The brazenly corrupt also own the vast media ecosystem that can help swing elections. Should we all know better? Probably. But they control the education system too, so…

Hard to say for certain. Though I do think it goes both ways. People at the bottom influence culture from bottom up, folks at the top from the top down.

It really doesn’t. Trump wouldn’t survive election if the electorate didn’t seek, or at least tolerate whatever the hell you can call that. Americans will conveniently point fingers at him (as is their political tradition) but he’s a consequence of a much deeper disease.

Trump was not the beginning of the decline, only the terminal symptom.

[flagged]

You don't need "virtue", "honour", and "duty" to have NOT have voted the way people did. It is plain to see which chosen leader will torch the nation and which will not, regardless of people's distaste for the establishment politicians.

It is worse than self interest. It is brazen ignorance.

> You don’t act honourably because that will “get you ahead”. You act honourably because it is right.

As much as I would like to believe that’s true I don’t think it is.

You act honourably because society incentivises you to. To act dishonourably is to be disadvantaged, to be shamed, to be cast out. That is the part that’s missing today.

> You act honourably because it is right.

Well, and because it's not typically fatal in very short order.

The problem comes in when honor makes you a target to erase by people more powerful than you. Being dead right gets you nowhere.

> The old adage that the people elect the governance they deserve; comes to

this idea has always bothered me. i think people (even ones i disagree with) deserve better.

Everyone has an anecdote of the immigrant they know who's a much better "American" in their values. The same for anecdotes of the people with the least American values being home grown and inbred

None of those corrupt leaders is from elsewhere. And native born americans have higher criminality then immigrants.

All of that corrupt leadership is celebrated by american americans who see themselves as true americans.

[flagged]

Corporations don’t follow or care about morals, and so their customers and workers begin to follow suit.

perhaps not, but cynicism in kind is understandable when you have no real power to effect change.

Yup, and that requires extra labor to fulfill, which will cost money. Luckily, I haven't heard anyone complain about high prices of groceries lately, so I'm sure everyone would be fine with that.

What a disgusting take. Leftists such as yourself are beyond the pale. Luigi murdered someone in cold blood. You can civil society like that. Leftists are always going fascists but I don’t they have a problem with fascism. Their only issue is that they want you to be the fascists. How can you not see how a civil society cannot exist if we follow your ideology? It’s fine as long as it happens to people you disagree with politically. Idiocy.

Are they being honest? Did Princeton students not need proctoring in the past because the had no means to cheat, or they both maintained some honor, and fear of the institution.

Cheating was always easy.

And your types are the same that would see a cashier who steals $100 go to jail....

But a manager who edits timecards of 10 people for $100 ($1000 damage) is just a civil matter.

Crime, and who punishes it, has always been a political matter. The crimes have never been equal for those with power other others.

My feeling is people in west extrapolate asian within group variations into whole. Rich international students who invest in western degrees as pay-to-win not representative / sampling bias vs whole. Reality is international students pay for degree, university accommodates, lack of language proficiency = they'll visibly "cheat" more (i.e. patch writing) to get what's theirs, but those conditions to specific subculture/cohort. Broad statistically show western institutions has like 15-50% plagiarism/cheating rates, most of which just get swept under rug because academic misconduct not elevated officially to keep misconduct stats at ~1%. For reference PRC plagiarism data (CNKI / big data audit used to sweep through tertiary thesis) was like ~10%.

I suppose one conclusion is academically inclined East Asians cheat less in aggregate... because broadly you can't cheat national examinations (yes there are very elaborate cheating rings, but this should only reinforce it's not easy / trivial). The ones who buys academic performance, i.e. dummies who can't hack PRC tertiary and has to go western tertiary (including Ivys) cheat more than baseline. But broadly west cheats more... but institutions minimize misconduct stats because incentivized to cover/underreport/juke stats to protect brand.

No, it is culture, not race. A friend of mine (half asian, half white) and by happenstance devot christian got his graduate degree at a top 3 school in the US, and he was shocked the international student brazenness in cheating. He reported it and it was brushed under the rug, and this severely disillusioned my friend. Every professor I know reports this cultural difference.

And obviously we see it with SDE interivews with 1point3acres and the other "interview study" sites and AI tools.

It’s more commonly posted here these days, but this has always been on this site. Just usually couched “better”

Nobody said that. Yes, Princeton was founded by Presbyterians and that was a huge influence on ethical norms there. But most of the white people at Princeton aren't Calvinists either, and any that are would tell you that literally nobody is pure and honest.

Do you have any data to support your disappointment? There seems to be data supporting the GP's observation, which is different than your crude strawman.

It's not unreasonable to look for fire when you smell smoke.

"A 2016 study of more than 100 UK universities by The Times found that non-EU students were four times more likely to be caught cheating than UK and EU students. In the US, they were found to be five times as likely to be caught cheating than their local peers, according to a Wall Street Journal analysis of data from 14 leading US colleges." https://studyinternational.com/news/the-complex-problem-of-a...

"Public universities in the U.S. recorded 5.1 reports of alleged cheating for every 100 international students, versus one report per 100 domestic students, in a Wall Street Journal analysis" https://www.wsj.com/articles/foreign-students-seen-cheating-...

In 2015, 4,540 international students were enrolled at Iowa. Of those, 2,797 were from China. That’s 9 percent of the school’s student body. Most or all of the students accused of cheating are Chinese nationals. https://www.reuters.com/investigates/special-report/college-...

That is not what I wrote - there was no judgement, just that other cultures weigh cheating morally different.

It is all moralities. There is no absolute one.

Also the right wing love to ignore every single bit of their own crimes.

It's like the idea that those that voted for Trump have never committed misdemeanors cannot even be discussed, when the actual crime statistics show that yea, they are just as apt to load up the steaks and walk out of the store.

But I will say they've done a damned good job controlling the conversation so it's not brought up in the first place.

If you can’t understand the difference, I’m honestly impressed you remembered your password.

Statistically maybe half the people who voted for Bill Clinton are already dead.

I'm no fan of Clinton, but pretending that he's even remotely as bad as Trump only confirms how leftists see people on the right.

To be clear, I do not live in America. Not every place in the world has wantonly abandoned the social contract.

Everything changes when people no longer feel bound to it, so it's an outcome you should rather desire to avoid. Some examples are the shoplifting mentioned in the article, Luigi Mangione, or the guy who threw molotovs at Altman's mansion. The justice system is a mutual agreement to forsake violence owing to the belief that conflicts and grievances can be mediated in a peaceful manner. If that belief dies, if people believe the justice system and government can not be trusted to deliver justice to violators of the social contract and compensation to the wronged, then people will take matters into their own hands by any means necessary. It is not a pretty state of affairs, but perhaps the people who initially disregarded the contract might've considered that before disposing of it.