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| ▲ | alecbz 3 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | > Even this evidence of woodworking is largely unremarkable .... this find is most notable for its preservation. This somewhat contradicts the subheading, no? > The finding, along with the discovery of a 500,000-year-old hammer made of bone, indicates that our human ancestors were making tools even earlier than archaeologists thought. | | |
| ▲ | throwup238 an hour ago | parent [-] | | That subheading is complete nonsense and I can't think of a single charitable reading of that sentence that in any way makes sense. Archaeologists have known that our ancestors have been making tools for over a million years since the Acheulean industry was conclusively dated in the 1850s. It took half a century for archaeologists to figure that out after William Smith invented stratigraphy. Scientists didn't even know what an isotope was yet. The original paper's abstract is much more specific (ignore the Significance section, which is more editorializing): > Here, we present the earliest handheld wooden tools, identified from secure contexts at the site of Marathousa 1, Greece, dated to ca. 430 ka (MIS12). [1] Which is true. Before this the oldest handheld wooden tool with a secure context [2] was a thrusting spear from Germany dated ~400kYA [3]. The oldest evidence of woodworking is at least 1.5 million years old but we just don't have any surviving wooden tools from that period. [1] https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.2515479123 [2] This is a very important term of art in archaeology. It means that the artefact was excavated by a qualified team of archaeologists that painstakingly recorded every little detail of the excavation so that the dating can be validated using several different methods (carbon dating only works up to about 60k years) [3] https://humanorigins.si.edu/evidence/behavior/getting-food/o... |
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| ▲ | drakythe 9 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Well, today I learned something! Thanks for the information, I guess I know which rabbit hole I'm going down today. | | |
| ▲ | throwup238 9 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Just edited to add two paper citations for the phytoliths and microwear studies. Have fun! It’s a deep rabbit hole largely ignored by popsci publications so there’s lots to explore. | | |
| ▲ | niwtsol 7 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | As you seem knowledgeable of this topic and it is super interesting, any books you would recommend that gives a good broad overview of all of this? | | |
| ▲ | throwup238 7 hours ago | parent [-] | | I don’t read popsci but if you’re interested in a rigorous treatment I’d recommend The Human Career by Klein which has the broad overview and The Human Past edited by Scarre which is more of a textbook. I mostly just read the papers as they are published but I’ve heard good things about those two books (they’re on my reading list but I haven’t read enough to form an opinion) |
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| ▲ | drakythe 8 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Thanks! I'll add them to my reading list for today. Its going to be interesting, I can already tell. |
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| ▲ | wil421 6 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | To put it into perspective, we did not invent fire. | | |
| ▲ | Sharlin 6 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Well, nobody did, because fire was likely used for tens or hundreds of thousands of years before anyone figured out how to make fire on demand. | | | |
| ▲ | comprev 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | So who's the fire starter - the twisted fire starter? | | |
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| ▲ | OJFord 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | The submission's subheading seems to imply that there was a gap where homo* emerged but weren't using tools then though? I can't read the article or copy-paste it due to pay wall, but it says something along the lines of the find suggesting our human ancestors were using tools longer ago than we thought. | | |
| ▲ | bookofjoe 3 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | >I can't read the article or copy-paste it due to pay wall Try this: https://www.nytimes.com/2026/01/26/science/archaeology-neand... | |
| ▲ | ErroneousBosh 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Way back when I was in high school doing history (Money for Nothing was on heavy rotation on the radio and Bob from Stranger Things was still Mikey from the Goonies), our teacher explained that there was evidence of stone tools being used by early hominids, then nothing much except maybe fragments of rock that may have been used as hammers or axe heads, and then into an era where simple bronze tools emerged. What archeologists believed, she said, was that people went from "big chunk of rock" to "small delicate bit of rock tied with strips of animal hide to a stick" to "big chunk of metal", and the wood and animal hide had simply rotted away. There would be this whole lost chunk of technology. And she told us that would likely happen again, there would be a gap where our technology proved to be insufficiently durable to last throughout history. Unsurprisingly not everyone in the class thought this was likely, but I figured it was possible. Anyway, I could go on about the archeology of tech all night, but I've got to figure out how to get the photos off this Kodak DC25 camera card. Something about a DLL from the original installer that you wrap in a Linux library? Can't remember. | | |
| ▲ | eru 3 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | > And she told us that would likely happen again, there would be a gap where our technology proved to be insufficiently durable to last throughout history. Unsurprisingly not everyone in the class thought this was likely, but I figured it was possible. I heard that fear being muttered mostly about everything going digital and that's much harder for archaeologists to dig up than paper or stone tablets. However, that's all nonsense, of course: the stuff that people bother to write down is seldom all that interesting. Who cares about who was king or whatever? The real juicy bits are all in our garbage dumps, and we are producing garbage that'll last much longer than anything the ancients could muster. What with all our metal, glass, plastic etc. | |
| ▲ | anthk 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | EDIT: Use XSane for it, as if it were an scanner. Look up on how to edit the config files in /etc https://www.linuxquestions.org/questions/linux-hardware-18/k... |
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| ▲ | JumpCrisscross 7 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | > Tools predate homo sapiens (which emerged about 300 kYA) I’m going to use a charged word because Jane Goodall used it. Goodall asserted that humans and chimpanzees (and wolves) are unique among animals in that we have a genocidal tendency [1]. When a group attacks us (or has “land and resources” we want) we don’t just chase them off. We exterminate them. We expend great resources to track them down to ensure they cannot threaten us. One reading of pre-history is that we had a number of hominids that were fine sharing the world, and humans, who were not. (I’ve seen the uncanny valley hypothesised as a human response to non-human hominids, as well as other humans carrying transmissible disfiguring diseases.) [1] https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2010/06/does-... | | |
| ▲ | crazygringo 2 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | > unique among animals in that we have a genocidal tendency That's an unsupported generalization. The article describes "behaviors" that include "perhaps even genocide", and notes that wiping out populations exists in chimps and wolves too. So not unique, there's a "perhaps", and it's not a tendency. There's no evidence we have a "gene" for it or anything. In the vast, vast, vast majority of conflicts between two groups, we don't exterminate the "enemy". Otherwise, the human race would have gone extinct a long time ago. Wiping out entire populations is by far the exception, not the rule, of human societies. It happens, but the situations are notable precisely for their extremity, precisely because they're not the norm. | | |
| ▲ | to11mtm an hour ago | parent [-] | | We are far more subtle and targeted about it as a whole, possibly due to our social structures. As vapid as the movie (intentionally) is, "Mean Girls" does a really good break-down of things, and perhaps the main issue is that unlike some other animal groups, people don't always stop. | | |
| ▲ | crazygringo an hour ago | parent [-] | | No. We simply engage in cost-benefit analysis, because we have limited resources. Entirely wiping out an enemy population can be incredibly risky as they'll try to also wipe you out in response. It consumes enormous resources as people on your own side get killed, your resources get used up, etc. It weakens your group making you more vulnerable to attack from third parties. Most of the time, it's just bad strategy. You don't need to invent instincts or tendencies or claim something is more subtle or targeted when the vastly simpler explanation is just that it's all just cost-benefit. | | |
| ▲ | BurningFrog 16 minutes ago | parent [-] | | > Entirely wiping out an enemy population can be incredibly risky as they'll try to also wipe you out in response Which is why you either wipe out the whole population, or not at all. If you have the type of enemy that holds a grudge across generations, that is. Should be true for hominids. I have no theory for the wolves. | | |
| ▲ | crazygringo 8 minutes ago | parent [-] | | > Which is why you either wipe out the whole population, or not at all. Huh? Most of human history is battles here and there -- gain a little more land and stop, deter the enemy then stop, maybe conquer some people and rule them and extract some resources rather than kill them. Not total peace vs genocide. The idea of it being all-or-nothing is neither usually reality nor usually good strategy. |
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| ▲ | Incipient 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | >going to use a charged word I honestly have no clue what word you used was 'charged'. Considering any of those words charged makes me worry how far political correctness has gone! (I'm assuming, I suppose, politically charged?) | |
| ▲ | MarcelOlsz 7 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | The worst part of reading this thread is I know I won't be able to google image anything interesting related to "non-human hominids" :( Your comment was oddly depressing lol. Real "are we the baddies?" moment this morning. | | |
| ▲ | JumpCrisscross 7 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | > won't be able to google image anything interesting related to "non-human hominids" We were a large family [1]. > Real "are we the baddies?" moment We were animals. We acted in accordance with our natures. Wolves and chimpanzees aren’t baddies any more than bees or hyenas. Nature is brutal. Today, however, we are more than our natures. We have the capacity to criticize it when it arises in ways we disapprove of. In a certain sense, humans have a unique capacity to reduce suffering in a way without precedent in Earth’s natural history. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homo | | |
| ▲ | unfitted2545 6 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | That's kinda ridiculous to think we're not animals anymore, our nature is to use intellect for survival (and though we know we can reduce suffering further we choose not to). | | |
| ▲ | ncr100 6 hours ago | parent [-] | | It is a mind bender, yes. Your argument, written here and As far as I understand it at the moment, goes along with the other argument that everything is a simulation, or that everything that we do is preordained based upon physics. All mindbenders. I want to believe that I have the ability to make an educated decision when faced e.g. with impulses to suppress or oppress others, I do know that I can consider ramifications and benefits outside of those which directly impact me. So, perhaps it's better to say, we can be unanimal like rather than simply not animal, at all? What do you think? | | |
| ▲ | unfitted2545 2 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | I do believe in determinism. I see what you mean by being able to consider the worth of harming something for your own gain. But doesn't this apply to all animals? If a bear was hungry I'm sure they would happily eat you, but they would probably think twice if they weren't. Same for early humans, it's just we have our technologies (which our intellectual nature has enabled) now to prop us up and not have to really think about survival. The main thing I'm curious to hear your thoughts on is what are we if not animals? Gods? That's surely completely relative, like an anteater to an ant. | |
| ▲ | WalterBright an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | > everything is a simulation The "simulation" is indistinguishable from god. | |
| ▲ | pinnochio 6 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | > Your argument, written here and As far as I understand it at the moment, goes along with the other argument that everything is a simulation, What? This isn't a mindbender. You're just drawing lines. Edit: I slightly misread your comment as advocating that we're not animals. However, whether one describes us as not animals or able to be "unanimal like" is still a matter of drawing lines. |
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| ▲ | reactordev 7 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | As equal to their ability to cause it. It’s this dichotomy that makes us, human. We have the power of destruction, the power of criticism, the power of nurturing, and the power to advance. We are amazing animals. | | |
| ▲ | throwaway173738 6 hours ago | parent [-] | | You might say we have eaten the fruit of the tree of knowledge but not the tree of wisdom. So although we can act against our base nature we don’t always. | | |
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| ▲ | staplers 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | humans have a unique capacity to reduce suffering in a way
With low cost to our wellbeing as well. Which I think is the main point. Our advances in logistical transportation and food production allow us to be kinder and more plentiful than ever before. Unfortunately we see "instinctual" echoes of past strife seemingly arise from minor inconveniences (those ppl do something that annoys me). | |
| ▲ | rananajndjs 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | [dead] | |
| ▲ | pinnochio 5 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | > Today, however, we are more than our natures. This really depends on how you define nature. Attempts to delineate what is and is not nature tend to be motivated. |
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| ▲ | WarmWash 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Another way of looking at it is that humans (and apparently our close brethren) are tribal, don't give up fighting easily, and can generationally hold grudges. Invaders of days gone by knew that even the young kids would grow up to "avenge their people", so to avoid problems (violence/killing against their tribe) in 10-15 years, it's better to just totally erase the population. | |
| ▲ | WalterBright an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | > Real "are we the baddies?" moment this morning Humans have a well-earned nickname: "murder apes" | |
| ▲ | keybored 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Of course we are the baddies. That’s the narrative every time people need to defend terrible behavior lead by sociopaths: but that’s just human nature. Very practical fallback. |
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| ▲ | nomel 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | I think this is part of the reason humans are so stupid during any sort of divisions where "sides" emerge. To be able to do commit this genocide, you need a very ugly "switch" in your head that can make your actions justifiable/right. I think this switch is the same, emotional, unthinking one that makes some people so religion about teams sports, phone OS, political alignment, etc. Related, I think this is also the mechanism for how religion tends to stabilize societies/give them cohesion. Rather than having an eventual positive feedback loop of division, the division is placed between some type of "good" and "evil" rather than your neighbor. The "us vs them" division that switch craves is put on something more metaphysical (and sometimes a net benefit, like defining evil as behavior destructive to societies). | |
| ▲ | staplers 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Army ants do something similar as well. https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/ants-and-the-art-... | |
| ▲ | throwup238 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | > (and wolves) And lions. And banded mongooses. And meerkats. And ants. Lots and lots of ant species - they’re actually by far the worst, following colony pheromones to the end of the earth just to get a single ant. Ants that aren’t genocidal to their own species tend to be some of the worst invasive species (like Argentinian ant supercolonies). I love me some Jane Goodall as much as the next guy but that hypothesis is not taken seriously by primatologists and using the word “genocidal” in this context would get you laughed out of the room. Lethal intergroup aggression, coalitionary killing, and raiding are all different aspects of violent behavior in animals and hominins are far from unique in demonstrating them. | | |
| ▲ | adastra22 5 hours ago | parent [-] | | Agree with your this-is-not-unique-to-primates take. But why is genocidal not accurate? |
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| ▲ | jama211 7 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | It’s an interesting interpretation, but it’s sounds all very unsubstantiated. Speculation it seems to me. | | |
| ▲ | JumpCrisscross 6 hours ago | parent [-] | | > sounds all very unsubstantiated. Speculation it seems to me What part of the study strikes you as unsubstantiated? | | |
| ▲ | 6 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | [deleted] | |
| ▲ | rhelz 6 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Every part is unsubstantiated. For starters, for the vast majority of H. Sapiens existence on earth--from 300,000 years ago to about 45,000 years ago, we shared the world with 4 or 5 other hominids that we know about. (Neanderthal, Denisoven, H. Luzonensis, H. Floresiensis, and still perhaps a few H. Erectus, and no doubt even more we haven't found yet.) That's 250,000 years of coexistence. We know that we sheboinked with at least two other species, probably more, because we still carry their genes to this day. So much so that it couldn't have been just a sheboink or two; we sheboinked over extended periods of time, i.e. we formed families with Neanderthals and Denisovens. We have no evidence of warfare between the species. I.E. We have found no Neanderthal skull with an arrowhead in it, for example. Besides the fact that we are the only ones left, I don't see any substantiation at all. It is a mystery why they are not still here. But the last 50,000 years, since the end of the last Ice Age, has been very hard on human species, for some reason. We are the only humans left, what every got them might get us too if we let it. | | |
| ▲ | shakna 5 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | > We have no evidence of warfare between the species. Thats not correct. We have a neanderthal slain by spear, at a time and place where it was only carried by modern humans. [0] This isn't a singular event. We have a history on injuries consistent with war, on both sides. Yes, we "sheboinked". We also took women as prizes of war and raped them. As humanity has continued to do for most of their history. Sure, the story is probably more complex. Some tribes at war, others at trade. Some who intermingle, and others who raged. That's... Just history of a people. That's normal. But we absolutely have a history of war between the species. [0] https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S00472... | | | |
| ▲ | popalchemist 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Who says these were homosapien tools? |
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| ▲ | yieldcrv 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Given enough time of human survival, the only species left on this planet will be ones that are aesthetically pleasing to us Everything selectively bred due to environmental or artificial pressures to have big eyes, big heads, high vocal sounds, attributes of human babies It is very strange and an aberration amongst species, one being tolerating other beings because of their entertainment value and the joy they give from looking at them, but seems to be consistent and validate what's happened over eons of homo sapien propagation | | |
| ▲ | dpc050505 5 hours ago | parent [-] | | Animals being tasty is a trait we heavily select for. I don't think chickens have any of the traits you describe but they're certainly not at risk of extinction. |
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| ▲ | api 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Sometimes when I think about this it makes me wonder if we should take the dark forest hypothesis seriously (re: Fermi paradox). Not only are we the only species to reach this kind of technology but among humans the first group to reach space was the Nazis. Today the innovation in that area seems driven by militaristic states and by people who seem ideologically adjacent. In other words it’s driven by very aggressive territorial members of one of the most aggressive territorial species. We can’t generalize from one example of evolution, but if this is indicative of a common pattern then there might be some scary MFs out there. Our radio signals have been spreading for a while, so for all we know something is on its way to cleanse the universe of all forms of life that offend its god (or whatever its genocidal rationalizations is). If this is true then we die. There is zero chance of resisting something with the technology to travel the stars and perhaps a million years or more head start on us. It’d be like an Apache attack helicopter versus a termite mound. I had this thought when I saw the ideological turn (or mask removal) of certain people in the space industry. I found it metaphysically disturbing. Again… if there is other advanced life and if this is the pattern of how you evolve to become spacefaring, then we are doomed. | | |
| ▲ | WalterBright an hour ago | parent [-] | | > Today the innovation in that area seems driven by militaristic states and by people who seem ideologically adjacent. Today it's Musk driving space technology forward, and I don't see him acting militaristic. |
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| ▲ | Jzush 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | It’s so cool and strange to think we have examples of tools that literally predate humans. | |
| ▲ | thinkingtoilet 9 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | That's wild! Thanks for sharing. I didn't realize these things went so far back. So are you saying these were straight up non-human primates using tools? Or is this all traceable to our lineage? | | |
| ▲ | ryan_j_naughton 8 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | The first identified tools were 3.3 million years ago, which is before the homo genus emerges. Thus, those were either by Australopithecus afarensis or by a yet unidentified hominid species -- they were still very likely our ancestors (but technically TBD). Then around 2-2.5 million years ago you get the first homo species in the genus homo such as Homo habilis and they created the Oldowan tool culture. Both Australopithecus afarensis and Homo habilis are our ancestors -- however they are also the ancestors of other homo lines that diverged from us that we are not descendents of (which are now extinct). People often forget how widespread and varied the Homo genus was before all our cousin species went extinct (likely in part due to us).[1] Homo erectus colonized the entire old world very effectively 1.5 million years ago! [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homo#/media/File:The_hominin_f... | | |
| ▲ | zahlman 6 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | > The first identified tools were 3.3 million years ago I assume these are made of stone? What kind of tools? | | | |
| ▲ | mmooss 8 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Last I knew, the 3.3 mya evidence from the site Lomekwi 3 in Kenya was debatable, though a serious possibility, and the 2.58 mya evidence from the Olduvai Gorge in Tanzania was considered the sure thing. Also, more than primates use tools: Many corvids (crows, ravens, etc.) do, as do other animals. Look up New Caledonian Crows in particular. But don't take all this from HN commenters debating each other; find some authoritative sources. A recent review article in a scientific journal would be a great start. Google Scholar lets you search for review articles. | | |
| ▲ | bookofjoe 8 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Most recently (January 19, 2026): cows >Flexible use of a multi-purpose tool by a cow https://www.cell.com/current-biology/fulltext/S0960-9822(25)... | | | |
| ▲ | layer8 7 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | We are talking about tool manufacture here, however, not just about tool use. | | |
| ▲ | awesome_dude 7 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | That's a difficult distinction to make - at which point does tool selection differ from modification for use as a tool - any animal that strips the leaves off a twig in order to use it as a tool has manufactured the tool. | |
| ▲ | mmooss 5 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | The people of the Olduvan industry from 2.58 mya tools (the earliest accepted by consensus [0]) manufactured their tools - that's exactly what archaeologists are talking about. Chimps and New Caledonian Crows (and maybe some other animals) also manufacture their tools, at least sometimes, BTW. IIRC the crows strip sticks and bend them into hooks to grab at objects. Why would someone imply otherwise if they don't know? What are people trying to prove in this discussion? [0] There's strong evidence of 3.3 mya; see other comments. | | |
| ▲ | layer8 5 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Not sure what you are asking. My point was that animals using objects as tools is a different thing than the Oldowan stone tool manufacturing “industry”. I wasn’t saying that tool manufacture is exclusive to primates. However, pointing out mere tool use by non-primates is sort of beside the point of the TFA topic, IMO. | | |
| ▲ | mmooss 5 hours ago | parent [-] | | > My point was that animals using objects as tools is a different thing than the Oldowan stone tool manufacturing “industry”. Agreed, though the dividing line is tricky. (Your prior comment didn't say 95% of that; for example, it doesn't mention animals. Because the parent comments were focused on human ancestors, that's what I thought you were addressing.) |
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| ▲ | foxglacier 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | I think the whole interest in tool making is we're looking for clues to intelligence and tools are just one of the few things they left behind. It's much less satisfying to discover an animal's tool making is an instinctual behavior like burrowing animals making their own holes to sleep in, than that they worked it out using more generalized thinking. |
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| ▲ | thinkingtoilet 8 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | So cool! Thanks for the info. |
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| ▲ | adgjlsfhk1 8 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Even today there's plenty of non humans (and non-primate) tool use https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tool_use_by_non-humans. In terms of tools by homonins, there is a roughly ~3million year history of stone tool use by various species, and the main thing preventing that date from being pushed further back is the difficulty in discerning between stones that have been shaped intentionally and those shaped by natural forces. | |
| ▲ | throwup238 8 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Our last common ancestor with our closest non-human primates (Pan genus) diverged about 6-8 million years ago, so what constitutes “human” is murky and I don’t think archaeologists give the matter much thought. “Human” means homo sapiens, “archaic human” means a few subspecies like neanderthals up to about 600 kYA, and the rest are just “hominins”. We have both observational and archaeological evidence of tool use in chimpanzees, macaques, and capuchins so it’s a pretty widespread behavior. I think the archaeological evidence for monkeys only goes back about four thousand years but thats because we havent studied the issue as much in archaeology. |
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