| ▲ | antonymoose 7 hours ago |
| Why would anyone be opposed to the IRS catching tax cheats? This seems like such a bone-headed take. In any case it’s also historically illiterate, the IRS has long been used as a political weapon, infamously against “Tea Party” activists. |
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| ▲ | mekdoonggi 7 hours ago | parent | next [-] |
| "Why would anyone be opposed to deporting criminals" is verbatim what I've read from conservative commenters. That isn't the issue being discussed. This is illustrating that armed, masked goons as a political weapon is a pandora's box that will get turned against everyone, regardless of status. Some people just don't care about the violence in Minnesota because it isn't happening to them. |
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| ▲ | sowbug 4 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Almost every major US criminal constitutional rights case started with an actual criminal, or at least someone unsavory. Miranda was a rapist. Gideon of Gideon v. Wainwright was a burglar. Brady of Brady v. Maryland was a robber and possibly a murderer. These cases helped form the foundation of what due process actually means in the United States. But contemporary discussion surely included a lot of commentary like "Why would anyone be opposed to prosecuting murders, rapists, and violent criminals?" And that commentary was just as irrelevant then as it is now. It's not about whether the US deports criminals. It's about how we go about doing it. | |
| ▲ | sejje 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | [flagged] | | |
| ▲ | sowbug 3 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | In the US, the 8th Amendment prohibits cruel and unusual punishment, which courts have interpreted again and again as requiring that punishment be proportionate to the conduct. Weems v. United States (1910), for example, struck down a 15-year hard-labor sentence for a man who engaged in criminal fraud. Do you think Alex Pretti or Renee Good deserved 15 years of hard labor for disobeying ICE? How about just five years? Because what actually happened was they were executed on the spot. There is no FAFO exception in the US Constitution. | | |
| ▲ | sejje 3 hours ago | parent [-] | | Cruel and unusual punishment is about sentencing, after a trial. These folks didn't go through a trial. No, I don't think either person deserved fifteen years of hard labor, or five years. What actually happened is not that they were executed on the spot, no. | | |
| ▲ | sowbug 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | It's not a particularly strong argument that these agents didn't violate the 8th amendment because they violated the 6th amendment right to trial. |
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| ▲ | datsci_est_2015 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | We’re not sure what your point is. “Things of a similar nature have happened in the past” is not a particularly strong argument. > In every state of the US (and most countries), people disobeying law enforcement will die. If you want to live, you comply, and you fight in court. This is naked bootlicking. You only support it because you view it as “your team” or “your tribe” and do not feel threatened by it. Tables turn in time. Maybe you are not old or wise or well-read enough to recognize that. | | |
| ▲ | sejje 6 hours ago | parent [-] | | I don't view law enforcement as my team. But I do want the laws enforced. | | |
| ▲ | goatlover 4 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | ICE has been breaking a lot of laws in Minnesota and ignoring Constitutional rights. Neither of the shootings have been justified based on video evidence, and the administration has blatantly lied and engaged in covering for the agents involved so far. | | |
| ▲ | sejje 3 hours ago | parent [-] | | One of them was very justified. Pretti was a cluster like I said. I don't think he should have been shot, but it's going to be really hard to find anyone guilty. They're hands on with an armed person who is resisting them, and he is shot in the chaos. I personally believe the first shot was by the officer who drew, but was unintentional and I don't think he realized it was his own gun. The time from him being disarmed to the first shot was well under a second, wasn't it? Not enough time to send a memo to everyone about the current status of the armed opposition. |
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| ▲ | simoncion 6 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | > The violence in Minnesota--that is, law enforcement killing people who are not obeying them--is nothing new. Happens in every state every day. Sure, agreed. > ICE deporting people isn't new, either. Yeah, agreed. > What's new is the folks trying to stop federal agents from doing their jobs... Nah. Cops of all flavors have been lying (even under oath) about how they beat the shit out of (or assaulted with chemical weapons (or killed)) someone because "I was afraid for my life", "I was being obstructed during the discharge of my lawful duties", and similar for ages. That's nothing new. What is probably new is the scale of the deployments of killer cops. What's definitely new is the extent of the media coverage of the obviously-illegal-but-roughly-noone-will-be-punished actions of many of those cops. That these cops are injuring folks, stealing and breaking their property, kidnapping folks, and killing folks is one huge fucked-up thing. The other huge fucked-up thing is that approximately noone will ask "So, why aren't these cops immediately in jail awaiting trial? Why don't the courts think this is obviously illegal? What has gone wrong here?". Instead, this will generally be pinned on either the Trump Administration, or Trump personally... so once he's out of office, folks will go "Job's done!" and nothing will change to fix the underlying long-standing problem. [0] [0] Do carefully note: I'm absolutely not saying that the Trump Administration (or perhaps Trump, himself) is blameless. They absolutely are responsible for the flood of poorly-trained ICE officers who pretty clearly have orders to engage in domestic terrorism. I'm pointing out that these domestic terrorists absolutely should be immediately sent to jail for what they've done. Trump and the Trump Administration have pretty much nothing to do with the fact that USian cops can kidnap, brutalize, steal, and murder with almost complete impunity... that's a long-standing problem. |
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| ▲ | crawfordcomeaux 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Normalizing state-sanctioned extra-judicial murder along with a message of compliance? Maybe go find videos of where compliance got people killed because the fact is the slave catchers enjoy brutality and murder. | | |
| ▲ | sejje 6 hours ago | parent [-] | | I'm not normalizing it, it's already normalized. We have accepted this kind of policing forever. Nothing in Minnesota has changed the game, except masks maybe, since they're being doxxed. | | |
| ▲ | ModernMech 5 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | We have not accepted anything. Hence the protests. Maybe you have accepted it but you don’t speak for everyone. | | |
| ▲ | sejje 3 hours ago | parent [-] | | No, that's the thing. We accepted for a long time. Literally not one thing about any of this is new, except the politicians and reporters decided we need to focus on Minneapolis this month. The same thing has been going on the same way for decades. | | |
| ▲ | ModernMech 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | It not being new doesn't mean it's been accepted though. Acceptance implies consent. Protest (also not new) is evidence of non consent. |
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| ▲ | goatlover 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Not since George Floyd and certainly not with masks. |
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| ▲ | qeternity 6 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | > In every state of the US (and most countries), people disobeying law enforcement will die. If you want to live, you comply, and you fight in court. This is one of the worst takes I have ever seen, to the point that you must just be trolling. Disobeying law enforcement is not a death sentence. It is often not even illegal. Just because LEO shouts "I am giving you a lawful order" does not in fact make it a lawful order. And this certainly is not happening in most other countries. The desire to be part of the Trump Tribe has made people forget what actually made America great. | | |
| ▲ | sejje 6 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | If it's not a lawful order, you fight that in court. It's almost a free pass to get out of whatever you did. But what she was given was a lawful order. That's the one I'm talking about. I'm not a trump voter. | | |
| ▲ | mekdoonggi 6 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | How did you determine "what she was given was a lawful order" without a trial? | | |
| ▲ | sejje 6 hours ago | parent [-] | | Because I have at least a bare minimum understanding of what a lawful command is. Law enforcement can order you out of your vehicle, and you must comply. |
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| ▲ | UncleMeat 5 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Can you show me how specifically you fight it in court when the person abusing you is a federal officer? Bivens is basically dead. | | |
| ▲ | sejje 3 hours ago | parent [-] | | Well, you can see the alternative. Get shot in the street and get a lot of twitter posts. | | |
| ▲ | UncleMeat an hour ago | parent [-] | | If the claim is that you can fight it in court then I want to know how you'd do that. Because from where I sit there are mountains of procedural barriers to actually doing this. A lot of people assume that you can just get some remedy in court, but this is often not true. When an ICE agent shot and killed a kid their Bivens claim was still denied. "Just go to court to solve it is not serious. |
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| ▲ | crawfordcomeaux 6 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Enslavement, genocide, domination, and extraction made it great. For those who forgot. What we're watching is the collapse of such an unsustainable approach. |
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| ▲ | gadders 6 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Obama managed to deport more illegal immigrants than Trump. The difference is the local cities and states were working with ICE, rather than weaponising it to try and get a Democrat president. Obama even gave Tom Homan a medal for his work. | | |
| ▲ | seanmcdirmid 6 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | You forget that Obama wasn’t an idiot and did everything above board. Sanctuary cities existed back then, federal agents still enforced immigration rules just without Gestapo-like sh*t stirring. Trump wanted to provoke Minneapolis with aggressive highly visible tactics, and he got what he wanted. | | |
| ▲ | gadders 5 hours ago | parent [-] | | [flagged] | | |
| ▲ | seanmcdirmid 5 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | That is ridiculous, Republicans are sending in poorly trained masked federal agents "en masse" into liberal, being as rough and visible as possible. That is the very definition of sh*t stirring. This is just what MAGA wanted: to beat up and shoot some libs. | | |
| ▲ | gadders 5 hours ago | parent [-] | | No, they want to deport 8million illegals. They'd be more than happy if they self-deported tomorrow. | | |
| ▲ | Sohcahtoa82 4 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | If it was really about illegal immigrants, ICE wouldn't be raiding immigration hearings, nor would they be kidnapping legal immigrants. If it was about stopping violent criminals, they wouldn't raid restaurant kitchens and crop fields, where workers are trying to make an honest living for their family. It's nationalism and racism, full stop. | | |
| ▲ | dns_snek 3 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | You can't reason someone out of something they clearly didn't reason themselves into. If they cared about the truth and evidence they wouldn't be holding that opinion right now. | |
| ▲ | gadders 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | [flagged] |
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| ▲ | mbesto 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | There's also categorically a WAY easier way to implement this - which is to criminalize and enforce businesses who employ illegal immigrants. | | |
| ▲ | iugtmkbdfil834 21 minutes ago | parent [-] | | Amusingly, a lot of rank and file on both sides ( and center ) of the aisle would not mind at all. However, somehow the political will in the upper echelons is just not there. Somehow. |
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| ▲ | ModernMech 5 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | So you don’t think it has anything to do with the fact the federal government murdered two people in cold blood for all to see? | | |
| ▲ | gadders 5 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | [flagged] | | |
| ▲ | projektfu 3 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Funny, I thought ICE officers had blood on their hands. But I'm glad it's "the press" that's responsible and not the person pulling the trigger. | |
| ▲ | wewtyflakes 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Is this a joke? The people with literal blood on their hands have the blood on their hands. Stop deflecting. | |
| ▲ | tastyface 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | https://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/voices/2026/01/26/ice... "The despondent faces and screaming, wailing and pleading from these men, women and children in cells will forever haunt me. But perhaps more haunting still was the sound of agents nearby laughing." Yes, very not Nazi. And the press is not the reason people in Minneapolis are livid and putting their lives on the line, out in the freezing cold. Instead of getting angrier and angrier as "useful idiots" continue to do the same all across the country and in ever greater numbers, maybe take the chance to revisit your assumptions and pull yourself out of whatever dark propaganda pit you're in. | | |
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| ▲ | direwolf20 5 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | FWIW they were murdered in hot blood. A cold–blood murder is one where you plan the murder at home and execute it. A hot–blood murder is one where you kill someone because you are enraged in the moment, which is what happened here twice. |
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| ▲ | buellerbueller 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | The difference is that the Obama version was done with due process, i.e. constitutionally. |
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| ▲ | tock 7 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| > Why would anyone be opposed to the IRS catching tax cheats? This seems like such a bone-headed take. And ICE says they only go after illegals. |
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| ▲ | ceejayoz 7 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Speaking of historically illiterate... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IRS_targeting_controversy > Conservatives claimed that they were specifically targeted by the IRS, but an exhaustive report released by the Treasury Department's Inspector General in 2017 found that from 2004 to 2013, the IRS used both conservative and liberal keywords to choose targets for further scrutiny. |
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| ▲ | ndsipa_pomu 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| There's nothing wrong with catching tax cheats as long as due process is followed and the person's rights are not infringed. However, selective enforcement can be used as a weapon - never investigate people "on your side" and always investigate "enemies" even if there's no evidence of fraud. Another way to weaponise enforcement is to have a law that is almost never prosecuted and rarely followed (e.g. only using bare hands to eat chicken in Gainesville, Georgia), so then a law enforcement officer can threaten to prosecute for it unless the victim complies. |
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| ▲ | plorg 5 hours ago | parent [-] | | Another great way to do this would be to preemptively arrest your political enemies with a pretext of assumed fraud and use that as a fishing expedition. Then you could spread your retribution by trying to violently suppress anyone who got in your way and use that as a pretext to send in the army to raid some billionaires' compounds. |
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| ▲ | fwip 7 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| I feel like you can both want illegal aliens to get deported, but not approve of how ICE is executing protesters in the street, entering homes without warrants, and kidnapping people in unmarked vans. Similarly, you can think it would be good to catch tax fraud, but think that it should be handled without executing folks. |
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| ▲ | sejje 6 hours ago | parent [-] | | [flagged] | | |
| ▲ | mekdoonggi 6 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | If you genuinely believe that the Good incident was self-defense and doesn't even warrant a trial, you aren't capable the critical thinking necessary to participate in a lawful society. You are parrot of authority without autonomy. | | |
| ▲ | sejje 6 hours ago | parent [-] | | [flagged] | | |
| ▲ | ceejayoz 6 hours ago | parent [-] | | > He's already been stuck and dragged by a vehicle in a previous incident, so he's well aware it's a weapon, and he has good reason to fear it. That's one take. Another is that he needs serious remedial training as he's put himself in a stupidly risky spot in direct violation of ICE policies at least twice now. https://docs.house.gov/meetings/JU/JU00/20260108/118805/HMKP... "ICE officers are trained to never approach a vehicle from the front and instead to approach in a “tactical L” 90-degree angle to prevent injury or cross-fire, a senior Department of Homeland Security official told NBC News." | | |
| ▲ | sejje 5 hours ago | parent [-] | | [flagged] | | |
| ▲ | ceejayoz 5 hours ago | parent [-] | | Your take: "He's trained to do exactly what he did." Facts: He's actually trained not to do what he did (twice). | | |
| ▲ | sejje 3 hours ago | parent [-] | | That's not what you quoted when you called it my take. Now that you've got an actual take, I can respond: He was trained to respond to deadly force with deadly force. That's what I'm talking about, the shooting. It was by the book. Where he positions himself is about his own safety, nothing to do with whether he should pull the trigger or not. He won't be found liable or guilty of anything. | | |
| ▲ | ceejayoz 3 hours ago | parent [-] | | > He was trained to respond to deadly force with deadly force. We have plenty of footage of the Good shooting, including clear footage showing the tires pointed away from him. > Where he positions himself is about his own safety… He placed himself in a dangerous position, in direct contravention of ICE policy on the matter. At least twice! > He won't be found liable or guilty of anything. Sure, but that's not because he shouldn't be. |
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| ▲ | crawfordcomeaux 6 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | You aren't seeing them because you aren't looking for them. And you're making excuses for the ones you see. Go find them. Do searches. | | |
| ▲ | sejje 6 hours ago | parent [-] | | Sorry, just rattle off a couple names of ICE executions, and I'll go do research on them. | | |
| ▲ | crawfordcomeaux 6 hours ago | parent [-] | | Do your own research and find them. You'll need to search social media because they go unreported/under-reported if not white. | | |
| ▲ | sejje 6 hours ago | parent [-] | | [flagged] | | |
| ▲ | etchalon 5 hours ago | parent [-] | | You should probably update your search tool. | | |
| ▲ | sejje 3 hours ago | parent [-] | | You should probably make your argument with names. | | |
| ▲ | ceejayoz 3 hours ago | parent [-] | | V.M.L. https://www.politico.com/news/2025/04/25/us-citizen-deportat... > U.S. District Judge Terry Doughty, a Trump appointee, said the child — identified in court papers by the initials “V.M.L.” — appeared to have been released in Honduras earlier Friday, along with her Honduran-born mother and sister, who had been detained by immigration officials earlier in the week. > The judge on Friday scheduled a hearing for May 16, which he said was “in the interest of dispelling our strong suspicion that the Government just deported a U.S. citizen with no meaningful process.” |
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| ▲ | insane_dreamer 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| > infamously against “Tea Party” activists that claim was disproved by the way but, it is famously how the feds managed to get Al Capone |
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| ▲ | bena 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| No, they went after tax cheats and it wound up that there were a lot more people cheating taxes hiding behind conservative-sounding fronts than there were hiding behind liberal-sounding fronts. This was spun as "targeting conservatives". |
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| ▲ | ihsw 7 hours ago | parent | prev [-] |
| [dead] |
