| ▲ | CGMthrowaway 7 hours ago |
| So much of this started with the rise of the peer-review journal cartel, beginning with Pergamon Press in 1951 (coincidentally founded by Ghislaine Maxwell's father). "Peer review" didn't exist before then, science papers and discussion was published openly, and scientists focused on quality not quantity. |
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| ▲ | leoc 6 hours ago | parent | next [-] |
| I'm not sure that the system was ever that near to perfection: for example, John Maddox of Nature didn't like the advent of pre-publication peer review, but that presumably had something to do with it limiting his discretion to approve and desk-reject whatever he wanted. But in any case it (like other aspects of the cozy interwar and then wartime scientific world) could surely never have survived the huge scaling-up that had already begun in the post-war era and created the pressure to switch to pre-publication peer reivew in the first place. |
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| ▲ | canjobear 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Peer review existed before 1951 in the US at least. See for example Einstein’s reaction to negative reviews when he tried to publish in Physical Review in 1935 https://paeditorial.co.uk/post/albert-einstein-what-did-he-t... |
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| ▲ | throwaway27448 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| > coincidentally founded by Ghislaine Maxwell's father A crazy world we live in where Robert Maxwell's daughter is more notorious than he is. |
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| ▲ | LarsDu88 5 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Fun fact, he almost got the worldwide console rights to Tetris back in the 80s, and tried going to Soviet officials to get those rights. To the point he's the antagonist of a recent "Tetris" movie that came out. | | | |
| ▲ | lovich 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Never knew of the guy but what a terrible sounding person from his Wikipedia at least. Shit apple doesn’t fall far from the shit tree I guess. |
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| ▲ | jayde2767 33 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| I wish you had highlighted or bolded "cartel", which is exactly how those industry players act. |
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| ▲ | john_strinlai 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| >Pergamon Press in 1951 (coincidentally founded by Ghislaine Maxwell's father) perhaps a bit off-topic, but what is coincidental about this and/or what is the relevance of Ghislaine Maxwell here? |
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| ▲ | benterix 6 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | It's useless, but I'm ashamed to admit I found this tiny piece of trivia interesting. | | |
| ▲ | readthenotes1 4 hours ago | parent [-] | | Like the paywall blocking many scientific arti6, perhaps it would be best if we released also the Epstein Files? |
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| ▲ | bryanrasmussen 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | I believe by saying it is coincidental they are saying there is probably no relevance, just an interesting piece of trivia, why put out this interesting piece of trivia? Because maybe someone will be able to make an argument of relevance. | | |
| ▲ | pocksuppet 3 hours ago | parent [-] | | It's more than coincidental, but tangential to the point. It shows crime runs in families. |
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| ▲ | tialaramex 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Ghislaine's father (Robert Maxwell) was also a terrible person but for different reasons. Robert Maxwell was a crook, he used pension funds (supposed to be ring-fenced for the benefit of the pensioners) to prop up his companies, so, after his slightly mysterious death it was discovered that basically there's no money to pay people who've been assured of a pension when they retire. He was also very litigious. If you said he was a crook when he was alive you'd better hope you can prove it and that you have funding to stay in the fight until you do. So this means the sort of people who call out crooks were especially unhappy about Robert Maxwell because he was a crook and he might sue you if you pointed it out. | |
| ▲ | anonymars 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | I imagine it's the interesting peculiarity that the same people seem to crop up over and over and over again. Six degrees of Kevin Bacon or something, except it's like one or two degrees. As George Carlin said, "it's a big club, and you ain't in it" For example Donald Barr (father of twice-former US Attorney General Bill Barr) hiring college-dropout Jeffrey Epstein whilst headmaster at the elite Dalton School Additional fun facts about Donald Barr: he served in US intelligence during WWII, and wrote a sci-fi book featuring child sex slaves | | |
| ▲ | jl6 5 hours ago | parent [-] | | Also the Epstein-Barr virus causes Mono, the clone of .NET, which was created by Bill Gates, known associate of Epstein, whose father was president of the Washington State Bar Association. And you know who else works in Washington? Join the dots, people. | | |
| ▲ | Henchman21 4 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | This might be my fav HN comment ever. Well done! | |
| ▲ | underlipton 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | We call people who make connections like these "conspiracy theorists," until they're right, at which point we call them "right". And somewhere in between, if they manage to get a job, we call them "Simpsons writers." |
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| ▲ | bartread 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | If you want to know more about the history of Pergamon Press there's a great Behind the Bastards episode on Robert Maxwell (Ghislaine Maxwell's father) - who himself was a scumbag in a variety of ways that were entirely distinct from Ghislaine Maxwell's brand of scumbaggery - that covers this. Might even be a multipart episode - it's a while since I've listened to it, but I have a feeling it's at least a two parter. | |
| ▲ | pessimizer 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | "Coincidental" means random, with no causal connection being explicitly claimed. It just means that two things share some characteristic (such as being relatives.) The thing that is coincidental is that the person who founded the company being discussed is also the father of another person who current events have brought into prominence. It's why you would say something like "more than coincidental" if you were trying to make some causal claim, like one thing causing the other, or both things coming from the same cause. So, "What is coincidental about that?" is a weird question. It reads as a rhetorical claim of a causal connection through asking for a denial or a disproof of one. | | |
| ▲ | john_strinlai an hour ago | parent | next [-] | | sorry. what is the relevance to the discussion about journals and peer review is my main question. if i randomly mentioned that your name appears to be an alternate spelling of a 3-band active EQ guitar pedal, coincidentally sharing all of the letters except one, in my reply to you, most people would be confused. that is how i felt when randomly reading "Ghislaine Maxwell" in this context of journals and peer review. | |
| ▲ | 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | [deleted] |
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| ▲ | underlipton 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Some "fun" reading on the subject of Mr. Maxwell: https://sarahkendzior.substack.com/p/red-lines tl;dr He is the bridge that uncomfortably links Biden's former Secretary of State, Antony Blinken, to Jeffrey Epstein and Mossad. Hence, *gestures at the last couple of weeks and years*. Dude was just, like, Fraud Central, apparently. |
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| ▲ | butILoveLife 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-] |
| >scientists focused on quality not quantity. I know a PhD professor doing post doc or something, and he accepted a scientific study just because it was published in Nature. He didn't look at methodology or data. From that point forward, I have never really respected Academia. They seem like bottom floor scientists who never truly understood the scientific method. It helped that a year later Ivys had their cheating scandals, fake data, and academia wide replication crisis. |
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| ▲ | fc417fc802 4 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | When I read something in a textbook I blindly believe it, depending on the broader context and the textbook in question. Is that a bad thing? People are constantly filtering everything based on heuristics. The important thing is to know how deep to look in any given situation. Hopefully the person you're referring to is proficient at that. Keep in mind that research scientists need to keep abreast of far more developments than any human could possibly study in detail. Also that 50% of people are below average at their job. | | |
| ▲ | natpalmer1776 3 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | There is a vast difference between a student reading from a textbook and a researcher / scientist reading studies and/or papers. As a student you are to be directed* in your reading by an expert in the field of study that you are learning from. In many higher level courses a professor will assign multiple textbooks and assign reading from only particular chapters of those textbooks specifically because they have vetted those chapters for accuracy and alignment with their curriculum. As a researcher and scientist a very large portion of your job is verifying and then integrating the research of others into your domain knowledge. The whole purpose of replicating studies is to look critically at the methodology of another scientist and try as hard as you can to prove them wrong. If you fail to prove them wrong and can produce the same results as them, they have done Good Science. A textbook is the product of scientists and researchers Doing Science and publishing their results, other scientists and researchers verifying via replication, and then one of those scientists or researchers who is an expert in the field doing their best to compile their knowledge on the domain into a factually accurate and (relatively) easy to understand summary of the collective research performed in a specific domain. The fact is that people make mistakes, and the job of a professor (who is an expert in a given field) is to identify what errors have made it through the various checks mentioned above and into circulation, often times making subjective judgement calls about what is 'factual enough' for the level of the class they are teaching, and leverage that to build a curriculum that is sound and helps elevate other individuals to the level of knowledge required to contribute to the ongoing scientific journey. In short, it's not a bad thing if you're learning a subject by yourself for your own purposes and are not contributing to scientific advancement or working as an educator in higher-education. * You can self-study, but to become an expert while doing so requires extremely keen discernment to be able to root out the common misconceptions that proliferate in any given field. In a blue-collar field this would be akin to picking up 'bad technique' by watching YouTube videos published by another self-taught tradesman; it's not always obvious when it happens. | | |
| ▲ | fc417fc802 2 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | > There is a vast difference between a student reading from a textbook and a researcher / scientist reading studies and/or papers. Not really. Both are learning new things. Neither has the time or access to resources to replicate even a small fraction of things learned. Neither will ever make direct use of the vast majority of things learned. Thus both depend on a cooperative model where trust is given to third parties to whom knowledge aggregation is outsourced. In that sense a textbook and prestigious peer reviewed journals serve the same purpose. | |
| ▲ | jruohonen 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | > If you fail to prove them wrong and can produce the same results as them, they have done Good Science. Not really in my humble opinion. Sure, the Popperian vibe is kind of fundamental, but the whole truncation into binary-valued true/false categories seldom makes sense with many (or even most?) problems for which probabilities, effect sizes, and related things matter more. And if you fail to replicate a study, they may have still done Good Science. With replications, it should not be about Bad Science and Good Science but about the cumulation of evidence (or a lack thereof). That's what meta-analyses are about. When we talk about Bad Science, it is about the industrial-scale fraud the article is talking about. No one should waste time replicating, citing, or reading that. |
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| ▲ | Calavar 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | This is a good point. It is not humanly possible to verify every claim you read from every source. Ideally, you should independently verify claims that appear to be particularly consequential or particularly questionable on the surface. But at some point you have to rely on heuristics like chain of trust (it was peer reviewed, it was published in a reputable textbook), or you will never make forward progress on anything. | |
| ▲ | irishcoffee 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | > When I read something in a textbook I blindly believe it, depending on the broader context and the textbook in question. Is that a bad thing? It is if what you read is factually incorrect, yes. For example, I have read in a textbook that the tongue has very specific regions for taste. This is patently false. > Keep in mind that research scientists need to keep abreast of far more developments than any human could possibly study in detail. Also that 50% of people are below average at their job. So, we should probably just discount half of what we read from research scientists as "bad at their job" and not pay much attention to it? Which half? Why are you defending corruption? | | |
| ▲ | fc417fc802 3 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | You don't seem to be engaging in good faith. | |
| ▲ | cyberax 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | The problem is that you can't just verify everything yourself. You likely have your own deadlines, and/or you want to do something more interesting than replicating statistical tests from a random paper. | | |
| ▲ | irishcoffee 3 hours ago | parent [-] | | > The problem is that you can't just verify everything yourself. So the problem is reduced to "I believe what I want! This person said it and so I think it's true!" Sounds like politics in a nutshell. | | |
| ▲ | cyberax 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | No, it's not. It's reduced to "I trust people from a respectable scientific journal with 150 years of history". > Sounds like politics in a nutshell. Again, no. It sounds like the division of labor. The thing that made modern human societies possible. | | |
| ▲ | irishcoffee 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | Division of labor. Dividing labor between the "i'll pay you to work" and "I'm paid to work" The jokes write themselves, | | |
| ▲ | cyberax 20 minutes ago | parent [-] | | Yes? What is exactly funny here? This is literally how the civilization works. I'm paid to do my work, and I pay others to do their work. Do you grow your own food and sew your own clothes? Also, did you personally etch the microprocessor that runs your computer? The division of labor inherently means trusting others. So when I buy a bag of M4 screws, I'm not going to measure each screw with a micrometer, and I'm not taking X-ray spectra to verify their material composition. The academic world also used to trust large publishers to take care to actually review papers. It appears that this trust is now misplaced. But I don't think it was somehow stupid. |
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| ▲ | gus_massa 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Most of the times you don't "accept" results. You have to build something on them, like an extension or a similar version on other field. So usually the first step is try to understand the cryptic published version and do a reproduction or something as close as possible. The exact reproductions is never published, because journals don't accept them, but if you add a few tweaks here and there you have a nice seed for an article to publish somewhere. (I may "accept" an article in a field I don't care, but you probably should not thrust my opinion in fields I don't care.) | |
| ▲ | bee_rider 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Academia has problems, like everywhere else. But that seems like a big extrapolation from just one professor. Fake data—you can only get that type of scandal when people are checking the data. I’d be more skeptical of communities that never have that kind of scandal. |
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