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mw888 6 hours ago

There seems to be wild speculation about freedom of speech rights or hacking Signal.

The FBI simply joined groupchats and read them. This is trivial stuff.

glaugh 4 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Do you mean just technically trivial? I agree with that.

If you mean more broadly trivial, I see that quite differently. An administration that has repeatedly abused its power in order to intimidate and punish political opponents is opening an investigation into grassroots political opponents. That feels worth being concerned about.

4 hours ago | parent | next [-]
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thegreatpeter 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

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mjparrott 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

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giardini 3 hours ago | parent | next [-]

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giardini 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

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CursedSilicon 3 hours ago | parent [-]

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BurningFrog 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Seems like there are hundreds of people in those groups.

Can't be hard to get into for some skilled undercover cops. TV shows have shown me they do these things all the time!

GorbachevyChase 3 hours ago | parent | next [-]

They had already been outed by internet sleuths possibly, but not necessarily, informed by leaks from the police. The FBI is making a press release about an investigation only to save face because the criminal conspiracy is already common knowledge among those interested. In the universe of a competent FBI, which I think is ours, they already know who is in the network. They have well-publicized, patently unlawful dragnet signals intelligence collection capabilities. The targets are people who organize openly on Zoom and Discord, and broadcast volumes of their ideology on bumper stickers, Mastodon, and Blue-Twitter. So why does (if the press is to be believed) an authoritarian, fascist, ultra-right-wing regime allow them to operate? I feel like ICE is Floyd/BLM repeated as farce.

zahlman 7 minutes ago | parent [-]

> In the universe of a competent FBI, which I think is ours, they already know who is in the network.

Certainly they know the handles of those people, and what they've said and what documents they've exchanged.

Connecting Signal accounts to real-world identity... well, that's definitely the FBI's wheelhouse, but some might make it easier or harder than others.

But there are a few cases where even the Internet sleuths are pretty confident about identity.

> So why does (if the press is to be believed) an authoritarian, fascist, ultra-right-wing regime allow them to operate?

Rationality requires treating behaviour inconsistent with a quality as evidence against that quality.

themafia 5 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

It would help if they stopped holding demonstrations in front of facilities with huge amounts of facial recognition technology.

Protesting is not something you should do "casually."

Perceval 5 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Protesting is absolutely something you can and should be able to do casually and without having to protect your face/identity. It was enshrined in the First Amendment as a fundamental check on the federal government in order to recognize the natural right of a self-governing people to peaceably assemble and petition the government for a redress of grievances.

What is not something that should be gone casually – or really at all – is an attempt to engage in insurrection with black bloc or globalized intifada insurgency tactics to prevent the enforcement of law.

themafia 28 minutes ago | parent [-]

> Protesting is absolutely something you can and should be able to do casually

Then you are going to be identified and your conversations monitored. This is precisely the outcome the article is complaining about. I find that expectation absurd.

> of a self-governing people

This describes the majority not the individual.

> and petition the government

There is no expectation or statement that your anonymity will be protected. The entire idea of a "petition" immediately defies this.

> to prevent the enforcement of law.

How does "tracking ICE" _prevent_ the enforcement of the law? Your views on the first amendment suddenly became quite narrow.

eleventyseven 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Protesting is a fundamental human right and obligation. It is something that you should do as casually as you would voting, volunteering, and taking out the garbage: something you do from time to time when the moment demands it.

See also: https://enwp.org/Chilling_effect

themafia 25 minutes ago | parent [-]

> a fundamental human right

No. It's not. Governments are not natural. So you have no "fundamental" rights here.

> and obligation

No. It's not.

> It is something that you should do as casually as you would voting

I would say voting is _not_ something you should do casually.

> something you do from time to time when the moment demands it.

Then you should expect some consequences in your life. If you actually want to avoid those then put your casual demeanor down and get serious. Otherwise there's a decent chance you will make things worse and do nothing to solve your original problem.

> See also: https://enwp.org/Chilling_effect

We all know what a chilling effect is. You have no right to communicate on signal. This does not apply.

JumpCrisscross 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

> Protesting is not something you should do "casually”

Neither is violently undermining our Constitutional order.

These folks should be on notice that they will be prosecuted. If we played by Trump’s book, we’d charge them with treason and then let them appeal against the death penalty for the rest of their lives.

themafia 23 minutes ago | parent | next [-]

> Neither is violently undermining our Constitutional order.

Ah, the "ends justify the means" then? Is this something you want applied _against_ you? Seems reckless.

> These folks should be on notice that they will be prosecuted.

They will not.

> If we played by Trump’s book

Moral relativism will turn you into the thing you profess to hate.

> we’d charge them with treason and then let them appeal against the death penalty for the rest of their lives.

Words have actual meaning. We're clearly past that and just choosing words that match emotional states. If you don't want to fix anything and just want to demonstrate your frustrations then this will work. If you want something to change you stand no chance with this attitude.

I'm not choosing sides. I'm simply saying if you want to avoid FBI attention then take your heart off your sleeve and smarten up.

rbanffy 19 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> played by Trump’s book

I'm betting that's exactly what will happen - the FBI will single out some core organisers and let them serve as an example.

renewiltord 16 minutes ago | parent | prev [-]

Realistically, we now know that the Hunter Biden Pardon (preemptive) is available and the Capitol Riots Pardon (mass pardon) is available. Given that, it’s only optimal for an outgoing cynical Republican President to preemptively pardon his allies on the street.

RobRivera 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Yea, I just assume any easily joinable movement like this is a honeypot of sorts.

lukan a few seconds ago | parent | next [-]

Most people are not professional conspiracists and know how to handle secret meetings, communication etc.

But the more the whole thing shifts towards that, the closer civil war is.

In other words, if you think any easily joinable movement is a honeypot you already seem to think along the lines of resistance movement in a dictatorship. (If it is .. I will not judge, I am not in the US)

epistasis an hour ago | parent | prev [-]

Most of these groups are centered around a neighborhood, or a school, or a church. For anything school related, people are very suspicious of outsiders trying to join. Churches and neighborhood groups might be more open, I suspect, but still gotta get somebody who lives there or goes to the church to vouch for you.

But the worst case for an outsider joining is not very bad; they get to see what's going on, but the entire point of the endeavor is to bring everything to light and make everything more visible. And if an outsider joins and starts providing bad information or is a bad actor, typical moderation efforts are pretty easy.

trhway 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

>The FBI simply

i don't think an investigation by FBI has ever been "simply" to the subjects of such an investigation. And to show bang-for-the-buck the "simply reading chat" officers would have to bring at least some fish, i.e. federal charges, from such a reading expedition.

In general it sounds very familiar - any opposition is a crime of impeding and obstruction. Just like in Russia where any opposition is a crime of discreditation at best or even worse - a crime of extremism/terrorism/treason.

db48x 4 hours ago | parent [-]

Don’t be disingenuous. The people in these groups are coordinating for a specific reason: to follow federal agents around, harass them, and prevent them from doing their jobs. That’s textbook Obstruction of Justice. It is illegal to prevent an officer from doing their job.

These groups are also documented to have harassed people who are _not_ federal officers under the mistaken impression that they are. That’s just assault. Probably stalking too. Anyone who participates in these groups will be committing crimes, and should be prosecuted for it.

If you don’t like the job that an officer is doing then the right thing to do is to talk to your Congress–critter about changing the law. Keep in mind that ICE is executing a law that was passed in 1995 with bipartisan support in Congress and signed by Bill Clinton. No attempt has been made to modify that law in the last 30 years. If Democrats didn’t like it, they had several majorities during that time when they could have forced through changes. They didn’t even bother.

protocolture 3 hours ago | parent | next [-]

>The people in these groups are coordinating for a specific reason: to follow federal agents around, harass them, and prevent them from doing their jobs.

To observe them, and prevent them from committing crimes. Which if it isn't legal, is moral as all get out.

"Jobs" Nurmberg lol. Not an argument.

istjohn 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

These groups exist to observe and document the actions of federal agents and share that information with their communities. That is constitutionally protected activity.

Empact 3 hours ago | parent [-]

Their stated purpose and their actual function can be different, and speech that would otherwise be free can be illegal if involved in incitement, bribery, collusion, etc.

If I’m having a conversation with my friend, it’s free speech. If we’re plotting the overthrow of the government, it’s insurrection.

jakelazaroff 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> The people in these groups are coordinating for a specific reason: to follow federal agents around, harass them, and prevent them from doing their jobs. That’s textbook Obstruction of Justice. It is illegal to prevent an officer from doing their job.

If that's the case, then why has no one been prosecuted on those grounds?

zahlman 35 minutes ago | parent [-]

I would assume that, had Renee Good not been shot, and also not escaped the scene, she would have been. I would imagine that many of the other US citizens supposedly arrested "simply for exercising free speech rights" will be in due course, too.

defrost 32 minutes ago | parent [-]

She was fully within her legal rights, as has been pointed out many times by US civil rights lawyers including those that have successfully defended MAGA people deplatformed during the past administration.

Your "assumption" is simply incorrect.

zahlman 15 minutes ago | parent [-]

> She was fully within her legal rights

To park her SUV perpendicular to the road and refuse to move when there was a federal law enforcement activity underway in the area and federal LEO required her to move?

Do you consider that freedom of speech protects this inherently?

Could a counter-protester park his car perpendicular to the street in front of protesters trying to get to a rally, and claim that this is similarly protected? Let's stipulate that there's still a free lane that they can merge into.

> as has been pointed out many times by US civil rights lawyers

Cite one.

> including those that have successfully defended MAGA people deplatformed during the past administration.

If they were deplatformed, they would be the plaintiffs in any ensuing civil action, not defendants.

trhway 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

>Keep in mind that ICE is executing a law

What i saw on video is ICE executing 2 American citizens. The existing law already prohibits that, so what changes you're talking about?

db48x 2 hours ago | parent [-]

I am talking about 8 USC chapter 12 subsection II (<https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/8/chapter-12>). This is the law that defines how immigration works in the US, and how illegal aliens are removed. ICE is the Federal agency assigned to the task of locating and removing illegal aliens. Even if you don’t like that illegal aliens are being removed, it is illegal to try to prevent a federal agent from doing just that. Instead you should be trying to change the law so that the job doesn’t exist.

trhway 2 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Why change? I've just randomly clicked through, and it is a good law, for example :

(1) Right of counsel The alien shall have a right to be present at such hearing and to be represented by counsel. Any alien financially unable to obtain counsel shall be entitled to have counsel assigned to represent the alien. Such counsel shall be appointed by the judge pursuant to the plan for furnishing representation for any person financially unable to obtain adequate representation for the district in which the hearing is conducted, as provided for in section 3006A of title 18.

When you're saying that ICE is executing that law, are you saying that the guys sent to that Guatemala prison were afforded that right of counsel and were given a lawyer? Or anybody else in those mass deportations.

I also couldn't find in that law where it makes it legal to randomly catch dark skinned people on the street, including citizens.

epistasis 2 hours ago | parent | next [-]

There are two conceptions of law currently in the US. The first is what we see on TV, with lawyers and judges and law enforcement attempting, most often successfully, to apply a set of rules to everyone equally.

The second conception of law is what the federal government is doing now: oppression of opponents of the powerful, and protection of the powerful from any harm they cause to others.

We are currently in a battle to see which side wins. In many ways the struggle of the US, as it has become more free, is a struggle for the first conception to win over the second. When we had the Civil War, the first conception of law won. I hope it wins again.

zahlman 12 minutes ago | parent | prev [-]

The extraditions are of people who have already had a hearing and are subject to a final order of removal.

trhway a minute ago | parent [-]

That is just simply not true as was illustrated by many stories in the news. What final order of removal were for example the US citizens picked by ICE subject to?

8note 22 minutes ago | parent | prev [-]

which part of the immigration code lets ice agents kill citizens?

zahlman 20 minutes ago | parent [-]

Self-defense law, specifically as applies to LEO, which ICE are.

idle_zealot 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> to follow federal agents around, harass them, and prevent them from doing their jobs. That’s textbook Obstruction of Justice. It is illegal to prevent an officer from doing their job.

Filming officiers performing their jobs is not obstruction, even if it does make them uncomfortable. If it makes their jobs harder that's only because they know what they're doing is unpopular and don't want to be known to have done it.

> If you don’t like the job that an officer is doing then the right thing to do is to talk to your Congress–critter about changing the law. Keep in mind that ICE is executing a law that was passed in 1995 with bipartisan support in Congress and signed by Bill Clinton. No attempt has been made to modify that law in the last 30 years. If Democrats didn’t like it, they had several majorities during that time when they could have forced through changes. They didn’t even bother.

Yeah, there's a massive disconnect between politicians and their voters. This is pretty strong evidence of that disconnect. Even now Democrats refuse to support abolishing ICE, despite majority support among their constituency. Who are voters who want immigration reform supposed to cast their ballots for? There hasn't been such a candidate since ICE was created in the wake of 9/11. Conservatives got to let out their pent up frustration with an unresponsive government by electing Trump. Liberals have no such champion, only community organizing.

zahlman 21 minutes ago | parent | next [-]

> Filming officiers performing their jobs is not obstruction

This is irrelevant, because many people have been observed physically obstructing officers, whether or not they were filming at the time.

> If it makes their jobs harder

Have you heard the constant blowing of whistles in these videos? Did you know that protesters have organized the mass 3d-printing and distribution of these whistles (https://www.minnpost.com/metro/2025/12/not-just-a-toy-how-wh... ; https://www.startribune.com/whistle-symbol-ice-protest-minne... ; https://chicago.suntimes.com/immigration/2026/01/21/chicagoa...)? Can you imagine how this level of noise interferes with a job that involves verbal communication with both coworkers and civilians?

> Even now Democrats refuse to support abolishing ICE

I'm not mistaken in my understanding that Tim Walz is a Democrat, am I? The one making public speeches falsely claiming that ICE aren't LEO and encouraging "peaceful protest" without mentioning anything about obstruction of justice or resisting arrest?

And you're aware that the Signal groups in question are alleged to include Democratic state officials and a campaign advisor?

For that matter, exactly what do you mean by "abolishing ICE"? Should it not be replaced? Should immigration law not be enforced? Should the USA allow everyone to reside within its borders who wishes to do so, with no barriers to entry?

Empact 17 minutes ago | parent | prev [-]

This is an inaccurate description of what they are doing. For example Renee Good was actively blockading a street, by placing her car perpendicularly across it. Some may be engaged in observation, but that is not broadly the case, and organizationally, their apparent goal is to obstruct.

getlawgdon 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

[flagged]

trollbridge 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Or just got control of 1 person’s phone/account.

lynndotpy 5 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

More specifically, right-wing agitators joined the chats and posted screenshots online.