| |
| ▲ | NewsaHackO 5 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | So the issue is the same as Anthropic. They do charge for it though their API. The users, however, want to use the discounted "unlimited" flat rate through the first-party app instead, then get mad when they are told they have to use the same API every other third-party app does. | | |
| ▲ | jacquesm 5 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | No, the problem is that the discounted rate exists in the first place. Essentially these are unfair business practices, product cross subsidization to ensure market dominance. See also: Microsoft and a whole bunch of other companies. And once they've got their monopoly position there is inevitably the rug-pull. I wonder if some CPO somewhere actually had the guts to put a 'rug pull' item on the product roadmap. | | |
| ▲ | carshodev 5 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | It's not unfair its how every business works. When your product is new or not yet good enough and you want people to try it you give them discounts, or if you want to drive traffic to your service you also do the same. Even traditional businesses do this with coupons. Is it unfair that Costco sells chickens for under cost because it drives usage to them? Companies like Uber did use massive funding and price subsidization to try and kill competition and then take a monopoly, but it is hard to assert that this is what google is doing now. And given that other competitors in the space, Anthropic are doing the exact same thing again its not as though they are alone. Also they could be subsidizing it because they want that usage type as it helps them train models better. Chatgpt and gpt4 were all ran at a loss and subsidized people just didn't know that. Almost all of the llm companies have been selling 1 dollar of llm compute for 50 cents as they valued the usage, training data, and users more than making profit now. This next generation of MOE and other newly trained models. Like opus 4.6, Cursor Composer 1.5, gpt 5.3 codex, and many of the others have been the first models where these companies are actually profitably serving the tokens at the api cost. This year has been the switch where ai companies are actually thinking of becoming profitable instead of just focusing on research and development. | | |
| ▲ | marcus_holmes 3 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | I'd agree with you if this was some new SaaS just opening its doors. But Google are banning entire accounts, with years, even decades, of personal history, photos, even phone accounts and app development projects. They very easily could just negate the anti-gravity access, which would be much, much more reasonable. | | |
| ▲ | Thorrez 3 hours ago | parent [-] | | >But Google are banning entire accounts, with years, even decades, of personal history, photos, even phone accounts and app development projects. Source? It seems to me only the anti-gravity access was blocked. The link says > Our product engineering team has confirmed that your account was suspended from using our Antigravity service. > there’s no way we can restore our accounts to use Antigravity anymore yeah? Disclosure: I work at Google, but not on anything related to this. | | |
| ▲ | fasbiner 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | [flagged] | | |
| ▲ | MattRix an hour ago | parent [-] | | This is a really weird response man. No need to get so judgy and personal. Besides, as far as I can tell what they said is true. The users are losing access to Antigravity, not to their entire Google accounts. So you’re getting mad at this guy just for stating facts. |
|
|
| |
| ▲ | jacquesm 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | > It's not unfair its how every business works. Not. On both counts. |
| |
| ▲ | NewsaHackO 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | > Essentially these are unfair business practices, product cross subsidization to ensure market dominance. Offering a different discounted rate for a service, though their first-party platform is not an unfair business practice whatsoever, though. The bar isn't what you disagree with, or what you think their motives are without any substantial proof. They could even make a honest argument that they can aggressively key-value cache default prompts from their own software reducing inference costs. >See also: Microsoft and a whole bunch of other companies. What does that have to do with Google? | | |
| ▲ | cyberax 4 hours ago | parent [-] | | Offering goods or services below the cost of their production is often illegal, though. It's called "dumping". Although in this case it's probably impossible to define, given the complexity of calculating the true cost of tokens. | | |
| ▲ | JumpCrisscross an hour ago | parent | next [-] | | > Offering goods or services below the cost of their production is often illegal, though. It's called "dumping" No. Dumping is an international-trade term. It doesn’t even require pricing below cost, just aiming “to increase market share in a foreign market by driving out competition and thereby create a monopoly situation where the exporter will be able to unilaterally dictate price and quality of the product” [1]. Loss leaders are common in commerce and entirely legal, as are free trials. I struggle to think of a competent jurisdiction that bans them. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dumping_(pricing_policy) | |
| ▲ | raw_anon_1111 41 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | So every company that is not immediately selling enough to cover its fixed costs and its variable cost should be illegal? Every company and every new initiative must be profitable from day one in your world? | |
| ▲ | Aurornis 36 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | First of all, I doubt they’re losing money in inference. Even across subscriptions. This is a tired argument that has been repeated so many times on HN. Second, that’s not what dumping means. It’s a specific term for international trade. Third, it’s not illegal to sell something for below the cost to make it. That’s another common misunderstanding. | |
| ▲ | jacquesm 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | And in this case the subsidy is paid for by tied sales from other users that don't actually use the service, which is another illegal business practice. | | |
| ▲ | raw_anon_1111 39 minutes ago | parent | next [-] | | So cable bundling channels is also “illegal” according to you? Since I don’t watch sports? | |
| ▲ | Aurornis 39 minutes ago | parent | prev [-] | | What are you talking about? Where is this illegal? It’s common to sell subscription services and then price them according to expected usage blended across the user base. |
| |
| ▲ | MichaelZuo 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | This obviously cannot be true, otherwise Costco would have been sued to oblivion for “dumping” their rotisserie chickens. | | |
| ▲ | cyberax 3 hours ago | parent [-] | | Costco gets to sidestep a lot of regulations because they technically are a private club with paid membership. The US anti-monopoly laws are also unusually weak. In other countries, selling a $7 chicken if it's subsidized by the sale of other goods can indeed be illegal. | | |
|
|
| |
| ▲ | aseipp 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | "PAYGO API access" vs "Monthly Tool Subscription" is just a matter of different unit economics; there's nothing particularly unusual or strange about the idea on its own, specific claims against Google notwithstanding. Of course, Google is still in the wrong here for instantly nuking the account instead of just billing them for API usage instead (largely because an autoban or whatever easier, I'm sure). | | |
| ▲ | kuboble 12 minutes ago | parent | next [-] | | The ban hammer is the scary part. I am afraid of using any Google services in experimental way from the fear that my whole Google existence will be banned. I think blocking access temporarily with a warning would be much more suitable. Unblocking could be even conditioned on a request to pay for the abused tokens | |
| ▲ | hvb2 36 minutes ago | parent | prev [-] | | I doubt they would have the ability to charge them for it. They never signed up for api token usage? |
| |
| ▲ | raw_anon_1111 43 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | So you are saying a company should never reinvest profits in the company to support another money losing business until it’s profitable? Should Netflix for instance not invested money from renting DVDs to invest in a streaming service? Apple not use the profits it was making from selling Apple //e’s to create the Mac? | |
| ▲ | kuboble 20 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | No, it's more like stuffing your pockets in all-you-can-eat buffet | |
| ▲ | ludjer 32 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Its called economies of scale. When they server 200000 ai subscriptions they dont expect everyone to use the max. They expect some will use more and some will use less and at the end of the day it will even out. Thats how every service works that is for the masses. As soon as you want a guaranteed 1000 tokens you should pay for that. | |
| ▲ | YetAnotherNick 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Just because all you can eat buffet exists doesn't mean that the food is free or you can take away the food. The food exists in discounted rate only if you consider it unlimited food. For normal folks they make profit. Claude code could possibly make profit because the average usage doesn't come close to exhausting the limits. | | |
| ▲ | kuboble 9 minutes ago | parent [-] | | This exactly.
I'm using 10% of my max plan on the weeks that I'm working a lot. Hit a 4-hour limit once over few months and never let it run overnight. And I'm very happy with my subscription |
|
| |
| ▲ | 21 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | [deleted] | |
| ▲ | mannanj 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | However someone else said this, and I agree, if I have an AI use my claude-code CLI how is not valid first-party app use? It would be different if they would disallow others to use your claude-code account, and I think most including these AI companies would argue AI is supposed to replace and augment humans. So they aren't banning AI's from using the CLI, right- though thats what some of them are seemingly wanting to do. |
| |
| ▲ | hatsix 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Google wants usage that earns them street cred, not usage from bots who will never evaluate the output. They're all fighting tooth and nail to acquire customers, both free and paid... they didn't want their giveaways to be burned. | | |
| ▲ | causal 3 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | But banning accounts wholesale is not going to earn them more customers. They could have just disabled Gemini access, or even given a warning first. I don't use OpenClaw, I do pay hundreds per month for AI subscriptions, and I will not be giving that money to Google while they treat their customers like this. | | | |
| ▲ | ipaddr 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | So they ban a group of early adopters who picked their product and who shape opinions. |
| |
| ▲ | renewiltord 39 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | If I say “you can use my car for $250/month if you don’t smoke in it” and then you pay me that money and you drive around until one day you smoke in it, I’m not going to let you smoke in my car. I told you not to smoke in it and you smoked in it. That’s the deal. All seems fine to me tbh. | | |
| ▲ | kuboble 4 minutes ago | parent [-] | | I think it's a bad analogy.
For one - smoking does very high permanent damage to a car interior. Two - the usage pattern was Shaun's toc but not obviously against the spirit. More like "you can use my car to drive around as much as you want"
And then going:
Obviously I didn't mean driving to another coast on a highway |
| |
| ▲ | SilverElfin 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Yep it sounds like Google is charging too little, and taking losses that would be unsustainable for other companies, to try and win the market on AI coding products. Which is a violation of anti trust law, I think. Now that people are using their pricing in an unexpected way where their product isn’t the one winning from their anti competitive practices, they’re punishing the users. Classic monopolistic behavior. And why we need to tax mega corp more and break them up. | |
| ▲ | anonym29 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | [flagged] |
|