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gjsman-1000 6 hours ago

Draconian because everyone’s shocked when Terms of Service are literally Terms of Service?

ninjagoo 3 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Terms of Service that span multiple pages of legalese and require an attorney to parse, for something that is either 'free' or a few $ per month, and can result in loss of service across multiple product lines, AND has binding lopsided arbitration requirements, is not only draconian, it is unconscionable.

Look at how messed up this is: Google Attorneys, paid hundreds of $/hour, spending hours and hours putting together these "Terms of Service" on one side; and a simple consumer on the other side, making a few $ per hour, not trained in legalese, expected to make a decision on a service that is supposed to cost a few $ a month, and if you make an honest mistake, can cause you a lot of trouble in your life.

hnburnsy 2 hours ago | parent [-]

This is how I feel when reading my 100 page home owners insurance policy.

ninjagoo an hour ago | parent [-]

I'm beginning to think that the law needs to be that if there are such egregious terms of service, then the company needs to pay for the consumer's attorney at litigation, no matter the cause of litigation, and no matter the outcome.

I don't have a formal contract with my electricity and water provider; why should there be a dozen pages or longer contract for an email/ISP/Phone provider? Email, Internet, Phones are essential services. Insurance might fall into the same bucket in civilized nations.

cogman10 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

You can call the ToS draconian, yes.

Just because something is in the ToS doesn't mean it's reasonable.

gjsman-1000 6 hours ago | parent [-]

Why is it unreasonable?

It’s a subsidized price; conditional to using their tooling. Don’t want to use their tooling? Pay the API rates. The API is sitting right there, ready to use for a broader range of purposes.

It’s only unreasonable if you think the customer has a right to have their cake and eat it too.

jacquesm 5 hours ago | parent | next [-]

> It’s a subsidized price; conditional to using their tooling.

Yes, because you are giving them your data. So you're not actually paying for usage. What they should do instead is be upfront about why this is subsidized and/or not subsidize it in the first place.

ocdtrekkie 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I think the permaban without notification on first violation (that most violators likely weren't even aware was a violation) is unreasonable. This should almost certainly be illegal if it is not already under the DSA or similar, particularly for a monopolist of Google's scale.

johncolanduoni 5 hours ago | parent [-]

What about this ban is anticompetitive? The only think I can think of is accusing them of dumping product (as opposed to price discrimination), in which case the remedy is going to be to making them charge the API price for everything.

NewsaHackO 5 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Apparently every action Google does that people don't like is anticompetitive.

oenton 3 hours ago | parent [-]

That's clearly not a good faith interpretation of the commenter you're referring to. Do better.

> Please respond to the strongest plausible interpretation of what someone says, not a weaker one that's easier to criticize. Assume good faith.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

NewsaHackO 2 hours ago | parent [-]

lol

ocdtrekkie 5 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

The issue with them being a monopolist is less about competition and more about the fact them penalizing you on one of their products can result in them deleting you from the Internet. You can lose decades of email history, the ability to publish apps on over half of the mobile devices on the globe, etc.

In Europe the Digital Services Act (DSA) is beginning to set expectations, particularly for large platforms about not just clear documentation of their terms, but also a meaningful human appeal process with transparency and communication requirements for actions taken.

The DSA is more focused on social networks, but if you were to apply the concepts of the DSA to this story, Google would have violated it several times over.

jauntywundrkind 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

We can debate on the policy.

The punishment, of being kicked out of your Google account for a zero-tolerance first offense, is completely unreasonable, is incredibly extreme Lawful Evil alignment.

The damage to individuals that Google is willing to just hand out here, to customers they have had for decades, who have their lives built around Google products, is absurd. This is criminally bad behavior and whatever the terms of service say, this is an affront to the dignity of man. This is evil. And beyond any conceivable reason.

Edit: perhaps not the entire account is locked? https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47116330

gjsman-1000 2 hours ago | parent [-]

> this is an affront to the dignity of man

This right here is an insane take to the opposite direction. Abuse, violence, torture, war, oppression, these are affronts to the dignity of man. Being kicked off a service from one business is absolutely not. It’s an inconvenience, but does not determine whether you will have bodily integrity.

By this logic, eviction from an apartment is a torture regardless of what the tenant did.

salawat 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Tradition warrants a negotiation phase when one party wishes to change the terms of an agreement, or becomes cognizant that the counterparty may wish to do the same.

The tech industry has gorged on non-participation in this facet of contract law, instead resorting to all or nothing clickwrap, which is, barring existential or egregious circumstances, unwarranted, and in my opinion, is fundamentally unreasonable, and should be an invalid exercise of contract law. Especially given the size of one of the party's in comparison to the other.

qeternity 5 hours ago | parent [-]

> Tradition warrants a negotiation phase when one party wishes to change the terms of an agreement, or becomes cognizant that the counterparty may wish to do the same.

They didn't change the agreement. One party violated it, and the other party withdrew as a result.

This is so vanilla. But people will moan because they want subsidized tokens.

salawat 4 minutes ago | parent [-]

I don't have a pony in this race my good poster, I just calls it how I see it, and I have a long history of calling out the fundamentally abusive character on non-negotiable one way contracting, and the ill effects it has on society.

Only people moaning here seem to be a bunch of wannabe Google PO's upset that people are handing machines a data construct they are designed to accept, and the machine is accepting, and using the token the way they were designed. Looks for some reason Google appears to resent that their lack of automating checks to deny those OAuth tokens is being utilized, and seems to think termination of customers who could probably be corrected with a simple message is the most reasonable response.

With instincts like that, it makes me happy everyday that for my needs, I can make do with doing things on my own hardware I've collected over the years. The Cloud has too much drama potential tied up in it.

LinXitoW 5 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

A flat rate is always a mixture of low usage people subsidizing high usage people. It's disgusting that these companies want to have the advantages of subs, but then straight up ban any high usage people. Basically, there is no flatrate.

smashah 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

"It's against the Boot's TOS to remain unlicked"

postsantum 6 hours ago | parent [-]

I am ordering a tshirt with this

jama211 6 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

You think everyone is silly for finding this policy dumb?

gjsman-1000 6 hours ago | parent [-]

Yes; because they have no obligation to provide this service tier at all.

It could be API prices for anyone, everywhere. They offer a discounted plan, $200/mo., for a restricted set of use cases. Abuse that at your peril.

It’s like complaining your phone’s unlimited data plan is insufficient to run an apartment building with all units. I was told it was Unlimited! That means I can totally run 500 units through it if I want to, Verizon!

fruitworks 5 hours ago | parent | next [-]

You can run an entire apartment block off of a single sim card/phone line. The (technical) problem is that you are purchasing an insufficient amount of bandwidth. It goes without saying that a limited bandwidth integrated over a finite service period comes out to a limited amount of data, so the term is misleading.

If google has no obligation to provide the service tier, then they should stop providing it instead of providing it under false terms.

This is like if everyone in a city decided to take baths instead of showers, so the municpal water supply decided to ban baths instead of properly segmenting their service based on usage.

Service providers don't have the right to discriminate what their service is used for.

usef- 5 hours ago | parent | next [-]

I don't think that's an apt metaphor. You bought one general water supply, like an API user. If they sold a "no baths" cheaper option I'd be fine with them banning baths to those customers.

Google's API does let you use any client.

The gemini/antigravity clients are a different (subscription) service. When you reverse engineer the clients and use their internal auth/apis you will typically have very different access patterns to other clients (eg: not using prompt caching), and this is likely showing up in their metrics.

This isn't unusual. A bottomless drink at a restaurant has restrictions: it's for you to drink, not to pass around to others at the table (unless they buy one too). You can't pour it into bottles to take large quantities home, etc. And it's priced accordingly: if sharing/bottling was allowed the price would have to increase.

apgwoz 4 hours ago | parent [-]

The irony of an ex-Google engineer coining Hyrum’s Law (https://www.hyrumslaw.com/)

fennecbutt 5 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Lmao no. You cannot use your common sim card for that. It's for an individual and they will cut your service and justifiably so, if they figure out that's what you're using it for.

If you buy a sim card built for that purpose sure, but then you'll be paying...biz prices!

This isn't really that hard to figure out people. So much outrage in comments on this. Self entitlement to the max from people who really haven't lifted a finger to stop the corporate overlords anyway.

apgwoz 4 hours ago | parent | next [-]

So, if I use my SIM card 16 hours a day, 7 days a week, Ill get banned? Doesn’t that seem absurd? The SIM card is enforcing one voice call at a time. If the apartment building has to wait in line to use it, what’s the difference?

If you deployed it in a way that did multiplexing such that multiple users could use it at once, then sure—-Business time. But otherwise…

fruitworks 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

I can do it pretty easily. The restriction in both cases is so easily overcome it is ridiculous to build your buisness model around it and disrespectful to the customer's intellect.

Aurornis 38 minutes ago | parent | next [-]

> it is ridiculous to build your buisness model around it and disrespectful to the customer's intellect

Many things in business are easy to defeat if you’re willing to break the rules. Enforcement is handled through audits, flagging suspicious activity, and investigations.

It’s ridiculous to think that because you can temporarily circumvent a restriction that the rules don’t apply.

I don’t agree with the excessive enforcement used, but there is a lot of tortured logic in this thread trying to argue that the contract terms shouldn’t apply to service usage because the customer doesn’t like the terms.

JumpCrisscross an hour ago | parent | prev [-]

> restriction in both cases is so easily overcome

We’re like one comment away from HN discovering that insurance fraud is both easy and punishable.

> disrespectful to the customer's intellect

Murder is easy. It’s not disrespectful to anyone’s intellect to then punish it.

jen20 5 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

It rather sounds like you are arguing for the acceptance of weasel words in marketing.

Unlimited means just that. Otherwise, there are limits, and the word “unlimited” does not apply.

oenton 2 hours ago | parent [-]

Precisely. In fact I remember a story similar to this, so I Googled "did Sprint get sued for using 'unlimited' in their marketing?" Lo and behold, yes, they did. And for good reason.

It would be an understatement to say I am ashamed to work in the same industry as many of the commenters here do--commenters who are completely ignorant of antitrust law and why it exists, or for whatever reason, are completely unconcerned with the absurd market power these mega conglomerates (ab)use.