| ▲ | jacquesm 16 hours ago |
| > I live in a top EV market, Norway. It is the top EV market. > I figure most other countries will be the same. Most other countries are not Norway, it is a very wealthy, tiny market (150 K vehicles/year) with lots of hydro and not representative of the typical vehicle market in Western Europe and definitely not representative of the situation in the rest of the world. EVs are the future, there is no doubt about that. But that future will not arrive everywhere at the same point in time and Norway is very far ahead of the rest of the world due to a fairly unique set of circumstances: exporting your own oil and gas to be able to have a 'clean' (and up to recently heavily subsidized) transportation network is in a way just a gigantic bookkeeping trick. |
|
| ▲ | bwestergard 16 hours ago | parent | next [-] |
| "exporting your own oil and gas to be able to have a 'clean' (and up to recently heavily subsidized) transportation network is in a way just a gigantic bookkeeping trick" How so? If every oil exporter used some of their oil revenue to switch to EVs, that would, all things equal, hasten the transition to EVs. The U.S. is not doing that. |
| |
| ▲ | yndoendo 15 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | I still find it funny when it comes to oil between the USA and Saudi Arabia. Saudi Arabia started moving the electrical system to renewables where USA is doubling down on fossil fuels. Saudi Arabia is the drug dealer that knows you don't consumer your own supply unless you must were the USA consumes the crack they sell. My next vehicle will 100% be pure EV, not Tesla. | | |
| ▲ | appreciatorBus 15 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | > the drug dealer that knows you don't consumer your own supply unless you must So true. There's nothing incompatible at all with:
a) realizing that earth has gifted you with a valuable but limited & polluting energy source
b) realizing that you'd be foolish to get you own country hooked on it, but it's not a bad business if you can get other countries hooked on it. Instead we get oil rich areas seemingly determined to show off how much of their oil they can waste. | | |
| ▲ | rob74 14 hours ago | parent [-] | | Wow, so now the US oil barons who lobbied Trump to kill renewables and EVs are even worse than Mohammed "Bonesaw*" bin Salman Al Saud? That's really something, if you look at it that way... * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assassination_of_Jamal_Khashog... | | |
| ▲ | jacquesm 14 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Either you're too smart for me or I just can't follow you, but could you please expand a bit on your comment? I find it hard to link it to the parent, but I realize that may be on me. | | |
| ▲ | rob74 14 hours ago | parent [-] | | Sorry, it was referring more to the grandparent comment, that referred to Saudi Arabia behaving more responsibly than the US, and Mohammed bin Salman is of course the crown prince and prime minister of Saudi Arabia. | | |
| ▲ | svpk 12 hours ago | parent [-] | | They're comparing Saudi Arabia to a drug dealer; I don't think they're ascribing any moral virtue to the Saudi regime. They just believe the Saudis are acting more intelligently. |
|
| |
| ▲ | deaux 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Yes? I don't think you can argue in good faith that the latter causes more total harm and damage than the former. It's really quite something to look at it in a different way.. | |
| ▲ | Retric 13 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | How you use worse implies a wider judgment than how someone behaves on a single issue. Real people are more complicated than Disney characters. | |
| ▲ | raw_anon_1111 13 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | How many people have Trump’s wars in Venezuela and Iran killed? |
|
| |
| ▲ | Tagbert 13 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | The funny thing is the US doesn’t really consume much Saudi Oil. The US is a net exporter of oil, though they do import some specific types of oils and export more of others. The US’s interest in the Middle East oil is a lot about stabilizing oil prices. At least it used to be when there was a rational policy and competent executors. | | | |
| ▲ | laughing_man 13 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Transitioning to renewables makes economic sense for the Saudis because they make more money selling a barrel of oil for transportation fuel and generating power with wind and solar. The US has vast reserves of coal and natural gas. We generally don't use oil to generate power either -- oil is something like 0.4% of the total power generated, because we have vast amounts of natural gas and coal to use instead. The situation isn't the result of some crafty master plan on the part of the Saudis. It's jusut what makes sense. | | |
| ▲ | ZeroGravitas 4 hours ago | parent [-] | | But in the context of the current topic, USA could be demonstrating their technical prowess and running EVs off this amazing coal and gas bounty. Instead they seem to be in a cycle of buying massive inefficient vehicles and then getting annoyed at gas prices. Oil is 2/5ths of US energy use. |
| |
| ▲ | ericmay 14 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | The oil market is global and the US is a big part of that but it’s not the only one. You can always make changes to energy sources later and as new technologies are unlocked perhaps we can even skip some headaches now. Obviously there’s the geostrategic angle now which you see play out in Iran and Venezuela. As other countries move to reliance on Chinese rare earth processing for renewable technology, it drives their oil and gas consumption down which means more oil and gas for those who are still using it. If you really want to look at this analogy about drug dealers then really what you see is that America is the big boss here and an energy and military super power, and Saudi Arabia is just another dealer under American protection and if they don’t do what we tell them to do they’ll get the boot. | |
| ▲ | spicymaki 13 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Like the drug dealers where I grew up they are making the neighborhood a really terrible place to live. They might have a nice house right now, but the homes around them are burning. | |
| ▲ | kortilla 7 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | The electrical system is unrelated to oil for transportation. | |
| ▲ | bluGill 14 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | The US is moving the grid renewable. The guys at top might not think so and yell loudly not to, but they can't stop things, only put the brakes on a little. | | |
| ▲ | ourmandave 14 hours ago | parent [-] | | They've pumped the brakes pretty hard by cutting EPA standards,
subsidizing coal,
suing to stop wind and solar projects,
cutting green energy grants by $8B,
yoinking solar tax credits,
trying to rewrite the Clean Air Act to block states from regulating emissions,
shield Big Oil from litigation for climate deception,
and repeating Big Oil's lies and disinformation. | | |
| ▲ | jdlshore 14 hours ago | parent [-] | | The economics are against them nonetheless. Solar + battery is seeing massive rollouts. | | |
| ▲ | deaux 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | Those rollouts are seeing massive cutbacks from what I've read, as half the country is straight up banning new solar. Good luck ever getting that off the books. | | |
| ▲ | bluGill 6 minutes ago | parent [-] | | I don't think it will be that hard. Banning solar is a feel good thing now that doesn't affect many people - but that means when the next election is gone it won't be opposed when lobbyists (and greens) try to roll it back. Of course each state is different, so some it will take more than a few elections. In some states solar is already widespread enough that you can't ban it because too many people already have it and know enough about it to tell their friends. Those friends who live in other states will start to ask why they don't. Remember you need to keep the 20 year plan in mind. If you only look to the end of 2026 things are hopeless, but look to 2050 (and compare to 2000) and things look much better. |
|
|
|
|
| |
| ▲ | jasonfarnon 14 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | "If every oil exporter used some of their oil revenue to switch to EVs, that would, all things equal, hasten the transition to EVs." The premise is all things aren't equal. The oil Norway would have used just gets used somewhere else so what difference does it make what Norway does instead. I don't know if that's the reality of the situation but if it is just an offset, it does sound like a bookkeeping trick doesn't it? | | |
| ▲ | blargey 14 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Norway switching from ICEs to EVs objectively reduces global oil consumption+burning by exactly that much. Norway exporting oil increases oil supply, but doesn't increase consumption. The world's oil consumers are not supply-constrained; the producers are not running at 100% capacity, and they'll happily pick up the slack if Norway just stopped exporting oil for no reason. And there's a large amount of consumption that can't be offset by electrification in the first place (petrochemicals, long distance flight, etc) so there's not even a theoretical future end-state where they require a non-EV-using counterparty to buy their oil to fund their EV usage. Calling it a "bookkeeping trick" is just verbal sleigh-of-hand. | | |
| ▲ | patmorgan23 13 hours ago | parent [-] | | Increases in supply also increase consumption, we use lots of cheap stuff, but not very much of expensive stuff. | | |
| ▲ | jonasdegendt 6 hours ago | parent [-] | | This would be true but you're not accounting for OPEC and other groups (e.g. historically the Texas Railroad Commission in the United States, not sure how relevant they still are) to balance production and price per barrel to what they think is agreeable. Oil hasn't been supply constrained since the 50's, it's price is largely based on what producing countries agree on, as well as geopolitics. Additionally, governments levy a decent amount of taxes on certain end products such as gasoline. They might very well, as they have in the past, decide to simply up their tax revenue as prices of crude and derivatives go down. |
|
| |
| ▲ | paulryanrogers 14 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Only if Norway's lack of internal consumption must be met with equal and similarly destructive consumption elsewhere. Consider if others followed their lead. Then oil would be used less for transportation, one of its most destructive and singular uses, and more for manufacturing or medical or less wasteful uses. |
|
|
|
| ▲ | rossjudson 10 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Top market? I'm pretty sure that's China. Speaking of bookkeeping tricks: Kneecapping renewable energy (wind), cancelling the EV future in the US, and then starting a war in the strait of hormuz will someday be acknowledged as the finest moment of the oil industry, maximizing profit in the face of all reason. |
|
| ▲ | SupremumLimit 16 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Sure, but there is also China where over half of new vehicle sales are EVs. Denmark is at 70%, Sweden, Iceland, Finland and the Netherlands are all above 50%, a bunch of other countries in the EU are at one third EVs. In India, 5% of sales are EVs but that is double of the year before and all the big car manufacturers in India are now offering EVs. Even Australia is at 14% after stalling on EVs for years. So change is unfolding quite quickly compared to previous years. https://www.visualcapitalist.com/ev-share-new-car-sales-by-c... |
| |
| ▲ | moogly 14 hours ago | parent [-] | | Those numbers include PHEV cars. As a BEV owner, I consider PHEV to be more ICE than BEV. BEV numbers are not as impressive, but we're getting there, slowly but surely. A bit slower than I would've hoped. | | |
| ▲ | sehansen 4 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | The Danish numbers normally exclude PHEVs. Not that it matters, since PHEVs are almost dead as a segment here. Over the past two years 310k BEVs were sold here, but only 6k PHEVs. The situation in Norway is very similar. And across Europe BEVs are also about twice as popular as PHEVs. In 2025 2.6 million BEVs were sold in Europe compared to 1.3 million PHEVs. It seems the biggest deciding factor is how good the public charging network is. Sources: https://bilmagasinet.dk/bil-nyheder/hvor-mange-elbiler-er-de... (Danish) https://bilmagasinet.dk/bil-nyheder/saa-meget-steg-salget-af... (Danish) https://www.tradingpedia.com/forex-brokers/global-demand-for... | |
| ▲ | whateverboat 14 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | In many countries, it will be PHEV for a long time because the electricity capacity and grid is just not there. India for example. | |
| ▲ | bluGill 10 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | My Phev is about 80% ev. It uses a tank of gas a month, replacing a nearly identical vehicle (similar body and same engine - though other things have changed) that needed one or two tanks a week. | | |
| ▲ | dalyons 9 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | sadly thats not the norm. Various recent studies from the EU based on real world vehicle data show that actual savings from the PHEV category are about ~20% less emissions than a pure gas version. Aka, they are just gas cars. Despite manufacturers claiming ~70-80% for emissions credits. The category is today kind of a scam, in aggregate. It doesnt have to be - bigger battery strictly-series EREVs would likely show better numbers than the weak-ev phevs sold today. | | |
| ▲ | bluGill 12 minutes ago | parent | next [-] | | I think it is the norm only because people never run the numbers. At least where I live gas costs me 5-10x more than electric (I live in the US, gas is cheap, but all my electric is from even cheaper wind). It wouldn't be hard to teach them to plug the car in when they are at home anywhere (many people park in a garage with an outlet - if this doesn't apply to you then PHEV doesn't make sense - you don't get enough range for your effort to find a charger) For most in the US what makes the most sense today is one PHEV they use for long trips and towing the boat. The rest should be pure EVs, which have enough range for the typical trips and the few exceptions they just reserve the PHEV that day. As time goes on more and more chargers will be built and eventually pure EV for everything will make sense, but right not there isn't enough charging infrastructure. (You can get almost anywhere in the US, but the trip is planned around where the next charger is, not where either you feel like stopping or where the battery is low - gas stations are at nearly every exit, fast chargers 1 in 30 exits or something in that range) | |
| ▲ | ZeroGravitas 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | One key element is whether the incentive/penalty is attached to buying the vehicle or buying the fuel. PHEVs in a world that includes externalities in the cost of fuel will be used in EV mode more. Same vehicle different outcome. Currently it's a mishmash with some countries penalizing electricity use while subsidizing fuel sales in lots of different little ways. In general it's trending in the right direction though. | | |
| ▲ | bluGill 10 minutes ago | parent [-] | | PHEVs when you already own them cost vastly less in electric mode. That people don't bother plugging them in is because they don't care about cost enough to bother to see if there is a difference. |
|
| |
| ▲ | vachina 8 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | PHEV feels good on paper, but in ICE mode they’re terrible. On a recent long road trip they do about 14km/L with a fully charged EV range of 50km. Quite inefficient to lug a petrol engine and a semi large battery all the time. |
|
|
|
|
| ▲ | raw_anon_1111 13 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| They seem to be solving the “Resource Curse” quite well. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Resource_curse |
|
| ▲ | lukan 16 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| No, it is a real invewtment in the right direction. The oil states in the middle east could have made such investments, too. Lots of EV powered by solar panels paid for with oil dollar. But they did not (in a significant way). |
|
| ▲ | onlyrealcuzzo 16 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| I mean - how are you defining most? Most countries are quite poor and/or have small populations and aren't buying many vehicles period. About ~45% of countries have smaller populations than Norway, and Norway is in the top ~25% of countries by size of the auto market... Most countries are not the China and India, yet they make up almost 45% of the global population. The US and China make up about 45% of the auto market... There's a lot of European, Asian, and Latin American countries that have more in common with Norway than they do with the US or China or India. |
| |
|
| ▲ | pyuser583 15 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| There is still one country that uses leaded gasoline for personal cars. For automobiles, the future comes very slowly. |
| |
| ▲ | skissane 14 hours ago | parent [-] | | > There is still one country that uses leaded gasoline for personal cars. That was true five years ago, but no longer-Algeria, the last country to allow it, banned leaded petrol in 2021 - https://www.bbc.com/news/world-58388810 | | |
| ▲ | tialaramex 11 hours ago | parent [-] | | It's actually not clear to me in what sense "banned" is used here. The UK never formally "banned" leaded petrol. They banned sales of new cars which need it, and then later told places which sell petrol that they can only have a small portion of their fuel as leaded, and then (as anticipated) market forces did the rest. AFAICT it would still be legal for the place on the bypass near me to sell leaded fuel but they don't because (a) the market is too small, not worth it and (b) as a result wholesalers don't offer the product, so if they wanted to sell it they can't get it anyway. | | |
| ▲ | Symbiote 4 hours ago | parent [-] | | https://eur-lex.europa.eu/eli/dir/1998/70/oj/eng This EU directive banned the sale of leaded petrol in the UK on 1 January 2000. | | |
| ▲ | tialaramex 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | Hmm. The thing is, EU directives aren't themselves law, or rather, in a sense they are but they're laws for the EU member states, telling them that they need to legislate to achieve this thing but without specifying how. The EU can write legislation which is binding on actual citizens, but it mostly writes directives, like this, which just tell the member states to do the legislating. So, was this directive actually implemented by the UK before it left? Or did they go "Eh, we achieved the intended goal anyway, no action" ? This way the EU doesn't have to worry about weird edge cases where the EU wants to control Foozling of Doodads but it turns out that in Poland ordinary people often Foozle their own Doodad at home and so their approach needs to consider individual citizens who want to Foozle a Doodad, but in Ireland that's crazy and you pay one of a few dozen Registered Doodad Foozlers to do it at scale, requiring a very different regulation to achieve the same goal. |
|
|
|
|
|
| ▲ | jiveturkey 15 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| > It is the top EV market. per-capita or by total volume? i ask because a sibling or child comment says that the number of cars sold in norway is pretty small (in part because the population is small). a quick google says 180k cars sold in norway in 2025 (we can round up to 100% EV) and 34M sold in China. It also says China has 50% EV sales. So by total volume Norway isn't close to the top. |
|
| ▲ | speedgoose 16 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| At least it doesn’t smell ICE fumes downtown. That’s neat. |
| |
| ▲ | nxm 13 hours ago | parent [-] | | Haven’t smell fumes downtown in 30 years since catalytic converters became prevalent | | |
| ▲ | speedgoose 7 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | You can try to bike behind a hybrid during a cold winter morning. | |
| ▲ | Tagbert 13 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | In the US, near a major roadway on a cold morning, the fumes are strong. Not every car or truck is maintained properly and running in cold weather really magnifies that effect. | |
| ▲ | dzhiurgis 5 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | You might have very good smog checks. Here in NZ I've recently replaced my Tesla's HEPA air filters which includes carbon filter which. I've got them slightly cheaper from somewhat ok supplier. Turns out there's ton of fake filters out there (i.e. vacuum filters). I was suffering every day I was driving it. Smog is insane everywhere. |
|
|
|
| ▲ | shiroiuma 12 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| >But that future will not arrive everywhere at the same point in time and Norway is very far ahead of the rest of the world due to a fairly unique set of circumstances: exporting your own oil and gas to be able to have a 'clean' (and up to recently heavily subsidized) transportation network is in a way just a gigantic bookkeeping trick. Not really. Even in a hypothetical future where all road vehicles are electric, we'll still need fossil fuels for a while. For one thing, it's probably going to be a while before airplanes can go electric. And production of plastics will probably need petroleum for a long time. |
| |
| ▲ | bluGill 10 hours ago | parent [-] | | Cars are the vast majortity of oil use though. The rest is more than a rounding error but not much more. |
|
|
| ▲ | expedition32 16 hours ago | parent | prev [-] |
| Most of the profits come from rich countries. And even then especially the more expensive cars. (Personally I am fine driving a 10 year old shit box because for me it is just a means of going from A to B and rather spend my money on other things) |
| |
| ▲ | jacquesm 16 hours ago | parent [-] | | My daily driver is approaching the ripe old age of 30, my main reason is a lack of software. | | |
| ▲ | bojan 15 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Are you doing the maintenance yourself? I guess at some point the yearly maintenance costs exceed the value of the car itself. | | |
| ▲ | pge 14 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Not the OP but have a 20-year-old car. The relevant calculation is not cost of annual repair v value of car, but rather annual cost vs annual cost of a new car. Even if you amortize the upfront cost of a new car over 20 years, the increased insurance cost and (depending on where you live) property taxes plus some annual maintenance, at least for me, is substantially more expensive than annual maintenance on my current car. | | |
| ▲ | jacquesm 14 hours ago | parent [-] | | Yes, precisely. The 2018 Mercedes I had before this one was a lot more expensive to keep rolling. And super unsafe. |
| |
| ▲ | jacquesm 14 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | I did a from-the-ground-up rebuild (including the engine) just after buying it. That cost an arm and a leg but all in (including the original car) it still came to ~half of what a new one would cost. Anything that had been 'improved' on it was brought back to stock. It's been super reliable, I've had it since jan 2020, put a considerable number of kms on it and it hasn't let me down (so far :) ). As for doing the maintenance myself, I don't have experience with this kind of car at all, I've worked a lot on classic Mini's, Citroens (2CV and DS) and Austin Maxi. But never anything like this so I'm more than happy to let someone else earn a buck on it. But it's been pretty cheap to run so far, fuel, oil, regular service and once a control arm that got bent out of shape. Compared to a new vehicle I'm considerably better off. | |
| ▲ | jjav 12 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | > I guess at some point the yearly maintenance costs exceed the value of the car itself. This is often mentioned but is not relevant. In terms of cost, what matters is whether an equally good (for whatever metrics a car is "good" to you) replacement car will cost less or more. | |
| ▲ | kjkjadksj 9 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | That would not be the case amortized I expect. You can sell virtually any car for $5k as a floor price I’d say. Most yearly maintenance amounts to changing oil. Maybe tires every four years. Every 5-10 years maybe a bigger couple hundred dollar job. That has been about my experience owning used cars. But still well below $5k/yr. |
| |
| ▲ | alliao 14 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | damn it missed the whole suicidal airbag scandal too! | |
| ▲ | speedgoose 15 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | I’m what part of the world do you live to have a carbureted car from the late 90s? | | |
| ▲ | jacquesm 15 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Netherlands. And fuel injection has been a thing since the 1930s for Diesel and the 1950's for vehicles. Yes, it has an ECU and ooh, gollies there is software in that. But it's completely invisible from an interaction point of view, there are no screens, all the buttons just do what they are told, there are no 'upgrades', no bugs, interfaces, restarts and attempts to kill me through 'assistance'. | | |
| ▲ | speedgoose 15 hours ago | parent [-] | | I understand the appeal. Do you use paper maps too or you have a smartphone on the dashboard ? That would be a bit cheating. | | |
| ▲ | jacquesm 15 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | I know where I'm going :) | |
| ▲ | antonvs 14 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | It’s interesting to see how people who grew up with smartphones think. It’s entirely possible to get around without smartphones or paper maps. There are road signs, written directions, verbal directions. The main time I used to use a paper map was driving long distance trips in a foreign country. | | |
| ▲ | cozzyd 14 hours ago | parent [-] | | Yeah I wonder how they get around on a bike... | | |
| ▲ | speedgoose 7 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | If I don’t know the area and it’s not trivial, I use a map on my phone or my watch. | |
| ▲ | _carbyau_ 11 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Really? Sounds like you are a possible customer... can I interest you in a handlebar mount for your phone? https://www.quadlockcase.com.au/products/bike-mount | | |
| ▲ | cozzyd 10 hours ago | parent [-] | | I have one, but I haven't used it since I got a smart watch (I mostly used it to track my speed). I actually really dislike navigation apps, since they tend to take you on strange routes that maybe are slightly shorter? To be fair, I haven't owned a car in 15 years, so I rarely drive. |
|
|
|
|
| |
| ▲ | selimthegrim 10 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | I think Pakistan they are still kicking around. |
|
|
|