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bearjaws 4 hours ago

There is something to be said about the state of advertising.

Increasingly it seems you must go to the almighty Google or Meta in order to launch any business.

We're looking to expand into a new business line and have out grown our pharmacy capacity.

The new business line will cost about $2M in software dev, and $3M for the new facility. The advertising budget? $40,000,000 (annual).

We can build 10 robotic pharmacies (~10 staff per 4000 fills daily, each) for the price of just the advertising.

Increasingly we wonder why America doesn't build more and here is why. You are going to give all your revenue to two platforms. Unless you operate in a business line with 50% margin you are screwed.

I don't know what the solution is, but its clear that the platforms are figuring out how much margin everyone has and slowly eroding it. Somewhere between 8-15% of the cost of all products we purchase is advertising spend.

csense 2 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Advertising spend being too high is a symptom of a supply glut. Too many products in the marketplace, not enough consumers to buy them.

In a different world where there are higher wages, more people would have more spending power. Then companies wouldn't have to spend as many dollars on advertising, which they could split between higher wages, higher margins and lower prices.

Alas, the short-term single-firm directional incentive for company decision makers in that world leads to marginal prioritization of higher margins. The loss of wages leads to loss of consumer spending power but it's spread across the economy. But every firm has the same incentive so they all do the same thing, and the good thing gets ruined.

This line of thinking leads to a Georgist-ish conclusion: The class conflict shouldn't be between workers and employers. They should be allies; the real cause of nobody being able to afford anything is rent extractors. (Writing in the 1800's, George [1] was most concerned about land rents; but the advertising monopoly of Google / Meta may be another form of extractive rent with similar characteristics.)

Maybe Henry Ford was on to something when he shocked the world by paying his employees enough to afford the product they were making (more than doubling many workers' wages)...

[1] https://www.astralcodexten.com/p/your-book-review-progress-a...

gruez 2 hours ago | parent | next [-]

>Maybe Henry Ford was on to something when he shocked the world by paying his employees enough to afford the product they were making (more than doubling many workers' wages)...

That's a nice story to tell, but the economics never works out if you do the math. Whatever extra wages you pay, you only get a fraction of that back in increased sales. How much percent of a worker's income do you think is spent on a car? As a rough measure we can use the BLS's CPI weights for "new and used vehicles", which comes in at 7.4%, with an extra 1.4% if you include maintenance and parts. By that alone "paying his employees enough to afford the product they were making" is going to be a losing proposition, because Ford can only hope to get 8.8% of whatever they paid in wages back as revenue. And all of this is ignoring the fact that you can't pay extra wages out of revenue, only profit, so you can only hope to recoup a fraction of that 8.8%.

RugnirViking a minute ago | parent | next [-]

thats an overly simplistic way to look at it. Of course you can never get more money from your employees purchases than you give them, that makes no sense. The point is using your market power as a large employer to raise market salaries. People will not want to work for your competitors or other sectors if they pay half what you do. So when you rise, naturally other salaries will rise too. And those other workers will also be buying cars.

Whether that makes sense economically is a difficult problem to quantify, especially over any fixed timeframe. I would guess not, but only a guess - and one restricted to the case of a single employer.

sdenton4 an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-]

It's a collective action problem. If everyone pays higher wages, there's a greater supply of money for buying stuff / solving problems (assuming the higher wages aren't eaten by rents). No individual form recoups all of the higher wages they pay their workers, obviously, but there's a larger market for the goods of everyone has more money.

gruez an hour ago | parent [-]

>If everyone pays higher wages, there's a greater supply of money for buying stuff / solving problems (assuming the higher wages aren't eaten by rents). No individual form recoups all of the higher wages they pay their workers, obviously, but there's a larger market for the goods of everyone has more money.

Does this actually work? Suppose you're on an island where the economy only produces coconuts. How does giving workers more coconuts make the economy grow, such that there's more coconuts to go around overall? Unless the workers were absolutely famished, giving them more coconuts isn't going to increase productivity. You might argue this model isn't representative of the real world, but that's approximately how the economy works. It can produce a certain amount of "stuff" (ie. coconuts), of which some portion can be given to workers, and the remainder can be given to the kings/elites/capitalists/whatever. Unless you improve productivity, there isn't going to be magically more stuff to go around.

Giving each worker a car can plausibly increase their productivity (less time spent commuting?) but the effect is small, and unlikely to be recouped by car companies. The situation looks even worse in the current economy. If everyone's paychecks were 10% bigger, what marginal item do you think it'll be spent on? A bigger car? A new iPhone or big screen TV? How would any of those increase productivity?

roughly 23 minutes ago | parent | next [-]

> Suppose you're on an island where the economy only produces coconuts.

This is why nobody takes economists seriously. What you lose in simplifying down to this model is literally everything. The coconut economy has zero predictive power.

In the real world, distribution effects dramatically affect the functioning of the economy, because workers are also consumers and owners of capital are siphoning off the purchasing power of their customers. Productivity isn’t the question in the modern economy - we’re already massively overproducing just about everything - our problem is both our wealth and production allocations are borderline suicidal.

gruez 14 minutes ago | parent [-]

>This is why nobody takes economists seriously. What you lose in simplifying down to this model is literally everything. The coconut economy has zero predictive power.

A simplified model is needed otherwise rigorous analysis becomes impossible, and people make handwavy arguments about how paying workers more means they can spend more, which means factories, and it's a perpetual growth machine!

>we’re already massively overproducing just about everything

No we're not. If we weren't, we shouldn't have seen the massive inflation near the end of covid. The supply disruptions hit almost immediately, but it wasn't until the stimmy checks hit that inflation went up.

>our problem is both our wealth and production allocations are borderline suicidal.

If you read my previous comments more carefully, you'd note that I'm not arguing against better wages for workers as a whole, only that contrary to what some people claim, they don't pay for themselves.

sdenton4 36 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-]

This is how we had a major boom in middle-class wealth int he US post WW2.

If you are only selling coconuts, a single raw material, yes, you will run into supply constraints such that prices go up. But that isn't how economics works. Your zero-sum economics example is only applicable in short-term scenarios: over the longer term, new industries develop to solve persistent problems that people are willing to pay to solve.

Money solves the problems of the people that have the problems. If the problem is 'we need to eat', producers will diversify into new food sources to meet the demand, solving the problem, and capturing the money of the people who have that problem.

There is an enormous space of problems people have which cannot be solved due to lack of access to money. Increasing costs in childcare, elder care, and education are good examples.

gruez 18 minutes ago | parent [-]

>This is how we had a major boom in middle-class wealth int he US post WW2.

The fact that Europe got bombed no doubt helped too, same with the elites being concerned that communism was on the rise and giving workers a better deal in an effort to stave that off.

>Your zero-sum economics example is only applicable in short-term scenarios: over the longer term, new industries develop to solve persistent problems that people are willing to pay to solve.

>Money solves the problems of the people that have the problems. If the problem is 'we need to eat', producers will diversify into new food sources to meet the demand, solving the problem, and capturing the money of the people who have that problem.

I'm not how you got the impression that I thought the economy had to be zero sum. I even specifically mentioned the possibility of more stuff to go around if productivity goes up. That's the problem with your "new industries develop" argument. Unless productivity goes up too, there will only be different stuff, not more stuff overall.

>There is an enormous space of problems people have which cannot be solved due to lack of access to money. Increasing costs in childcare, elder care, and education are good examples.

All of those are service industries that are resistant to scaling, and as a result productivity growth have been abysmal. Giving people more money to spend on those things just means productive capacity is removed from the economy elsewhere. Going back to the coconut economy example, it would certainly be nice if workers could have a maid to do the cleaning or a chef to do the cooking, but you still need people do the cleaning or cooking. At the end of the day you're just shuffling people around, not growing more coconuts.

tjr 31 minutes ago | parent | prev [-]

If the economy is 100% coconuts — all supply is coconuts, all demand is coconuts — then coconuts are all. Business owners sell coconuts in exchange for coconuts in order to acquire more coconuts. Employees are paid in coconuts which they trade for more coconuts. Paying workers more coconuts gives them more of what they want, which is coconuts, that they turn around and spend on coconuts.

gruez 27 minutes ago | parent [-]

That's exactly the problem. At the end of the day, unless you increase production of "stuff" (or coconuts), there isn't going to be magically more "stuff" (or coconuts) to go around just because people are shuffling "stuff" (or coconuts) around.

uoaei 19 minutes ago | parent [-]

I don't understand what compels you to continue down this line of thought when its obvious flaws have been so clearly elaborated by other commenters.

an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-]
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pphysch an hour ago | parent | prev [-]

The microeconomics of that decision are poor for the company, but the macroeconomics are great. But the macro angle has been reduced to "Fed interest rate" in America.

achierius 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> The class conflict shouldn't be between workers and employers.

Then why don't employers, the ones with essentially all the power here, tend to choose actions that go against the interests of the working class? Simple: regardless of what you think "should" happen, a study of history tells us what actually tends to happen in reality, and that tendency is towards class war between the ruling and exploited classes.

Anyways, in what way is "ownership" not rent-extracting in general? If you own shares of a stock and you get paid a dividend, that is rent plain and simple. All the arguments you can make against that being the case -- eg that you deserve a premium for parking your capital in a risky asset -- apply to advertising conglomerates and even literally renting out land too, so either they're all renting or none are.

servercobra 2 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Because employers don't tend to make choices about the "interests of the working class", they make choices about what benefits them specifically in the moment or near future. You need to get some sort of alignment on their interests and the interests of the working class to create change, whether that's via government intervention or otherwise.

And I hear you on ownership. It's "just" figuring out how to make that change.

gruez 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

>... so either they're all renting or none are.

The article in the parent comment specifically spells out why renting out land is different than say, "renting" out a car factory (or any other productive asset).

Herring 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> In a different world where there are higher wages, more people would have more spending power. Then companies wouldn't have to spend as many dollars on advertising, which they could split between higher wages, higher margins and lower prices.

Interesting hypothesis. I looked it up in Wilkinson and Pickett, The Spirit Level.

The authors provide cross-sectional data across 23 rich nations, showing a strong positive correlation (r~=0.70) between income inequality (Gini coefficient) and advertising expenditure as a percentage of GDP.

They attribute it to increased status competition & anxiety in more unequal societies, leading to pressure to consume more.

gruez an hour ago | parent [-]

>The authors provide cross-sectional data across 23 rich nations, showing a strong positive correlation (r~=0.70) between income inequality (Gini coefficient) and advertising expenditure as a percentage of GDP.

Why only rich nations? Many of the most unequal countries are also poor (or at least, not rich), so why do they get a pass?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Gini_Coefficient_of_Wealt...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:World_Bank_Inequality_202...

Herring an hour ago | parent [-]

Take a few quantitative courses (ie statistics). Roughly speaking, you usually want to compare similar-ish groups. It's like if you want to examine the effects of diet on a human body, you can't just mix old and young haphazardly. Advertising spend in Somalia probably works very different than advertising spend in Norway.

servercobra 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I'm not familiar with Georgism, but employers and rent extractors (e.g. the majority stock owners) seem to be one and the same pretty often, at least in the US.

awakeasleep 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I dont think you have to go georgist for that take, adam smith’s whole “free market” originally meant “free from economic rent”

metabagel 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Stronger unions would help bring wages up.

Aurornis 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> The new business line will cost about $2M in software dev, and $3M for the new facility. The advertising budget? $40,000,000 (annual).

The reason the advertising budget is such a high number and a recurring charge is that effective advertising returns an ROI on each dollar spent.

If the software budget was increased 10X to $20 million, would the company get 10X as many customers? No.

What about the facility? If you 10X the facility budget to $30 million would you get 10X as many customers? No.

However, advertising is a customer acquisition activity. Every dollar you spend on advertising provides additional customers. This is saturable, but the ceiling is very high. Much higher than spending on software or facilities.

The reason your ad budget isn’t so high isn’t because Google and Meta invented the discoverability and distribution problems or basic economics. It’s because it has been determined that acquiring new customers via advertising has a high ROI and therefore it’s a smart move to pour as much money as possible into customer acquisition.

If every $1 you spend on advertising produces $2 in customer LTV then your company should be maximizing ad spend until evidence of saturation starts appearing.

This commonly frustrates engineers who think it’s a wasted investment. The question is: Compared to what? If you could have the same number of customers and same amount of revenue without advertising then you should do that! However, you can’t. This isn’t a licensing fee that’s being paid. It’s putting money into a machine that returns more dollars back than you put into it.

WheatMillington 12 minutes ago | parent | next [-]

I had this exact epiphany when I ran a side business selling niche widgets. Every dollar I spent on Facebook ads returned me $5 in revenue (at 40% margin) and it wasn't obvious how much I could spend before that stopped being true.

_factor 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I doubt the ROI would be so high if organic results stood any chance.

The ROI on bribes is very high too, but we haven’t legalized those (officially).

Aurornis 2 hours ago | parent [-]

> I doubt the ROI would be so high if organic results stood any chance.

This is just the same fallacy. In what world are people going to organically share ads for this company on their Facebook feeds? Who is going to Google the company name before they know about it?

Every business needs to proactively acquire customers.

Distribution and CAC are top of mind values for any growth business. It has been this way long before Google and Meta existed. Digital advertising actually makes it cheaper and easier than ever to acquire customers at scale.

dwaltrip 2 hours ago | parent [-]

Information can travel without people paying for it do so.

Ban most ads and everything will still work fine.

gruez an hour ago | parent | next [-]

Sounds like ads will just get replaced with covert word of mouth enticements. Want to get people to know about your product? Send free samples to influencers. Maybe even fly them out to CES and put them in nice hotels so they can experience your product announcements/demos. All of this is "unpaid", of course.

fenwick67 an hour ago | parent [-]

this already happens

mjevans 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

I would prefer a world that returned to the older '30 second blip (for the only) sponsor of the program' ad, which also seemed to be of the limited form: Here's Product X, it does Y, which makes your life better because Z. Informative, dry, stated by an announcer in a calm and not demanding way.

pepinator 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

it surprises me how many people simply don't get the point. they say "they make more money this way, so it's ok". no big picture at all.

hansvm 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

That misses the point though. Google and Meta have designed systems which capture nearly the entire surplus. In a non-monopolistic environment you'd expect somebody to be willing to step in at a bit less than Google's rates and offer the same outcomes.

Aurornis 2 hours ago | parent [-]

The parent comment did a sneaky thing and gave the advertising budget then pivoted into rants about Google and Meta. They never actually said “All of this money goes to Google and Meta”. It was just expected that on HN everyone would assume as much because that’s what everyone is familiar with.

In the pharmaceutical industry, I can guarantee their advertising funnel is much wider than two social media platforms. Think about all the places you see pharmaceutical ads: TV, billboards, even ads on buses, that sketchy doctor’s office full of company swag. That $40 million is not going all to Google and Meta even if the GP comment tried to imply it was.

techpression 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

This is very correct, the only thing I as an engineer care about is that we rigorously optimize our spend to get the best possible CAC (Customer Acquisition Cost) It’s an incredibly hard problem and has many variables, that’s why the platforms charge what they do, they allow you to work with these variables in a somewhat approachable way.

tshaddox 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> I don't know what the solution is

Just spitballing, but how about a total ban on behavioral targeting?

analog31 3 hours ago | parent | next [-]

I'd go further, with a ban on possession of the data, with a provision for statutory damages.

badcryptobitch 2 hours ago | parent | next [-]

You can still derive a lot of info without having possession of the data through the use of PETs. There's a reason why companies like Google and Tik Tok make heavy use of PETs for their advertising products.

gruez an hour ago | parent [-]

"PETs"?

JamesTRexx 32 minutes ago | parent | next [-]

So that's how my CAT and DOG aquired their new shiny toys. They sold my info.

tartoran 34 minutes ago | parent | prev [-]

Yeah, I have no idea what this acronym stands for.

mwcz 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

An environment like that is where SOLID, or something like it, could thrive.

Teever 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

We could just start to enforce the laws as they're written.

If I was to follow a stranger as closely as an entitty like Facebook or Google does and compiled a dossier on that stranger in many countries that would be considered stalking and would be illegal.

Incorporating and doing the same thing to society en masse doesn't somehow make it legal despite it somehow makes people disinclined to prosecute.

analog31 3 hours ago | parent [-]

I think people are disinclined to prosecute because the odds are stacked against them.

I'm thinking of an analogy, and I've mentioned this before in other threads. The concept of statutory damages, as I'm thinking of it, is that a certain level of damages are automatically awarded. For instance this is used for figuring out damages when songs are copied illegally. It eliminates the need to construct a unique legal theory and case for each and every instance. In this case it benefits the record companies, which is of course controversial, but something like it could also benefit consumers.

If a company is found to possess your data, they automatically pay you X dollars, enough to make it a deterrent. You sign up with a law form that specializes in these cases, and they get a share of the damages.

usaphp 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Wouldn’t that increase the ad spend? You will need to show more ads to find your target audience

__MatrixMan__ 2 hours ago | parent [-]

This would predominantly affect businesses where that audience is not trying to find that business.

Which sort of businesses are those?

warkdarrior 2 hours ago | parent [-]

> This would predominantly affect businesses where that audience is not trying to find that business. > > Which sort of businesses are those?

Monopolies

nfw2 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

In order to sell anything, people need to know about it. Google and Meta provide a way to make this possible. If they didn't exist, you wouldn't somehow have a more affordable way to get people to know about your product. However frustrating the current situation is, it is still more accessible than needing access to the airwaves or print media to try to sell anything new.

anyonecancode 2 hours ago | parent | next [-]

> In order to sell anything, people need to know about it. Google and Meta provide a way to make this possible. If they didn't exist, you wouldn't somehow have a more affordable way to get people to know about your product. However frustrating the current situation is, it is still more accessible than needing access to the airwaves or print media to try to sell anything new.

The places people can find out about your product are controlled by a very small number of companies. And those companies not only own those spaces, they also own the means of advertising on those spaces. So if you have a product you want to advertise, you're not paying to distribute your message broadly to consumers, you're paying a toll to a gatekeeper that stands between you and your potential customers.

3rodents an hour ago | parent [-]

but that’s not really true. You’re not paying, you’re bidding. You are competing against thousands of other advertisers for eyeballs. If you are the only advertiser targeting a group of people, you will spend almost nothing to advertise. If you are targeting a group of people that everyone targets (e.g: rich people in their 30s) you will pay through the nose.

Facebook, Google etc. are the most “fair” forms of advertising. We can dislike advertising, their influence, product etc. but when you compare them to almost every other type of advertising, they’re the best for advertisers.

The reason they generate so much revenue is because they are so accessible and because they are so easy to account for. The reason LTV and CAC are so widely understood by businesses today is because of what Google, Facebook etc. offer.

pclmulqdq an hour ago | parent | next [-]

No financial market would be able to run the way Google and Facebook run their ad markets. They are the supplier, the exchange, and the broker all at the same time. This is not a competitive market. It's a captured one where the supplier effectively gets to set their price, and the exchange and the broker incentivize and advise you to trade at that price.

93po an hour ago | parent | prev [-]

Google has famously and repeatedly rigged this bidding system in anti-competitive ways and has had to pay billions in fines because of it (which I am sure were less than the amount they profited from)

bearjaws 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

That's generally my thought as well, I am not implying you don't need to advertise. I just believe the industry has more or less reverted to an even worse version of what we had before (TV & Radio ads). At least before, there was ~100 networks you could sell to, now there's basically 10 if you include major networks. Of course you don't actually launch new products with TV ads, so it is more or less 2 platforms.

anal_reactor 2 hours ago | parent [-]

The problem is that most businesses used to be local. This naturally limited competition and gave your business a chance, even if it sucked. Nowadays the competition is global.

parineum an hour ago | parent | next [-]

People don't really care to address that most of the mom and pop businesses that went out of business because Walmart/Amazon weren't offering better products or services. They got their products through the same retail suppliers, just at higher costs and the variety of choices was much lower. They also had much less generous return policies.

There's a personal touch that people opine for but I think that's rose colored glasses. I remember some local retailers where I liked the owners but more often they weren't anything special and sometimes they were downright unpleasant.

The thing I like about Amazon is that I can get my shopping done quickly at home then I can go socialize with people I choose to.

This is just an example if retail but I think it applies to most industries that people think have been decimated by big companies displacing local companies. The whole attitude reminds me a lot of the whole "Make America Great Again" idea. Opininig for a past that never really existed.

warkdarrior 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

This is good for consumers.

Y_Y 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

There are lots of ways to find out about products. We don't need Google or Meta to do look at a review site or ask a friend or search a directory or to solicit offers.

Adverising isn't there to push ideas into people who didn't need to know about it. Many industries would be better off without advertising (see e.g. cigarettes) because it ends up in an arms race.

beeflet 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

If google and meta didn't exist, it is possible that the advertising market could be more competitive, so the amount companies would need to spend would be lower.

gessha 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

“Your margin will soon be my margin.”

The solution was/is and most likely will be antitrust but which administration will shatter the US tech market we are yet to see.

Aurornis 2 hours ago | parent | next [-]

What would your hypothetical antitrust solution accomplish in this case? Can you be specific?

dexterdog 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Well, both are 100 pct in the pocket so the only possible answer is a third entity which is highly unlikely.

smt88 3 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Biden appointed Lina Khan. "Both parties are the same" is lazy and unhelpful.

somenameforme 2 hours ago | parent [-]

It's wiser to judge the parties by actions rather than rhetoric. From both parties there has been complete absence of meaningful action on the issue, even though both have regularly cycled through complete control of government with majorities in the house and senate while also holding the presidency.

somenameforme 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

I don't think it's outright corruption so much as quid quo pro. Think about PRISM and other such things. US tech companies operate globally, hoover up a vast amount of personal information, and pass it all right along to the US intelligence agencies.

So the more intrusive and vast these companies become, the more the US intelligence apparatus gains from it. Polls consistently there's extremely high levels of concern about what companies are doing what people's information, and we have a million 'real life' privacy laws. The complete absence of anything meaningful on the digital front, from either party, is highly conspicuous.

soared 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

This is kind of broken logic. You’re not required to advertise. If you want to scale your business into millions in revenue, then you’ll likely need to advertise. The best ROI is generally google/meta, but you have countless other options. You can buy ads directly from most websites, it just doesn’t scale.

phyzix5761 3 hours ago | parent | next [-]

The best ROI is google/meta if you're an expert and have unlimited time to dedicate to making and running ad campaigns. For the rest of us there's much better tools that give us better ROI than if we did it on our own.

bell-cot 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

> You're not required to advertise.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arms_race

If you are considering human society as a whole, it is a disastrously poor use of resources. But if you are an arms merchant (or dominant advertising platform), it is fabulously profitable.

notarobot123 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Doesn't this point more to a saturated market and the need to manufacture demand to keep growing?

crawshaw 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

That is very good framing for the problem with advertising today.

It also says that if you can find an audience to build a new ad platform, the incumbents have created enormous margin for the new platform.

AznHisoka an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-]

“ Increasingly we wonder why America doesn't build more and here is why.”

Building another advertising network isnt like building a factory or a bridge. Its not something money can magically make appear.

You need to build something that is either very very addicting to use or an universally useful online product like ChatGPT or a new search engine.

If it was that easy, capitalists would be building another new advertising network in droves

saurik 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Just to verify--as I truly do have a contempt for big tech oligopoly that extract rent from everyone to do anything at all, but am just unsure this specific problem is a ramification of such--are you sure you would not have had a large advertising budget pre-Google, or even pre-Internet? You used to pay to pay for limited space in newspapers and limited time on TV/radio stations, which also had high theoretical per-unit margins, or for a massive pile of physical mailers and door hangers, along with the cost of the delivery.

To the extent to which our current situation costs more, I'd think it might merely be because of increased worldwide competition: it used to be that the people trying to advertise to any specific random community were also likely local, and probably had a legit attempt at a business model... only, now, the rise of online companies funded by speculative venture capital means that an attempt to advertise a restaurant to people who live in a 10 mile radius must compete against a company that raised $400m to sell an online engagement platform that cares not one iota who uses it as long as the conversion cost is cheap, bidding up ads everywhere.

(One place that does seem to me to be uniquely the fault of these modern tech companies, though, is that if a newspaper published a scam ad, whether or not they had legal culpability, I think they and their surrounding community did at least strongly feel that they had some level of moral culpability. In the current tech environment, people seem to want to believe Meta/Google should be allowed to indiscriminately publish ads from bad actors, so you now must also compete to bid for limited attention with obvious-to-most-but-not-all scams and grifts that make money out of nothing but bullshit and are thereby willing to again bid up prices anywhere and everywhere.)

littlestymaar 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Advertising is a tax that goes to an oligopolistic cartel.

parineum an hour ago | parent [-]

I've never gotten $2 for $1 of tax I paid. At best I'm getting $1 of services back, usually much less.

littlestymaar 8 minutes ago | parent [-]

What “service” do you think you get from the ads you pay for?

cyanydeez 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Rent seeking is all Capitalism is about.

They call it a moat.

sooheon 3 hours ago | parent [-]

This is misuse of language. Rent seeking is anti-competitive by definition. The current system, as far as it encourages and rewards rent seeking, is anti-capitalist.

achierius 2 hours ago | parent | next [-]

If monopolies are "non capitalistic", then why has every capitalist economy in history had such a tendency towards creating large monopolies? The same cab certainly not be said any those economies producing, say, worker control of the means of production.

parineum an hour ago | parent [-]

Every economy tends towards monopoly because people like power and will corrupt and exploit any system to gain abd hold it.

That's a human problem.

malfist 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Anticompetitive behavior is completely within lines for capitalism. Survival of the fittest and efficient marketplace and all that.

Besides, what's the other option, rent seeking is socialism? A barter system?

cyanydeez an hour ago | parent | prev [-]

Just like communism practice is not communism in theory.

doctorpangloss 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Meta, TikTok and social media create the cultural celebration of thinness that makes it possible for you to sell 25mg semaglutide tablets to everyone. In my opinion, they deserve more than 50% of your margin: you didn’t invent the drug, the FDA is basically letting you break the exclusivity policy for no particularly good reason, and you didn’t create the audience.