| ▲ | alexpotato 7 hours ago |
| To play devil's advocate: Some people argue that the difficulty of passing laws in the United States is "a feature not a bug" b/c it prevents the US from creating laws too quickly. You could argue the House of Lords did the same: by vetoing bills, it acted as a "speed bump" to laws that might cause too much change too quickly. |
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| ▲ | kiba 6 hours ago | parent | next [-] |
| It doesn't really help the United States create good law. You could argue that it worsen the quality of laws by forcing kludges to be built on top of kludges. A sortition panel collecting random people from all walks of life to give feedback on law would probably improve the quality of law more than any amount of procedure and paperwork ever will. We mistaken paperwork with deliberation and quality control. |
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| ▲ | kennywinker 6 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | I’d go further. To bypass the deadlocked congress, obama used executive orders in new and expansive ways. That ratcheted things up. Now trump is using executive orders even MORE expansively, to do things that are patently undemocratic and unconstitutional (federalizing who can vote, ilegal tariffs). The kludges and hacks are causing a crumbling of democracy, not just mediocre law. | | |
| ▲ | michaelt 4 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | > To bypass the deadlocked congress, obama used executive orders in new and expansive ways. That ratcheted things up. While I agree - this has been an issue long before Obama. Any reasonable country should be able to decide on the legality of abortion through the normal political process - the public deliberates, they elect representatives, the representatives hammer out the fine print and pass legislation. But in the American system, the legality of abortion is decided at random, based on the deaths of a handful of lawyers born in the 1930s. If that person dies between ages 68-75, 84-87 or 91-95 abortion is illegal, if they die aged 76-83, or 88-91 it's legal. Why doesn't America deal with political questions using their political process? | | |
| ▲ | SllX 2 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | > Why doesn't America deal with political questions using their political process? Since 2022 we do. But it’s through the political process of the States. This has made a lot of people very angry because a bunch of States have got it all wrong, and the exact way they got it wrong depends on your point of view on the subject, but no matter which side of the debate you’re on, some on your side most assuredly want to preempt all the States that got it all wrong with Federal law. That Congress hasn’t come to a political consensus is the Federal political consensus. | | |
| ▲ | bigstrat2003 an hour ago | parent [-] | | > Since 2022 we do. But it’s through the political process of the States. Which is exactly as it should be. There's nothing in the Constitution which gives the federal government power to act on this issue, therefore it should be decided on a state by state basis. Government works best when it is done based on the values and needs of the local population, not one solution for an entire heterogeneous nation. |
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| ▲ | jjmarr 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Because that requires compromise and Americans are raging absolutists that need immediate results. In 1791, abolitionists tried to end slavery in the British Empire but couldn't get it passed by the House of Commons. Henry Dundas changed the bill so it would be phased-in. Existing slaves wouldn't be emancipated but their children would be. That bill did pass. Slavery naturally ended over the following decades until the much smaller slave population was bought by the government and freed in 1833. In the USA, nobody budged until a Civil War happened and then the slaves were freed by force in the 1850s without monetary compensation. But that time, emancipation happened immediately after they got full power, there was no need to give money to racists, and no moral compromises were required. | | |
| ▲ | kelnos an hour ago | parent [-] | | > But that time, emancipation happened immediately after they got full power, there was no need to give money to racists, and no moral compromises were required. I really hope you were being sarcastic here... Emancipating the slaves during/after the Civil War was not an orderly, immediate process. And even once all slaves were freed, they continued to live second-class lives due to the laws of the time. | | |
| ▲ | jjmarr an hour ago | parent [-] | | Yes, it's sarcasm. I'm contrasting how Britain made their legal process gradual enough to match reality with the USA's demand that legal processes create reality. For reference, fully elective abortion legally doesn't exist in most of the UK. It's just that a fetus being dangerous to the mental health of the mother has progressively been interpreted more and more broadly... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abortion_in_the_United_Kingdom |
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| ▲ | SoftTalker 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | In the American system as originally founded, most of these things were intended to be decided by the states. | |
| ▲ | edgyquant 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | It’s more like Americans did decide, that it was illegal and judges decided they could use legal tricks to make it legal (which in turn meant as soon as they didn’t have the majority the opposite could occur.) |
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| ▲ | AnthonyMouse 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | The problem here isn't the temptation to bypass a system intended to require consensus before action can be taken. That temptation is present with any system that provides any checks on autocratic tyranny. The problem is that something like executive orders are being used to bypass that system instead of being prevented from doing so. | | |
| ▲ | IgorPartola 3 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | The problem is that the US constitution was written before people realized that the natural consequence of that type of constitution is a two party system. You cannot have a viable third party in the long run because it will necessarily weaken one or the other existing party and that party will then absorb it. So no you have a situation where the government can have split brain: some parts of the legislative branch can be party A and other parts can be party B and the president isn’t tied to either. From what I understand when the US “brings democracy” to another country we set up a parliamentary system and that system is widely seen as better. You cannot form an ineffective government by definition, though you can have a non-functioning government that is trying to form a coalition. These types of systems tend to find center because forming a coalition always requires some level of compromise. Our system oscillates between three states: party A does what they want, party B does what they want, and split brain and president does what he wants because Congress has no will to keep him accountable. What I would like to try is a combination of parliamentary system, approval voting, and possibly major legislation passed by randomly selecting a jury of citizens and showing the the pros and cons of a bill. If you cannot convince 1000 random citizens that we should go to war, maybe it’s not a good idea. | | |
| ▲ | AnthonyMouse an hour ago | parent [-] | | > The problem is that the US constitution was written before people realized that the natural consequence of that type of constitution is a two party system. The two party system is a consequence of using first past the post voting, which the US constitution doesn't even require. Use score voting instead, which can be done by ordinary legislation without any constitutional amendment, and you don't have a two party system anymore. |
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| ▲ | Panzer04 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | The point is that if you can't do the thing the democratic way (because the system is so biased against change as to make it impossible) then people will look for workarounds. The workarounds are accepted since otherwise nothing would get done at all, and then people are surprised when the workaround gets used in ways they no longer like. | | |
| ▲ | AnthonyMouse an hour ago | parent [-] | | When people say "nothing gets done" they mean "we can't do things that a substantial plurality of the public doesn't want done" -- which is exactly what's supposed to happen. If you break the mechanisms ensuring that stays the case, what do you honestly expect to happen the next time it's you in the minority? |
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| ▲ | canarypilot 5 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Yes, and, Bush-Cheney were the modern forefathers of pushing the unitary executive theory, building on the work of Reagan after a 90’s shaped lull. Reagan took ideas from The Heritage Foundation, who returned in the ‘24 elections pushing Project 2025. A natural endgame and roadmap for the movement of power to the president, that is being followed as approximately as any political roadmap ever is. Remember that each time you’re tempted to crack a Coors light! | | |
| ▲ | kennywinker 5 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | So I should remember that… never? Got it. ;) | |
| ▲ | edgyquant 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Unitary executive is popular and doesn’t have to mean an imperial presidency. Actually the most popular version, albeit not the one you hear about the most, is the libertarian idea that the executive should have little power at all and almost no bureaucracy to command. |
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| ▲ | laughing_man 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | The argument isn't that it helps the US create good law. It's that it keeps the US from creating too many bad laws. | |
| ▲ | bhk 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | "The more laws, the less justice." -- Cicero | |
| ▲ | 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | [deleted] | |
| ▲ | rybosworld 6 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Government needs to be more Agile. | | |
| ▲ | SanjayMehta 4 hours ago | parent [-] | | Government needs to be less. | | |
| ▲ | JamesTRexx 4 hours ago | parent [-] | | Government needs to be for all the people, and not just for the 1% with wealth and power. Not more or less. | | |
| ▲ | edgyquant 3 hours ago | parent [-] | | This seems to go against human nature. Government is always for the 1% and in the rare case it isn’t it simply just creates a new 1% |
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| ▲ | trebligdivad 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Note that this change is not getting rid of the Lords; it's just getting rid of Hereditary piers - i.e. those passed down through generations. We'll still have Lords who have been selected by previous governments within their lifetime; so they still provide that speed bump; but do it in a way that means they were at some point chosen by an elected body. |
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| ▲ | hunterpayne 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | Not sure how you think this will improve things. None of these people are elected. They likely got these positions by doing political favors. They are likely even more out of touch with the electorate. They are even more likely to make decisions based upon ideology instead of practical quality of life considerations. Seems to me this just centralizes power even more in the hands of a few. And that's the last thing the UK needs right now. | | |
| ▲ | dotancohen an hour ago | parent | next [-] | | You argue that a lot of things are likely. Why don't you take the time to check instead of slander? | |
| ▲ | Nursie an hour ago | parent | prev [-] | | > They are likely even more out of touch with the electorate. Not compared to the hereditary peers. In theory these people have proved themselves useful in some way and bring expertise to the upper chamber, rather than just being born in the right family. In practice there is some of that and some political cronyism. > Seems to me this just centralizes power even more in the hands of a few. That is exactly what hereditary peerage is. The few, by definition. The aristocracy. |
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| ▲ | kergonath 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| > You could argue the House of Lords did the same It can still do the same thing without hereditary peers. A slow-moving, conservative (in the classical sense) upper chamber is a classic in bicameral systems, it is not specific to the House of Lords. |
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| ▲ | post-it 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| The House of Lords isn't going anywhere. The majority of the chamber are life peers, functionally identical to Canadian senators. |
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| ▲ | tialaramex 6 hours ago | parent [-] | | And for many years now, even the remaining minority of hereditary peers in the chamber are elected to that job, albeit not by the general public. My guess is that all those who are actually useful will get "grandfathered in" by this legislation making them life peers so that they can keep doing the exact same job. Many life peers (who are all entitled to be there) rarely attend, so it would be kinda silly if Lord Snootington, the fifteenth Earl of Whatever is kicked out for being a hereditary peer despite also being the linchpin of an important committee and one of the top 100 attendees in the Lords, while they keep Bill Smith, a business tycoon who got his peerage for giving a politician a sack of cash and hasn't been in London, never mind the House of Lords, since 2014... | | |
| ▲ | skissane 6 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | > My guess is that all those who are actually useful will get "grandfathered in" by this legislation making them life peers The government made a political deal with the hereditary peers-drop their fight against this bill, and in exchange the government will grant a subset of them life peerages But that political deal is just an informal extralegal “understanding”, it isn’t actually in the text of the bill-having the bill text grant someone a life peerage would upset the status of peerages as a royal prerogative, and they don’t want to do that | | |
| ▲ | thaumasiotes 3 hours ago | parent [-] | | > The government made a political deal with the hereditary peers-drop their fight against this bill, and in exchange the government will grant a subset of them life peerages Wouldn't a "deal" theoretically benefit both sides? That one doesn't offer the hereditary peers anything they don't already have. | | |
| ▲ | dragonwriter 2 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | > Wouldn't a "deal" theoretically benefit both sides? That one doesn't offer the hereditary peers anything they don't already have. They don't have any expectation against losing their seats entirely when hereditary peers are ejected from the House, and, even with a sufficient number of life peers voting with them, they couldn't actually prevent such a bill from passing, only delay it. Securing a commitment of life seats is getting something they didn't have. | |
| ▲ | mastax 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Only 92 of the 842 peers are hereditary currently, so it’s not really necessary to convince them to agree; the deal only needs to be seen as fair enough by the other peers. Or really, it only needs to be seen as fair enough to the House of Commons. | | |
| ▲ | dragonwriter 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | > Only 92 of the 842 peers are hereditary currently, so it’s not really necessary to convince them to agree; As I understand it, it was necessary (in order to pass the bill without the delay the Lords can impose) to secure a deal on the hereditary peers (not with them), because the Conservatives (the largest Lords faction) and many of the cross-benchers among the life peers, a sufficient number in total to delay the bill (the Lords can't actually block it permanently) oppose the bill, not just a group among the existing hereditary peers. |
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| ▲ | hunterpayne 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | The hereditary peers were elected and that's what is being discarded? So before at least the voters got some choice and that's going away? Amazing... | | |
| ▲ | Nursie an hour ago | parent [-] | | > The hereditary peers were elected By a larger pool of hereditary peers. Previously several hundred members of the aristocracy were all entitled to a seat in there by virtue of their birth and title alone. After reforms in 1999 this group had to nominate from within themselves a subset of 92 hereditary peers who would be allowed to participate in the chamber. If by "the voters" you mean the general public, then no, they had no say at all. |
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| ▲ | verbify 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Just in case someone gets the wrong end of the stick, the UK isn’t getting rid of the House of Lords, just the hereditary members (of which there aren’t many). |
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| ▲ | marcus_holmes 4 hours ago | parent [-] | | But almost all the remainder are political appointees. It's disappointing that they didn't replace the hereditary peers with some other non-politically-appointed folks. There is a very great need to have people in the House of Lords who are not beholden to any of the political parties. I personally favour a lottery system where random people get given the opportunity to join the House of Lords for the rest of their working lives. |
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| ▲ | martythemaniak 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| That view is a leftover from a bygone era, when others could look at the US with often grudging admiration. Today? The US itself doesn't think much of itself, and to the rest of us it is a cautionary tale. |
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| ▲ | hunterpayne 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | "The US itself doesn't think much of itself" If you ever find yourself wondering why US voters elected someone like Trump...if you ever wondered why institutions in the US are crumbling and experts don't have much credibility, this is why. I assure you, most Americans think very highly of the US compared to the rest of the world (especially if they have traveled). Only the out of touch don't and the reasons why most US voters don't give them much credibility is the absolutely crazy amount of twisting of facts to align to that POV. As people like that are slowly removed/aged out from those institutions, the institutions will magically start working well again and regain public trust. In case you wondered how a potted plant like Trump can somehow perform better than those experts, that's how. Because people who believe things like that have to twist around their worldview to such an extreme that its impossible for them to be competent no matter how smart or how much education they have. Its also how people who claim to be for peace and democracy somehow end up supporting a religious oligarchy that funds terrorism across an entire region. Ideology makes you dumb to the degree that you are smart. PS Europe is the cautionary tale here. Again, your leaders are far smarter than Trump. Does that seem to matter? Nope, because ideology destroys the effectiveness they (you) should have. | | |
| ▲ | anon291 an hour ago | parent [-] | | > Because people who believe things like that have to twist around their worldview to such an extreme that its impossible for them to be competent no matter how smart or how much education they have. Extremely well said |
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| ▲ | keeganpoppen 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| yes. just because it is unfashionable to argue in favor of aristocracy does not mean that it doesn’t have its own intrinsic set of benefits and drawbacks… the drawbacks of ultra democracy (populism, etc.) are all cast aside as the innocent folly of people yearning to be free but not knowing whereof to yearn (“it’s not a system problem, it’s a people problem, but we must no matter what condemn ourselves to people problems because anything else is anathema to “liberty”, or whatever”). but dare utter one word in favor of conservatism in the original, true sense, and it is as though democracy is an unalloyed good with absolutely no downside. like, clearly we should have a direct democracy with no senate and no house, no? anything else is just allowing the Powers That Be to patriarchy everything! |
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| ▲ | thrance 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| It's only a speed bump for progressive laws while the most reactionary garbage gets fast tracked with their approvals. |
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| ▲ | vkou 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| You get something far worse in the US. Which is a government that no longer feels any need to either pass or be bound by laws. |
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| ▲ | anon291 an hour ago | parent | next [-] | | Ah yes, the country whose supreme court struck down its global tariffs and then forced the federal government into refunding all the money back is truly no longer bound by its own laws. | |
| ▲ | nxm 5 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Hyperbole beyond belief there |
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| ▲ | scott_w 6 hours ago | parent | prev [-] |
| I think a good revising chamber is critical to good democracy, though the Lords recently have been playing silly buggers around the Employment Rights Act and ignoring the Salisbury Convention (which is that they shouldn’t block manifesto commitments). I do think the USA goes too far, which has led to frustration among the public and contributed to Trump and the resulting behaviour. I’ve said before that I think the US House of Representatives should have a mechanism to override Senate speed bumps, though not without effort. The idea is to encourage the legislature to compromise but maintain the “primacy” of the House if the Senate is being obstinate. Something like the Parliament Act, is what I’d have in mind. |
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| ▲ | hunterpayne 22 minutes ago | parent | next [-] | | The Senate in the US is the upper house and can override the House. There is no "primacy" of the House in the US system. The only place where anything like that exists is in impeachment (which is for any member of the executive or judicial branch, not just the president) where the House simply has more votes than the Senate (each member gets 1 vote). Those types of hearings are pretty rare (usually). | |
| ▲ | hardlianotion 6 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Which manifesto commitments have been blocked in this parliament? |
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