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claw-el 10 hours ago

I am curious how electricity is priced. Why are more and more utility providers charge based on ‘infrastructure cost’ or ‘fixed platform fee’ instead of usage fee?

twunde 9 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Within the US, energy prices for are typically split into supply and distribution rates with taxes and fees added to each of these. There are typically a large number of these fees that are passed through to the consumer, but just are bundled together to reduce confusion. An example fee is one for keeping power plants idle as extra capacity for when it's needed. Electricity has a nationwide market with different prices for spot prices vs long term although if you are big enough you can also get a direct contract to hedge your energy supply prices.

The complaint here is that PJM is spending money on upgrading the long range wires and passing that fee in a way that's not calculated for usage but instead it's likely divided evenly amongst member states. If you're upgrading wires in PA why should Maryland pay for that? These would taking in new/higher fees being passed to consumers.

The long range transmission lines are different than short term transmission lines. The long range ones appear someone to hit electricity from a power plant in California for a business in Baltimore.

londons_explore 2 hours ago | parent [-]

And the counterpoint is that for the resident of Maryland, paying a little now to upgrade long distance transmission lines will save them money in the long run, because it will allow them to benefit from cheap solar power from California in the evenings and cheap solar from new York in the mornings.

More transmission = more places to find lower prices.

derf_ 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> Why are more and more utility providers charge based on ‘infrastructure cost’ or ‘fixed platform fee’ instead of usage fee?

Because unlike many commodities, electricity, once generated, is hard to store, yet supply must match demand in real time. You need to meet peak demand, even if normal usage is not as high. If you pay purely for usage, that might not send enough price signals to ensure that you have the necessary capacity when you need it. https://www.canarymedia.com/articles/enn/explainer-how-capac... has a more detailed overview of how markets are being structured to provide capacity, separate from actual generation.

claw-el 5 hours ago | parent [-]

Hmmm, if you take a brick and mortar store, they have fixed costs to renovate and decorate the store, and they likely have capacity of the store that is not used during non-peak period as well. They charge for item sold, to cover for all costs they incurred for capacity of the store even during non-peak period as well. Is this an equivalent comparison? Don’t businesses generally roll in the fixed costs into their price and charge per unit still?

ip26 4 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Are you familiar with why movie theaters offer matinee tickets at a lower price?

LastTrain 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

It’s not like a brick and mortar store, it’s more like a hospital.

skissane 7 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> I am curious how electricity is priced. Why are more and more utility providers charge based on ‘infrastructure cost’ or ‘fixed platform fee’ instead of usage fee?

This is also happening in Australia. I wonder if it is a similar story in the US, or not.

In Australia, rooftop solar and batteries have become so widespread, many properties have dramatically reduced their consumption of power from the grid. This poses a problem when electricity usage costs are used, not just to cover the power consumed, but also the grid infrastructure, much of which are fixed costs which are incurred irrespective of actual usage. In response, the regulator is looking at changing the billing structure to increase the fixed part of the bill which you pay irrespective of how much power you use.

hparadiz 7 hours ago | parent [-]

Yea it's the same thing in California and will likely be a growing problem.

claw-el 4 hours ago | parent [-]

What happens (in Australia and in California) if rooftop solar and battery technology really have a huge breakthrough and the capacity of the major power generators were never utilized in the lifetime of those generators? Do consumers just ‘bail out’ the power generation companies?

Paradigma11 2 minutes ago | parent [-]

Those consumers still want to have power for the few weeks that solar and battery dont cut it, dont they?

Avshalom 10 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

because as part of their legal monopolies they are only allowed to charge a "reasonable" usage fee.

ETA: utility companies make profit on capex, not opex

rayiner 10 hours ago | parent | next [-]

That's mostly incorrect. In Maryland, like in most places in the country, the distribution infrastructure is controlled by regulated monopolies that buy power on the market from generators. Your bills separate out the fees for usage and the fees for distribution, and the Maryland PSC has to approve both.

fooqux 8 hours ago | parent [-]

Yes, but the cost per kilowatt is at least partially based on capex recovery. That might be approved by the PSC but what they approve are capex projects and the recovery of them.

claw-el 10 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Only allowed to charge “reasonable” usage fee means no other non-usage fee allowed or it is purposely designed to allow other kinds of fees?

Avshalom 10 hours ago | parent [-]

https://www.nrdc.org/bio/jc-kibbey/utility-accountability-10... To be clear this only about some utility companies.

claw-el 9 hours ago | parent [-]

Thank you for sharing this. I get that the company making the capital investment wants to get a return of 10% from their investment. The part I don’t understand is, why aren’t the return on investment being covered by the increased usage from the data centers (while the rate per usage stays flat)?

If the increase in usage (with rates staying flat) is insufficient to cover for the return on investment, then who is making the decision to take the risk for making these capital investment? The risk taker can definitely ‘pay’ for an over confidence in the market.

If it is because the increased usage of the grid as a whole reaches a step function requiring more investment, the system can have a gradually increasing usage price rate.

I am trying to find out if someone in the system is trying to eat up the benefits and publicly say “it’s because of AI” or maybe I am not understanding the situation well.

turlockmike 8 hours ago | parent | next [-]

It's because it's a weird mix of subsidies, price controls, regulations and bureaucracy that has completely distorted the market incentives.

brianwawok 8 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Two things I’d think

1) the first MW is cheaper to generate than the 100th. Newer plants. Cheaper fuels. More efficient. You run your good stuff always, for peak it’s on demand.

2) the cost of the old plants are already paid for, if adding a new data center requires a new plant; may add a big cost with a 50 year payback.

morkalork 10 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Perhaps utilities should be state owned where any profits are used to offset the tax load on the citizens..

GorbachevyChase 4 hours ago | parent | next [-]

They basically are. It really isn’t anything resembling an open market. They are effectively extensions of the state that happen to be funded by user fees rather than general funds.

fooqux 8 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Because there's this belief that a for-profit company will naturally be more efficient. No idea if that's actually true in practice though. Or if efficiency > the profits the company takes.

I don't know of any large community ran utilities, just small ones. I'm guessing the scale starts being a problem eventually.

fyrn_ 8 hours ago | parent | next [-]

They can be efficient, but I ly if the incentives align towards the desired definition of efficiency. If you give a company a natural monopoly and protection from competition. Then it's most efficient way to make money is just to raise rates

AlotOfReading 7 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

TVA and the NY power authority are genuinely massive, government run utilities. Both are also known for pretty low power bills.

fooqux 6 hours ago | parent [-]

Nice! I didn't know about those. Although it's hard to directly compare rates since cost can be so geographically dependant.

schipperai 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

This recent article from Semianalysis did a great job explaining part of it: https://newsletter.semianalysis.com/p/are-ai-datacenters-inc...

TrackerFF 9 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I'm not familiar with the Maryland power grid, but I've observed in other places that putting data centers in places with older / inadequate grids can / will require upgrades to handle the new load.

CPLX 10 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Here's some very recent writing that will help you understand what's happening:

https://www.organizedmoney.fm/p/how-private-equity-is-drivin...

https://www.thebignewsletter.com/p/data-centers-arent-the-ma...

aprilthird2021 10 hours ago | parent [-]

Kind of stuff that can radicalize a young family struggling to make ends meet...