistic about the state of affairs under capitalism. Very rarely do things change which don't benefit the owning class without direct action from the working class that puts adequate pressure on the rich, i.e actions which threatens their profits. |