| ▲ | Maryland citizens hit with $2B power grid upgrade for out-of-state AI(tomshardware.com) |
| 218 points by lemonberry 9 hours ago | 82 comments |
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| ▲ | anonymousiam 7 hours ago | parent | next [-] |
| It seems that big money can overrule local government regulators at will. Here in Nevada, (Warran Buffet owned) NV Energy already has approval for a "Demand Charge" that will increase rates for everyone, and further reduce the ridiculously low amount of money that consumers get for selling their excess solar power back to the grid. The regulators didn't even resist, but there has now been so much backlash that they're finally scheduling public hearings after the fact. The announcement doesn't even mention the Demand Charge by name, and many consumers aren't even aware they they're about to be screwed. One of the more obscene things about this new charge is that people with PV arrays will pay a fee for demanding more power from their own grid-tied systems. https://www.nvenergy.com/publish/content/dam/nvenergy/bill_i... |
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| ▲ | robotbikes 4 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | A lot of these rules happen at the regulatory level so lawmakers don't typically understand them in depth and get a lot of their explanations from utility lobbyists or the regulatory agency itself, if they even get involved or pay attention. The dramatic increases being directly linked to data centers is big enough for consumers to notice though. That's why these independent counsels are pretty important such as the Maryland agency mentioned in this article. Since utilities at least on the distribution side are pretty much monopolies people have no choice but to pay the agreed rate. | |
| ▲ | JuniperMesos 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | As a YIMBYist who can't afford a house where I live, I actively want big money to overrule local government regulators at will, because big money developers make their big money by building houses and local regulators are responding to the NIMBYist concerns of ordinary homeowners that result in insufficient housing getting built. A local government regulator fighting for the interests of local homeowners does not necessarily do what is in my own long-term interest, and I don't necessarily want them to win against big money. > Here in Nevada, (Warran Buffet owned) NV Energy already has approval for a "Demand Charge" that will increase rates for everyone, and further reduce the ridiculously low amount of money that consumers get for selling their excess solar power back to the grid. Excess solar power generated by ordinary consumers is probably being priced correctly - excess solar power generation happens during the day when the sun is high, which means there's a glut of power because everyone with a solar panel generates a lot then. Solar power is scarcer and therefore more expensive when the sun is not shining bright, and this is not the time when customers are selling excess power back to the grid. Generous rates for buying power from customers were an effective subsidy to get people to install home solar panel systems, and that subsidy works less and less well as more and more power on the grid gets generated via solar panels and the difference in grid-wide power availability at different times based on the height of the sun becomes more and more important. | | |
| ▲ | tokioyoyo 5 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | There's 'big money' and, there's also "BIG MONEY". Former doesn't always win against the government, the latter pretty much overrules anything. | |
| ▲ | hnthrowaway0315 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | The super riches are already winning so many times. The US is missing regulations, and at the same time over-regulate areas that it should not. | |
| ▲ | oivey an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | > Excess solar power generated by ordinary consumers is probably being priced correctly Do you have any evidence for this position? Is this just regulations giving you bad vibes? I’m pretty sure everyone was quite aware the sun doesn’t shine at night whenever the previous rules and regulations were written. Your analysis isn’t breaking new ground. | |
| ▲ | light_hue_1 40 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | > As a YIMBYist who can't afford a house where I live, I actively want big money to overrule local government regulators at will, because big money developers make their big money by building houses and local regulators are responding to the NIMBYist concerns of ordinary homeowners that result in insufficient housing getting built. A local government regulator fighting for the interests of local homeowners does not necessarily do what is in my own long-term interest, and I don't necessarily want them to win against big money. I am A YIMBY too. But no, big money is not on your side. Big money wants to make money, not make your life better. It would like to build as much as possible for as little as possible, at the lowest quality possible, and sell it for an extremely high price. This isn't good for any of us. | |
| ▲ | PeterStuer 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Typical: YIMBY that does not own a back yard. Makes it just another YIYBY. | |
| ▲ | moistoreos 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Hey bud, do you happen to know when the demand for power is the highest? It happens to be.... gasp.... when the sun is highest in the sky. Just take a look at ERCOT's website:
https://www.ercot.com/gridmktinfo/dashboards/supplyanddemand | | |
| ▲ | JuniperMesos an hour ago | parent | next [-] | | No, the chart you posted clearly shows that in Texas demand for power is highest at around 5-6pm, which is decidedly not when the sun is highest in the sky - it's when the sun is setting and the workday is ending but people are still active and doing things, many of which require electric power - perhaps more electric power than they would use during the workday depending on what the thing is. This is precisely the Duck Curve observation (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duck_curve) - which was originally coined with respect to the California electricity market but is applicable in many other markets. | |
| ▲ | harry19023 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | That's just not true. Here's the California grid from yesterday: https://www.gridstatus.io/live/caiso?date=2026-05-09 Peak demand is 6 PM when everyone gets home from work and turns on the air conditioning. EDIT: Your chart shows the same thing? Demand is highest at 6 pm, not noon. | | |
| ▲ | moistoreos 4 hours ago | parent [-] | | Ah, yes. California. Where large swathes of costal areas hover between 60ºF and 80ºF. We are talking about Nevada the weather of locality matters and where it can be supremely hot. | | |
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| ▲ | DANmode 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | > further reduce the ridiculously low amount of money that consumers get for selling their excess solar power back to the grid. Batteries are cheaper every week. Time to build kWh Victory gardens. | | | |
| ▲ | idontwantthis 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | It’s not clear to me that the demand charge will cause bills to increase at all and, on its face, it makes sense to charge separately for peak power consumption as well as total energy consumption. | | |
| ▲ | jonhohle 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | As someone with a demand charge, let me disagree. The worst single hour out of 60-70 throughout the month is used and in my market it’s about $19/kw demand. Turn on the AC once during that period, $80. Happen to have to have an oven or microwave going at the same time, you’re probably over $100. For one hour on one day of the month. Once you screw your month, you’re free to do it the rest of the month, but it only takes once. | | |
| ▲ | idontwantthis 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | What you have described is an obviously terrible system that doesn’t incentivize lower power consumption. That’s not how it’s going to work in Nevada. It will be the highest 15 minute period of each day, so if you spread out your power usage you have room to game the rates and save money. And if you have a bad day it will only cost you a dollar or two and the next day is fresh. Plus it’s not on top of the total consumption. The consumption rate is getting cut so that people should be paying roughly the same amount as before. |
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| ▲ | Gibbon1 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Friend of mine used to work in that space. He said there were people who were trying to do their job making sure the rate payers interests were being looked after. And people whose only interest was sucking up to the utilities in hope that they'll be rewarded by an offer to switch sides. | |
| ▲ | seany 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | One more reason to go off grid | |
| ▲ | leonidasrup 8 minutes ago | parent | prev [-] | | It's not obscene it's economics - supply and demand. In power grid dominated by solar production the value of MWh of electricity is highest at night (because the supply from solar is zero), the value MWh of electricity is lowest at noon (because the supply from solar is maximal). So the residential grid-tied PV system is supplying power when the value of electricity is low and consuming power when the value of electricity is high. Better solution than fix rates are digital smart meters which calculate using variable rates from electricity market. | | |
| ▲ | developerDan 3 minutes ago | parent [-] | | Yes it’s economics, but that doesn’t exempt it from being “obscene” if that is how one sees it. |
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| ▲ | timmg 8 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| It's not clear from the article whether this is just datacenters -- or if that is just the convenient boogeyman. The grid operator for the northeast, according to my Governor, has been well-behind in building out infrastructure. Of course new datacenters cause more load. But so do new houses (we're building as many as we can) and electric cars, etc. |
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| ▲ | 3eb7988a1663 6 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | It is not entirely wrong. Annual electricity consumption per capita in Maryland has been falling since 2005[0]. Unless a bunch of aluminum smelting plants have come online in the past 18 months, data centers do seem the appropriate root cause leading to a surge in demand. [0] https://www.eia.gov/states/MD/data/dashboard/electricity cannot drop a direct link, but you can expand the "Total electricity consumption per capita, annual" chart | | |
| ▲ | timmg 5 hours ago | parent [-] | | There’s another chart on that page that shows regional demand for electricity. That seems to have flattened or dropped. Not sure how to explain that, in the context of data center demand. Maybe I’m reading something wrong. Or maybe there is an anticipated increase in demand? | | |
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| ▲ | FuckButtons 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Electricity usage in N.America / Europe has been static for the last ~20 years. |
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| ▲ | bogometer 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Even in Texas' "disconnected" grid, we're seeing the same mess. Oncor is currently staring down a mind-boggling 350 GW in data center requests - to put that in perspective, that's more than triple ERCOT's entire peak demand. They’re now pivoting to a $47 billion infrastructure spree just to keep up, and they’ve already pushed through a $560 million rate hike to help foot the bill. It’s the same story as Maryland: no matter how the local market is structured, residential ratepayers are the ones getting squeezed to subsidize the massive high-voltage buildouts these AI projects require. One benefit: the increased human interaction pulls me away from the terminal. Door-to-door power salesmen now have a regular relationship with my Nest doorbell, warning me of the impending "AI-pocalypse" because ratepayers in Dallas are going to be the ones subsidizing the West Texas buildout. |
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| ▲ | LastTrain 3 hours ago | parent [-] | | Why “even” in Texas? I would say “even outside of Texas” is more appropriate. |
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| ▲ | jd3 an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| I wrote a multi-page essay about this for our condo association last year. There's lots of complexity and externalities here — Pepco grid modernization, PJM interconnection cap auctions, AI buildouts in NOVA, etc; it's a really complicated issue. |
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| ▲ | claw-el 9 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| I am curious how electricity is priced. Why are more and more utility providers charge based on ‘infrastructure cost’ or ‘fixed platform fee’ instead of usage fee? |
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| ▲ | twunde 7 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Within the US, energy prices for are typically split into supply and distribution rates with taxes and fees added to each of these. There are typically a large number of these fees that are passed through to the consumer, but just are bundled together to reduce confusion. An example fee is one for keeping power plants idle as extra capacity for when it's needed. Electricity has a nationwide market with different prices for spot prices vs long term although if you are big enough you can also get a direct contract to hedge your energy supply prices. The complaint here is that PJM is spending money on upgrading the long range wires and passing that fee in a way that's not calculated for usage but instead it's likely divided evenly amongst member states. If you're upgrading wires in PA why should Maryland pay for that? These would taking in new/higher fees being passed to consumers. The long range transmission lines are different than short term transmission lines. The long range ones appear someone to hit electricity from a power plant in California for a business in Baltimore. | | |
| ▲ | londons_explore 9 minutes ago | parent [-] | | And the counterpoint is that for the resident of Maryland, paying a little now to upgrade long distance transmission lines will save them money in the long run, because it will allow them to benefit from cheap solar power from California in the evenings and cheap solar from new York in the mornings. More transmission = more places to find lower prices. |
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| ▲ | derf_ 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | > Why are more and more utility providers charge based on ‘infrastructure cost’ or ‘fixed platform fee’ instead of usage fee? Because unlike many commodities, electricity, once generated, is hard to store, yet supply must match demand in real time. You need to meet peak demand, even if normal usage is not as high. If you pay purely for usage, that might not send enough price signals to ensure that you have the necessary capacity when you need it. https://www.canarymedia.com/articles/enn/explainer-how-capac... has a more detailed overview of how markets are being structured to provide capacity, separate from actual generation. | | |
| ▲ | claw-el 3 hours ago | parent [-] | | Hmmm, if you take a brick and mortar store, they have fixed costs to renovate and decorate the store, and they likely have capacity of the store that is not used during non-peak period as well. They charge for item sold, to cover for all costs they incurred for capacity of the store even during non-peak period as well. Is this an equivalent comparison? Don’t businesses generally roll in the fixed costs into their price and charge per unit still? | | |
| ▲ | ip26 2 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Are you familiar with why movie theaters offer matinee tickets at a lower price? | |
| ▲ | LastTrain 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | It’s not like a brick and mortar store, it’s more like a hospital. |
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| ▲ | skissane 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | > I am curious how electricity is priced. Why are more and more utility providers charge based on ‘infrastructure cost’ or ‘fixed platform fee’ instead of usage fee? This is also happening in Australia. I wonder if it is a similar story in the US, or not. In Australia, rooftop solar and batteries have become so widespread, many properties have dramatically reduced their consumption of power from the grid. This poses a problem when electricity usage costs are used, not just to cover the power consumed, but also the grid infrastructure, much of which are fixed costs which are incurred irrespective of actual usage. In response, the regulator is looking at changing the billing structure to increase the fixed part of the bill which you pay irrespective of how much power you use. | | |
| ▲ | hparadiz 5 hours ago | parent [-] | | Yea it's the same thing in California and will likely be a growing problem. | | |
| ▲ | claw-el 3 hours ago | parent [-] | | What happens (in Australia and in California) if rooftop solar and battery technology really have a huge breakthrough and the capacity of the major power generators were never utilized in the lifetime of those generators? Do consumers just ‘bail out’ the power generation companies? |
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| ▲ | Avshalom 9 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | because as part of their legal monopolies they are only allowed to charge a "reasonable" usage fee. ETA: utility companies make profit on capex, not opex | | |
| ▲ | rayiner 8 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | That's mostly incorrect. In Maryland, like in most places in the country, the distribution infrastructure is controlled by regulated monopolies that buy power on the market from generators. Your bills separate out the fees for usage and the fees for distribution, and the Maryland PSC has to approve both. | | |
| ▲ | fooqux 7 hours ago | parent [-] | | Yes, but the cost per kilowatt is at least partially based on capex recovery. That might be approved by the PSC but what they approve are capex projects and the recovery of them. |
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| ▲ | claw-el 8 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Only allowed to charge “reasonable” usage fee means no other non-usage fee allowed or it is purposely designed to allow other kinds of fees? | | |
| ▲ | Avshalom 8 hours ago | parent [-] | | https://www.nrdc.org/bio/jc-kibbey/utility-accountability-10... To be clear this only about some utility companies. | | |
| ▲ | claw-el 7 hours ago | parent [-] | | Thank you for sharing this.
I get that the company making the capital investment wants to get a return of 10% from their investment.
The part I don’t understand is, why aren’t the return on investment being covered by the increased usage from the data centers (while the rate per usage stays flat)? If the increase in usage (with rates staying flat) is insufficient to cover for the return on investment, then who is making the decision to take the risk for making these capital investment? The risk taker can definitely ‘pay’ for an over confidence in the market. If it is because the increased usage of the grid as a whole reaches a step function requiring more investment, the system can have a gradually increasing usage price rate. I am trying to find out if someone in the system is trying to eat up the benefits and publicly say “it’s because of AI” or maybe I am not understanding the situation well. | | |
| ▲ | turlockmike 7 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | It's because it's a weird mix of subsidies, price controls, regulations and bureaucracy that has completely distorted the market incentives. | |
| ▲ | brianwawok 7 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Two things I’d think 1) the first MW is cheaper to generate than the 100th. Newer plants. Cheaper fuels. More efficient. You run your good stuff always, for peak it’s on demand. 2) the cost of the old plants are already paid for, if adding a new data center requires a new plant; may add a big cost with a 50 year payback. |
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| ▲ | morkalork 8 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Perhaps utilities should be state owned where any profits are used to offset the tax load on the citizens.. | | |
| ▲ | GorbachevyChase 2 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | They basically are. It really isn’t anything resembling an open market. They are effectively extensions of the state that happen to be funded by user fees rather than general funds. | |
| ▲ | fooqux 7 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Because there's this belief that a for-profit company will naturally be more efficient. No idea if that's actually true in practice though. Or if efficiency > the profits the company takes. I don't know of any large community ran utilities, just small ones. I'm guessing the scale starts being a problem eventually. | | |
| ▲ | fyrn_ 6 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | They can be efficient, but I ly if the incentives align towards the desired definition of efficiency.
If you give a company a natural monopoly and protection from competition. Then it's most efficient way to make money is just to raise rates | |
| ▲ | AlotOfReading 6 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | TVA and the NY power authority are genuinely massive, government run utilities. Both are also known for pretty low power bills. | | |
| ▲ | fooqux 5 hours ago | parent [-] | | Nice! I didn't know about those. Although it's hard to directly compare rates since cost can be so geographically dependant. |
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| ▲ | schipperai 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | This recent article from Semianalysis did a great job explaining part of it: https://newsletter.semianalysis.com/p/are-ai-datacenters-inc... | |
| ▲ | TrackerFF 8 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | I'm not familiar with the Maryland power grid, but I've observed in other places that putting data centers in places with older / inadequate grids can / will require upgrades to handle the new load. | |
| ▲ | CPLX 8 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Here's some very recent writing that will help you understand what's happening: https://www.organizedmoney.fm/p/how-private-equity-is-drivin... https://www.thebignewsletter.com/p/data-centers-arent-the-ma... | | |
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| ▲ | trollbridge 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| I've been saying this is going to be _the_ biggest political issue of the upcoming midterms and then the 2028 election. High electricity prices are something that really whacks the middle class, there's an easy bogeyman to hate here (AI and datacentres, neither of which are popular), and it crosses partisan lines. |
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| ▲ | vjvjvjvjghv 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Maybe the AI guys should use the AI first to develop fusion reactors they can then use to power the data centers. I honestly think they should pay fully for the infrastructure that provides power for them. It's not fair to have regular users pay for this. |
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| ▲ | trollbridge 4 hours ago | parent [-] | | If they have to pay for all the infrastructure themselves, the current financing model does not pencil out. | | |
| ▲ | vjvjvjvjghv 3 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Maybe that’s because their financing model doesn’t make sense. | |
| ▲ | deaux 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Then they go bust, and competitors who priced this in and have a better financing model end up the winners who take the market. Thought that was the free market capitalism that the US prided itself on? |
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| ▲ | luxuryballs 9 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| who is actually signing off on these agreements to build it, knowing the bill goes to the locals? seems openly shady |
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| ▲ | stackskipton 5 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Varies on the project. As someone dealing with this locally, it varies how the project got approved. Almost all the approval is at local level, sometimes at state level. Feds getting involve is pretty rare. A) Sometimes, it's existing datacenter that repurposed from "normal" datacenter to AI datacenter with power consumption skyrocketing. There generally is not a ton of approval in this case or power company came by asking for additional infrastructure approval and who the hell denies that. B) Some areas classed datacenters as "industrial" use so they could be built without a ton of preapproval. Most counties have closed that loophole but existing permits may allow additional datacenters to be built. C) Local officials approving things over desire of the voters. Alot of people don't pay attention to their local politicians despite them having most impact on their day-to-day life. Therefore, you end up with local politicians who will believe whatever they are told along with just plain overall corruption. Most of it legal. Also, as someone who used to live in Capital Region, National Politics can suck out all oxygen in the room so local officials are even less likely monitored. | | |
| ▲ | jauntywundrkind 3 hours ago | parent [-] | | The industrial use also often comes with fantastically low rates as well. Virginia finally started saying folks using >25MW need to pay something more than the incredibly cheap rates they had been given. But generally data centers have often gottem marked as industrial, and it's been incredibly fantastically advantageous to do so. |
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| ▲ | reactordev 9 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Those closest to the beltway… | | |
| ▲ | bilbo0s 8 hours ago | parent [-] | | Apparently not. Maryland residents didn’t sign any of these agreements in other states. Nor did their elected representatives. They were just presented with the bill to support the infrastructure in the other states because, you know, they’re so cool. And it doesn’t get any closer to the beltway than Maryland. What’s crazy is the utility company admits that the infrastructure is for the growth in the other states. They admit Maryland won’t grow as fast. They concede Maryland needs less infrastructure. But still saddled Maryland residents with the extra bills for out of state data centers? I mean, at least say it’s for Maryland. Just to make it look good? I don’t know? Make some kind of attempt to make it palatable. I’m wondering if it’s just easier to pass the cost on to people in Maryland than it is in other states? Like is the regulatory environment with respect to this kind of thing more lax or something? There has to be some kind of explanation. Because on the face of it, this just doesn’t look good. It makes ai and tech industry just seem like robber barons. And tech guys don’t need that right now. | | |
| ▲ | trollbridge 4 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | One of Ohio's bigger utilities (AEP) recently just got a new tariff passed with the PUCO that required big electric users (i.e., datacentres) to actually commit with hard money when they said they expected some large increase in demand. The amount of power datacentres said they were going to use dropped significantly - well over half. So now the utility has far less it has to worry about in big time transmissions build outs. All from making the people claiming they needed it put a modest amount of money forward. They have to pay $100k (for a 100-MW project) to do a load study. Then they have to agree that they will pay for the electricity they claim they're going to use, even if they end up not using it (i.e., the data centre doesn't get built out and they end up using 0.) If their credit rating is not strong enough, they have to pledge security or else put up the money. A lot of data centre operators wouldn't cough up the $10k or $100k needed for the load study. Everything got a lot easier. | | |
| ▲ | 3eb7988a1663 3 hours ago | parent [-] | | Excellent move, and I am surprised it was effective at such a low annoyance price. The rumor is that many of the data centers have been shopping around in different utility markets, trying to assess where they could get the best/fastest build out. However, they are never informing the utility of sites which they will not develop. So some of these massive data centers may be getting double or triply counted for electricity demand projections. |
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| ▲ | jfengel 8 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | It's for "the grid", of which Maryland is a part, so it supposedly derives some benefit. And since the grid is being updated to accommodate new paying customers, Maryland will benefit from lower future prices. Right? Right? | | |
| ▲ | trollbridge 4 hours ago | parent [-] | | Uh, yeah. Yeah, future prices will be lower. That's sure how this worked out before! |
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| ▲ | senectus1 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| these out of state AI companies are fairly quickly going to realize that their lobbying for the CURRENT administration doesnt mean shit after the next election. they're going to have to learn to be a lot more thoughtful about the seething masses (that their products are forcing them to lose jobs to)... |
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| ▲ | katabasis 4 hours ago | parent [-] | | You're assuming that we're going to see a transition to a new administration with different priorities in the near future. | | |
| ▲ | senectus1 4 hours ago | parent [-] | | just to be clear, i mean the state administration not federal. but yes.. unless democracy breaks down completely. |
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| ▲ | typon an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Can someone explain to me why local governments are so against datacenters? It seems like a golden opportunity to build electric infrastructure that's paid for by corporations and if AI is a bubble at least that infrastructure will remain and continue to provide cheap power. |
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| ▲ | jmyeet 8 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| We've been here before [1]. In that case, extra load on the grid meant the municipality needed to purchase more power (at higher prices), which raised everybody's prices. Electricity supply is highly regulated. Prices for electricity are constrained and often set by state regulators. These are so-called "usage fees". But beyond that the utility is allowed to charge customers for infrastructure and transmissio and those fees are out of control. We recently had a court case where a North Carolina utility illegally overcharged customers but the judge didn't assign damages because legally the utility could just charge customers for those damages [2]. And the legislature passed laws to protect the utility as well. This is going to get worse too because private equity is rapidly moving into this market and they know that capex can be entirely pushed onto customers with no recourse. So the data centers tend to get sweetheart deals on electricity too. So while the total cost of electricity has gone up (per Mwh), they pay less pushing even more burden onto everyone else. Plus they get discounts on property taxes, energy tariffs and other taxes, as in the case of Kevin O'Leary's mega-DC in Utah. But this state interconnect bill is another level of evil because it's pushing the costs onto states that have nothing to do with the data center and won't get any "benefit" (there is no benefit) anyway. What we need are laws that make these projects pay for their own infrastructure. This might cause them to build near power sources. Great. Away from people, mostly. The level of regulatory corruption here is actually sickening. Take Elon's Grok DC in Memphis that exploits local laws against clean air by using "mobile" gas turbines in the city of Memphis. [1]: https://newsroom.haas.berkeley.edu/research/power-hungry-cry... [2]: https://www.wcnc.com/article/news/local/no-refunds-for-duke-... |
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| ▲ | disillusioned 3 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | > (there is no benefit) This is the craziest part. We've long had publicly subsidized private projects, or corporate tax breaks given to entities with the fig leaf explanation that the projects will bring economic activity, or jobs, or some sort of long lasting, durable benefit, or even at its most craven, keep a stupid populace happy that their favorite sportsball team hasn't left their town. Datacenters do none of these things. They don't bring any true employment numbers to make a difference. They don't materially improve their surroundings. They don't increase land value. They aren't an attractive neighbor. They don't benefit the tax base, not least of all when you're doling out massive tax breaks and deferments... no one _wants_ them, so it's not even like this is a "well, you're just not a Buffalo Bills fan, but the rest of us are, get on board!" situation. There is zero net benefit to the citizens in these places to welcome these facilities to their town. Shorter latency to their chatbot of choice, maybe? But in any practical, moral hazard sense, these are all pure net negatives for the communities, and it's wild that these leaders think they're some sort of marquee, glamorous, prestigious win of a project. Compare this with other, things-that-rhyme-but-aren't-the-same projects, like the TSMC fabs in Phoenix: these projects are bringing a ton of high-paying, new jobs (and, somewhat controversially, an expat community from Taiwan to help onboard them in the meantime), but they're also delivering in other economic terms because of the supply chain's knock-on effects: the TSMC fabs further the reputation of Phoenix as the Silicon Desert that Intel, OnSemi, Microchip, and Motorola had long been working towards, but at a much more amplified scale, and in a truly meaningful capacity. The money being spent here is staying here, and driving some real practical benefits. But even still, it's an open conversation around how careful we need to be with the water usage of these fabs (though TSMC is aiming towards 90%+ recapture in the next few years, I think it's ~60% right now), and other considerations... they are still, on balance, bringing 6,000-12,000 direct jobs, and even more indirect jobs as they continue to expand. These datacenter projects don't even do _that_ well. They're just upsetting the power grid and creating unfortunate microclimates for the immediate vicinity for a handful of NOC jobs. (And some itinerant construction and engineering jobs.) | |
| ▲ | downrightmike 5 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | A bunch of mini Enron 2.0's that aren't actually mini |
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| ▲ | emsign 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Seems people have the choice between power outtages and getting pollution by the untreated exhausts of small gas turbine that are running on the premises of AI data centers. It's horrible for humans. Humans are so annoying, can't they move away from data centers?/s |
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| ▲ | SOLAR_FIELDS 8 hours ago | parent | prev [-] |
| I'll be the first to complain about Texas being on its own energy grid and the dumpster fire of resultant things that happen because of it, but it is worthwhile to call out that this sort of thing is not possible in Texas because of that. |
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| ▲ | downrightmike 5 hours ago | parent [-] | | Texans just get surprise thousand dollar+ bills for one night of usage as the demand charge allows... if they get any power at all |
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