Remix.run Logo
bwestergard 15 hours ago

"exporting your own oil and gas to be able to have a 'clean' (and up to recently heavily subsidized) transportation network is in a way just a gigantic bookkeeping trick"

How so?

If every oil exporter used some of their oil revenue to switch to EVs, that would, all things equal, hasten the transition to EVs. The U.S. is not doing that.

yndoendo 14 hours ago | parent | next [-]

I still find it funny when it comes to oil between the USA and Saudi Arabia.

Saudi Arabia started moving the electrical system to renewables where USA is doubling down on fossil fuels.

Saudi Arabia is the drug dealer that knows you don't consumer your own supply unless you must were the USA consumes the crack they sell.

My next vehicle will 100% be pure EV, not Tesla.

appreciatorBus 14 hours ago | parent | next [-]

> the drug dealer that knows you don't consumer your own supply unless you must

So true. There's nothing incompatible at all with: a) realizing that earth has gifted you with a valuable but limited & polluting energy source b) realizing that you'd be foolish to get you own country hooked on it, but it's not a bad business if you can get other countries hooked on it.

Instead we get oil rich areas seemingly determined to show off how much of their oil they can waste.

rob74 13 hours ago | parent [-]

Wow, so now the US oil barons who lobbied Trump to kill renewables and EVs are even worse than Mohammed "Bonesaw*" bin Salman Al Saud? That's really something, if you look at it that way...

* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assassination_of_Jamal_Khashog...

deaux 29 minutes ago | parent | next [-]

Yes? I don't think you can argue in good faith that the latter causes more total harm and damage than the former. It's really quite something to look at it in a different way..

jacquesm 13 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Either you're too smart for me or I just can't follow you, but could you please expand a bit on your comment? I find it hard to link it to the parent, but I realize that may be on me.

rob74 12 hours ago | parent [-]

Sorry, it was referring more to the grandparent comment, that referred to Saudi Arabia behaving more responsibly than the US, and Mohammed bin Salman is of course the crown prince and prime minister of Saudi Arabia.

svpk 11 hours ago | parent [-]

They're comparing Saudi Arabia to a drug dealer; I don't think they're ascribing any moral virtue to the Saudi regime. They just believe the Saudis are acting more intelligently.

Retric 12 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

How you use worse implies a wider judgment than how someone behaves on a single issue. Real people are more complicated than Disney characters.

raw_anon_1111 11 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

How many people have Trump’s wars in Venezuela and Iran killed?

Tagbert 11 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

The funny thing is the US doesn’t really consume much Saudi Oil. The US is a net exporter of oil, though they do import some specific types of oils and export more of others.

The US’s interest in the Middle East oil is a lot about stabilizing oil prices. At least it used to be when there was a rational policy and competent executors.

9 hours ago | parent [-]
[deleted]
laughing_man 11 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Transitioning to renewables makes economic sense for the Saudis because they make more money selling a barrel of oil for transportation fuel and generating power with wind and solar.

The US has vast reserves of coal and natural gas. We generally don't use oil to generate power either -- oil is something like 0.4% of the total power generated, because we have vast amounts of natural gas and coal to use instead.

The situation isn't the result of some crafty master plan on the part of the Saudis. It's jusut what makes sense.

ZeroGravitas 3 hours ago | parent [-]

But in the context of the current topic, USA could be demonstrating their technical prowess and running EVs off this amazing coal and gas bounty.

Instead they seem to be in a cycle of buying massive inefficient vehicles and then getting annoyed at gas prices.

Oil is 2/5ths of US energy use.

ericmay 12 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

The oil market is global and the US is a big part of that but it’s not the only one. You can always make changes to energy sources later and as new technologies are unlocked perhaps we can even skip some headaches now. Obviously there’s the geostrategic angle now which you see play out in Iran and Venezuela.

As other countries move to reliance on Chinese rare earth processing for renewable technology, it drives their oil and gas consumption down which means more oil and gas for those who are still using it.

If you really want to look at this analogy about drug dealers then really what you see is that America is the big boss here and an energy and military super power, and Saudi Arabia is just another dealer under American protection and if they don’t do what we tell them to do they’ll get the boot.

spicymaki 12 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Like the drug dealers where I grew up they are making the neighborhood a really terrible place to live. They might have a nice house right now, but the homes around them are burning.

kortilla 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

The electrical system is unrelated to oil for transportation.

bluGill 13 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

The US is moving the grid renewable. The guys at top might not think so and yell loudly not to, but they can't stop things, only put the brakes on a little.

ourmandave 12 hours ago | parent [-]

They've pumped the brakes pretty hard by cutting EPA standards, subsidizing coal, suing to stop wind and solar projects, cutting green energy grants by $8B, yoinking solar tax credits, trying to rewrite the Clean Air Act to block states from regulating emissions, shield Big Oil from litigation for climate deception, and repeating Big Oil's lies and disinformation.

jdlshore 12 hours ago | parent [-]

The economics are against them nonetheless. Solar + battery is seeing massive rollouts.

deaux 27 minutes ago | parent [-]

Those rollouts are seeing massive cutbacks from what I've read, as half the country is straight up banning new solar. Good luck ever getting that off the books.

jasonfarnon 13 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

"If every oil exporter used some of their oil revenue to switch to EVs, that would, all things equal, hasten the transition to EVs."

The premise is all things aren't equal. The oil Norway would have used just gets used somewhere else so what difference does it make what Norway does instead. I don't know if that's the reality of the situation but if it is just an offset, it does sound like a bookkeeping trick doesn't it?

blargey 12 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Norway switching from ICEs to EVs objectively reduces global oil consumption+burning by exactly that much.

Norway exporting oil increases oil supply, but doesn't increase consumption. The world's oil consumers are not supply-constrained; the producers are not running at 100% capacity, and they'll happily pick up the slack if Norway just stopped exporting oil for no reason. And there's a large amount of consumption that can't be offset by electrification in the first place (petrochemicals, long distance flight, etc) so there's not even a theoretical future end-state where they require a non-EV-using counterparty to buy their oil to fund their EV usage.

Calling it a "bookkeeping trick" is just verbal sleigh-of-hand.

patmorgan23 11 hours ago | parent [-]

Increases in supply also increase consumption, we use lots of cheap stuff, but not very much of expensive stuff.

jonasdegendt 4 hours ago | parent [-]

This would be true but you're not accounting for OPEC and other groups (e.g. historically the Texas Railroad Commission in the United States, not sure how relevant they still are) to balance production and price per barrel to what they think is agreeable.

Oil hasn't been supply constrained since the 50's, it's price is largely based on what producing countries agree on, as well as geopolitics.

Additionally, governments levy a decent amount of taxes on certain end products such as gasoline. They might very well, as they have in the past, decide to simply up their tax revenue as prices of crude and derivatives go down.

paulryanrogers 12 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Only if Norway's lack of internal consumption must be met with equal and similarly destructive consumption elsewhere.

Consider if others followed their lead. Then oil would be used less for transportation, one of its most destructive and singular uses, and more for manufacturing or medical or less wasteful uses.