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gritspants 7 hours ago

I don't see the advantage of learning 'AI workflows'. I am in the US and there seems to be a FOMO plague infecting our school system when it comes to technology. In practice it seems more destructive to the child.

Gigachad 7 hours ago | parent | next [-]

I keep hearing this at work but so far no one has explained what “learning ai” actually means. It seems to just be nonsense like those people selling prompt recipes or claiming to be prompt engineers.

No one needs training in prompting AI. I could understand if they meant a deeper layer of integrating tech with systems but all they ever mean is typing things in to a text box.

Mordisquitos 6 hours ago | parent | next [-]

I suspect that, in practice, what many enthusiastic advocates mean by “learning AI” is actually “learning to need AI”.

In other words, the aim is to get kids used to using AI as soon as possible, so that they do not learn the skills to function without depending on it.

justonceokay 3 hours ago | parent [-]

If you’re smart AI saves you time getting to something you could probably achieve anyway. If you’re… not smart… then it will be a necessary crutch for you to get through life.

I can see the angle for making sure kids start using it before they develop the skills to become independent of it.

TheOtherHobbes 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

You absolutely need prompting skills to use AI usefully. You need to know how to eliminate sycophancy, how to ask for and check primary sources, and how to use follow-up questions.

I've been using AI for some legal issues, and it's been incredibly good at searching for case law and summarising the key implications of various statutes - much more efficient than web search, with direct links to the primary sources it finds.

I'm still the one gaming out "What if...?" and "Does that mean..?" scenarios and making sure the answers are grounded in the relevant statutes, and aren't mistakes or hallucinations.

It's not so much a prompting problem as a critical thinking and verbal reasoning problem.

Jensson an hour ago | parent [-]

> It's not so much a prompting problem as a critical thinking and verbal reasoning problem.

And that means you have to learn without AI to understand when the AI is wrong. This is just how its dangerous to use a calculator without knowing math since you wont spot when you entered things wrongly etc.

3yr-i-frew-up 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

As someone who sells AI... You'd be shocked at how bad people are at using AI.

My 6 year old kid who watches me is a better prompter.

brobdingnagians 7 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Especially since kids these days aren't even very good at using computers:

http://www.coding2learn.org/blog/2013/07/29/kids-cant-use-co...

It seems to me that if someone can read and think critically-- they can RTFM and get much better much quicker at computers and AI than people who spent all their time tapping an ipad to watch the next video.

Gigachad 7 hours ago | parent [-]

I'd think really the only AI skill you need is the ability to think independently and be able to verify the results you are getting or spot when something is wrong in the response.

It would take a few sessions at most to take someone from 10 years ago and get them fully up to speed with AI tools since they have zero learning curve.

Ekaros 3 hours ago | parent | next [-]

I think exercises when student is given pre-generated AI output and told to identify as many issues or mistakes as possible might be sensible. Not sure how long creating such exercise would take and what should be the tools or sources to verify the output but that might be helpful excersise.

therealdrag0 3 hours ago | parent [-]

Similar to Google and Wikipedia lessons back in my day.

graemep 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

You also need to understand the limits of AI and that it has limits that a human that gives you usually correct and authoritative answers does not have.

I think it comes easily to the sort of people who comment here. Moat people have a very vague understanding of computers in general.

duskdozer 5 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Presumably prompting skills like https://github.com/califio/publications/blob/main/MADBugs/CV...

pesus an hour ago | parent | next [-]

Are these supposed to be the "skilled" prompts? This just reads as a basic conversation and not as particularly well-written or well-defined prompts. So far everything I've seen about prompting "skills" has just come down to being able to articulate and critically think a bit.

TingPing 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

I’m not sure anything was clarified. Nothing about that conversation is special or unique?

schnitzelstoat 7 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I don't think they need to learn 'AI workflows' (whatever that means). But I think it makes sense to use the LLM's as a resource.

I've used them when studying new languages (human languages not programming languages) and ML algorithms and they've been really useful.

Learning to check the citations it gives you is a useful skill too. I wish many adults were more sceptical about the things they are told.

Gigachad 6 hours ago | parent | next [-]

It's true that you can use LLMs as a learning resource and to unblock you. But students just aren't. They are using them as a way to avoid thinking, avoid research, and just spit out an answer they can paste in to their homework.

jjgreen 6 hours ago | parent [-]

They should at least require handwritten work, the kids will still be AI-stupid but will at least be able to write.

actionfromafar 5 hours ago | parent [-]

You remember better when you write, too.

TheOtherHobbes 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

I assume "AI workflows" means knowing how to split up a task to create a chain of agents that can complete a specific task reliably.

A bit like software development.

ontouchstart 7 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

AI “workflows” share the same addictive characteristics of web surfing online virtual media, which can be counter productive. In this regard, we do need some serious learning at all the levels in the workplace. Otherwise we will become addicted to the slot machines.

Addiction is a much harder problem than distraction.

willio58 an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Had a buddy who works at a prestigious university teaching film history tell me their big boss is basically forcing all classes including his ones on film history to incorporate AI education in some way. So silly.

cucumber3732842 7 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

It's not FOMO. The line level people actually educating the children don't give a crap about the technology. They will generally make the best of whatever resources they have and procure wisely. Like everything else in government it's an administrative racket and all the suppliers fan the flames because they make money. Ain't no different than how your local building or environmental inspector finds himself screwing people doing nothing wrong and approving absurd stuff because that's what the rules big business ghost wrote and paid to have the government adopt say he must do.

Kids are using crappy subscription education services for homework and doing all their reading on screens (and educators are toiling away to work with these systems) because the people who make money off the services and screens paid to have the incentives distorted such that buying their products is the least shitty option.

doikor 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> I don't see the advantage of learning 'AI workflows'.

This would be just the modern version of "Computer class" back in the day when we learned to use word, excel, etc. Just another tool among others that is helpful to learn but should be limited to that specific class.

Though actual sad thing learning from friends with kids is that the modern "computer class" does not actually teach kids to use computers much these days.

AdamN 4 hours ago | parent [-]

Yeah I'd be happier if they learned how an Apollo computer worked (even though it has virtually no relevance) than how to use Excel.

Minor49er 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

[dead]

logicchains 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

>I don't see the advantage of learning 'AI workflows'.

Eventually everything that can be learned from a book will be done much better by machines, so for humans to have any chance of being employable they'll need to develop the soft skill of working with intelligent machines.

randcraw 4 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Just as "there is no royal road to mathematics", no AI can do your learning for you. The need for memorization of essential math identities (like multiplication tables and use of fractions) or rules of grammar (like verb conjugation or use of anaphora) will never be enhanced by AI. There is an essential role for good old fashioned rote learning that can't be avoided. To pretend AI will not impede that learning is a fool's errand, literally.

graemep an hour ago | parent [-]

I do not see the point of either of your examples of rote learning. What do you lose if you do not know the? You will pick up enough of multiplication tables through doing maths, native speakers of a language will conjugate correctly without memorising (you do need to do it if learning foreign languages). Anaphora is a technique which cannot really be rote learned - and most people to try to use it do so badly and just sound repetitive.

pessimizer an hour ago | parent [-]

> You will pick up enough of multiplication tables through doing maths

You will not do maths casually until you have memorized enough multiplication to make it not torture. You will not pick up multiplication from using a calculator any more than you will pick up programming from using a computer.

> native speakers of a language will conjugate correctly without memorising

They do not. They have memorized, through massive, constant, and forced practice, and now they conjugate correctly. The alternative of consulting a computer every time they need to speak is not a realistic one.

pessimizer an hour ago | parent | prev [-]

If AI is still too stupid to show people how to work with it, and to notice their lacks and anticipate their needs, it can't have become that indispensably useful.

The entire point of AI is to accommodate the user. AI doesn't do anything that people can't do, is worse at most of those things, but is a lot faster at some of them (basically looking up things.) The point of AI is natural language UI.

Teaching people how to use AI is just teaching people enough about the world to give them something to ask AI for.

3yr-i-frew-up 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Luddite move.

Buddy AI is here to stay. You remind me of my 2nd grade teacher who said 'we wont have calculators in our pockets'.

randcraw 4 hours ago | parent | next [-]

And s/he was right. Most students who were brought up with calculators in math class cannot do basic math without one today. When shopping in groceries, they have no idea if one product costs more than another by weight. They're easy to bamboozle with the simplest misrepresentations of numbers. Is one choice of product really better than another, fractionally, or corrected for a shifted baseline? They don't know and can't use basic algebra to find out.

This is bad -- an F grade for the education system that let them slide by without learning an essential skill. The chinese aren't this lazy. And if we persist in not learning this, America's future will regress to us asking them, "Do you want fries with that?"

graemep an hour ago | parent [-]

That is poor teaching. My kids were almost always allowed calculators (always after the age of 8 or 9) and they can do all that and a lot more (my older daughter is an electronics engineer, in R & D).

For one thing you do not need to do much arithmetic to do algebra, for another estimating and getting a feel for numbers is not the same skill as learning a bunch of arithmetic techniques. No one is going to do long division while shopping.

AdamN 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

AI is important but we don't know what skills will be relevant in 10+ years to harness AI (I can't imagine prompt engineering is much the same). Anyway, would a typical teacher be ahead of the curve on what pedagogical tack to take here even if it was appropriate?

The best thing to do is to set the kids up to learn the most important thing - which is how to teach oneself. If a kid can read about something, and then understand what was important from the reading, and then write about it, and then know where to go next they will be well served in the AI world.

_fizz_buzz_ 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

AI is here to stay. But learning to copy-paste homework into a chatbot is not really a skill one needs to learn.