Remix.run Logo
mdavid626 4 hours ago

I disagree that EV-s are held back by misconceptions. More their price and range.

MostlyStable 4 hours ago | parent | next [-]

I can do a ten hour road trip with a family of four plus a dog in a used (2022) EV that I got for ~30k last year. I think the idea that price and range are problems is exactly the misconception that op was taking about. They are somewhat more expensive, although when I originally did the calculus, fuel savings made up the difference in monthly payments for a new vehicle, but that's going to vary a lot. The is a very small proportion of people for whom range is a legitimate concern.

alistairSH 3 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Now do the range/time/stops calculation with a travel trailer.

Yes, if we're talking about normal family travel, an EV works fine for many trips (though there are still charging "dead spots" in parts of the country - looking at you WV).

But, "truck stuff" like towing, they aren't there yet. Maybe in a few years when we get the next generation of battery and charger tech.

Workaccount2 2 hours ago | parent [-]

In truth you cannot really do this because range is a function of drag, not really weight.

So if you are towing a 2000lb empty box mobile home it's gonna be worse than towing an 8000lb flat bed of decorative boulders.

mmmlinux 34 minutes ago | parent | next [-]

AgingWheels on youtube did a video testing exactly this.

alistairSH 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Yep. It takes a massive battery (and massive "normal" range) to pull off towing any distance. Unless I'm wrong, only the Chevy Silverado EV has the range (480ish) to make a reasonable tow vehicle, but only with the big battery, which pushes the price north of $90k.

IncreasePosts 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

I actually enjoy doing road trips in my tesla more so than in ICEs, because of the forced breaks. With ICEs, stops would be either for food or for bathroom breaks. A lot of times just eating in the car while driving. But for a 10 hour drive I am forced to take 4 20 minute stops - so once every 2 hours. This ends up making me feel a lot better at the end of the trip and also gives you "guilt free" time to enjoy a random park you've never been to, or sit down and have a meal. So, lets say 80 minutes of added time for a 10 hour trip, vs maybe 40 minutes that I would have added in my gas guzzler. 40 minutes extra on a 10 hour trip just isn't that big of a deal to me and especially so considering all the benefits from walking around for a bit or seeing some new places.

Obviously you could do that same thing in an ICE car, but I feel the pressure to keep moving so it hits different.

2 hours ago | parent | next [-]
[deleted]
alistairSH 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

For me, it's some intermediate trips where the EV really "fails" (though admittedly the gap closes every year and the use case below is basically a worst case scenario short of trying to tow trailer on the same route).

A common trip for me is DC -> Dolly Sods WV for camping. Less than 3 hours drive time each way, about 150 miles. I only need to stop for gas once during the trip and for only as long as the tank takes to fill (no meal needed).

In an EV, that ~6 hour round-trip takes about 9 hours due to 2 hours of charging and a 60 mile detour. That's using ABRP, with an Ioniq 5 from Reston VA to Dolly Sods Wilderness and back, no overnight charging because it's a wilderness location (gravel parking lot in the middle of nowhere).

mdavid626 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

How are you driving for 10 hours with only 80 min charging?

IncreasePosts 3 hours ago | parent [-]

I make sure to have 100% charge before I leave, and then I drive it down to 5-10% and hit up a super charger. The batteries charge the fastest from 0-50%(~15 mins), so I end up having about 60-70% charge by the time I'm heading out. Then I just repeat the process. I also arrive at my destination with 5-10%. I have a 2023 model Y for the record.

I also try to drive in a manner that is friendliest to the battery (ie I'm not accelerating a bunch to pass people or driving 90 mph), and almost all the driving is on a highway. But, that's how I naturally drive in my gas car as well.

I do ~Denver to ~Salt Lake City and back 2x/year through the Wyoming route and I've done it 6 times so far in a Tesla and 4 times in a gas SUV. I do it in the early/late summer so temperatures are warm, which I'm sure helps the mileage.

The tesla mapper site claims you can do it with only 35 mins charging, but I prefer the northern route, and my actual departure/destinations are about ~1hr more driving, but I'm sure that wouldn't add more than 45 minutes to the charging time: https://www.tesla.com/trips#/?v=LR_RWD_NV36&o=Denver,%20CO,%...

mdavid626 3 hours ago | parent [-]

That’s pretty cool!

How does cold weather affect this? What about when there is no supercharger (I live in Germany)?

Or driving faster, 160kmh/100mph in Germany is normal.

Workaccount2 2 hours ago | parent [-]

I recently did a road trip to Maine, and the whole week it didn't get above 15F. The difference in range was about 20% less. But I drive at 65mph with cruise control all the time.

ceejayoz 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

This calculation gets even better when you count “never have to go to a gas station except during long distance travel”.

Those minutes add up!

Uvix 2 hours ago | parent [-]

The minutes add up, but it only takes one long distance trip to burn months or years of gas station time saved.

ceejayoz 2 hours ago | parent [-]

Nah. EVs can often charge ~80% in 20-30 mins. Pumping gas takes me at least 5 mins. You win pretty quickly on this metric unless you do a lot of 200+ mile trips.

Workaccount2 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Range is the misconception, because people view range through the "sit and fill up then drive till empty" paradigm.

That is not how EVs work or how they should be used. They should be charged overnight/when you are doing something else, and on road trips should be charged to align with other stops even if those stops are 10 minutes. It's rare that I have ever done the "sit in the car for 40 minutes waiting for charge", and extremely common to do the "Put car on charger for 13 minutes while going into [insert any of the gazillion places with chargers in the parking lot] to use the bathroom, stretch legs, and get a snack, or see a landmark"

Also you usually structure it so you arrive at your destination with very low charge, because you fill up while there. I've yet to be at a hotel with a gas pump in the lot.

Again, EVs function differently than gas, and that change of paradigm really gets people ruffled up and confused.

ashtonbaker 3 hours ago | parent | next [-]

I actually leased a Kia EV6 recently without too much research into the charging situation, assuming that in 2025 it was probably pretty well figured out, and I could just do as you propose and just charge in small bursts at the grocery store etc. But:

- It didn't come with a home charger at all. They're not cheap.

- It came with a J1772 adapter, but no CCS adapter. The car itself has NACS. So I'm limited to Tesla superchargers, which are expensive, unless I buy a new adapter (not cheap, or cheap, but suspicious Temu brands).

- The experience of using all of these different branded charging points is _awful_. You need to create 10 different accounts with a bunch of terrible apps. The maps to find charging infrastructure seem universally awful.

- Pretty common to arrive at a charging location to find that some nutjob has hacked off all the charging cables. The only reliably maintained charge points are the larger, more expensive high speed charging locations.

I think a lot of the issues would be solved if I was more committed to the car and the house that I'm living in, and installed a home charger to charge at night. But the charging experience out in the world is absolutely _dismal_ when compared to gas vehicles, even if you change your behavior.

mdavid626 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

That’s exactly the problem. I’d be happy to use an EV daily, as I drive short distances. But when I drive longer, then I don’t want to waste hours on charging.

The other day I drove 700km in just about 5.5 hours (German Autobahn). Few stops to pee. With EV that would be few hours more (!). If this doesn’t bother you, then it’s fine. It matters to me though.

Sometimes I also drive early in the morning 600km, and in the afternoon back, so I’m home until 22:00. With EV, that’s just impossible.

plorkyeran 3 hours ago | parent | next [-]

As long as there's a fast charging station somewhere along the route you'd need more like 30 minutes to charge midway through, not multiple hours.

You also surely recognize that your driving patterns are very atypical and a car not working for them says very little about how suitable the car is for the market as a whole.

bluGill 2 hours ago | parent | next [-]

A fast charging station that is working, that has the correct connector for your car (including adapters you carry), that your car will work with (Tesla hasn't opened their superchargers to call cars with the NACS connector), that you have an account with... There are too many things that just are not there.

One top of that you need to find a charger. They are all over, but many of them are slow speed chargers. There are also a lot of gaps, if you pass a charger with 50% battery remaining you can't be sure you will make the next one. (most cars can pass several gas station with 5% gas in the tank and still make it to one). You need to ensure you will get back to your car when it is charged so they don't charge extra (this is a problem if you are at a concert or something and are trying to charge while doing something else that can't be interupted)

Someday all the above will be fixed. Everyone agrees NACS is the future connector, but it isn't rolled out. Someday every "gas station" will have a charger with the gas pumps (or perhaps something else?) - at least along routes where people often make long trips. Someday you won't need a phone/account, just swipe a card - or so I hope. But someday isn't today.

mdavid626 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Assuming car can charge that fast. This is why I said “price and range”.

Renault 5 EV charges with 11kW.

Workaccount2 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

In your typical 475km EV sedan, you would only need about 20 minutes of charging to do that 700km.

This is why I am like a broken record repeating that EV misconceptions kill EVs. You are applying gas car logic to electric cars, which is what people do, and stops them from getting an EV.

But it's wrong.

mdavid626 2 hours ago | parent [-]

Are you assuming 250kW chargers? …and cars which can charge that fast?

Renault 5 EV charges with 11kW. This is the size of car I need.

Workaccount2 2 hours ago | parent [-]

If you often mowed a town park, you wouldn't buy a hand-push lawnmower and then be upset about lawn mower technology.

The Renault 5 is a town car. Its specs are closer to a golf cart than a motorcar. It fills a niche, but if you are traveling often, a different EV would suite you better.

pixl97 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

The big problem here is we need a hybrid stage in between.

I have a hybrid now, it's still a conventional powertrain, and it's not chargeable. That's not exactly what I want, but it's what I could get.

I want a fully electric drive train hybrid with around 100 miles capacity on the battery, then a generator that's big enough to keep it running if the battery is drained.

100 miles gets you through the average day without having to use gas.

An electric drive train turns your engine to a generator that runs at a fixed speed and is more efficient. It also massively reduces the complexity turning into a system more like an EV.

And, if I go on a long trip, the car still gets me to where I'm going without charges (unless I choose to so I can save gas).

JohnMakin 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

> They should be charged overnight/when you are doing something else

This is fine if you're a homeowner. For a huge chunk of people living in denser housing, this is not feasible, and at best impractical.

nikcub 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Resale value is starting to ward some people off.

You can buy 1-2 year old used Teslas and BYD's in Australia for ~30% below retail.

Meanwhile Toyota hybrids not just retain their value but there have been moments where used RAV4's are listed above retail because the waitlist for new was so long.

legobmw99 6 minutes ago | parent | next [-]

The poor resale market for EVs just means that people who actually have some understanding of the battery lifespans can get very good deals on 1-2 year old cars

2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]
[deleted]
3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]
[deleted]
3 hours ago | parent | prev [-]
[deleted]
jsight 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Exactly, price is a huge problem. IIRC, the average selling price of F-150 is ~50k.

The extended range Lightning tended to be $60k and up. Sure, it had AWD, but lots of people didn't need that. The Cybertruck is even more expensive.

Both had huge preorders when they were announced at ~50k.

Workaccount2 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

A 600 mile trip can (theoretically) be done with 1 charge, because you leave home with full range, and arrive with 0 charge (and fill up overnight). That one charge is done while eating dinner, or spaced out in increments over the course of the trip, stops which you would take anyway. I know few people who want to bang out 10 hours without stopping for at least 1-2 hours over the course of the trip. And those who do, can be the edge case with gas cars.

So you need to go 600 miles, and you need 1 full charge worth of energy during that.

If that one charge takes 1 hour, you can also break it up into four 15 minute sessions at any time of your chosing.

I'm sorry, but almost no regular person does 10 hours without at least four 15 minute stops.

Range is not at all the problem people make it out to be.

bluGill 2 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Where can I find chargers on demand like that? There are a lot of slow chargers that won't give you much range in an hour. There are a few fast chargers that will, but they are much less common - enough to make the long trips possible but you need to stop where the fast charger is not where you are going to eat a meal or use a bathroom anyway. (gas stations are everywhere and so if you need a bathroom you can get gas at the same time)

mdavid626 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Which EV can go 600 miles with one charge, or with so little charging?

How much does that car cost?

Are you assuming, that every charger on the way is 200kW?

Kirby64 2 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Lucid Grand Touring can do it in one charge (that lasts ~45 minutes). Expensive, but it could do it.

I did Shreveport, LA to Pesos, TX as an example.

If you're OK with 2 charging stops, an Ioniq 6 or a Tesla Model 3 will work just fine.

Also, charging speed is irrelevant to how many stops you need. Most chargers are >150kW these days, though.

If you truly want to minimize charging stops, you'd be better served charging 3+ times for shorter periods of time, though.

Workaccount2 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

You can get Model 3 LR that will do it for $20k used.

Like everyone else, you are thinking in "gas car" trying to resolve an electric car problem.

You start every trip in an EV with full range (unplug from home base charger). You drive 300 miles. You full recharge. You drive another 300 miles. You plug-in and go to sleep.

600 miles. One charge. $20k EV.

ceejayoz 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Thanks for illustrating the point.

loeg 4 hours ago | parent [-]

They have worse prices (higher) and worse range (lower, particularly for towing). These aren't misconceptions. (My only car is an EV that I'm happy with. But lying about EVs doesn't benefit advocates.)

fullstop 3 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Obviously this is slanted by tax credits, but the EV that I have shares a name with the existing gas model and was less expensive.

EVs aren't for everything, but mine fits my use case perfectly.

ceejayoz 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> They have worse prices (higher)

Does this factor in cost of ownership? Gas, oil changes, less complexity?

> worse range (lower, particularly for towing)

Towing reduces a gas powered car’s range, too.

mdavid626 3 hours ago | parent [-]

(Towing) You can fill it up in 5 min.

Not true for EV.

ceejayoz an hour ago | parent [-]

Pop in for a pee and a snack. In the 15-20 mins that takes, you'll have a good amount of charge.

Towing is also a bit of an edge case.

https://www.thedrive.com/news/26907/you-dont-need-a-full-siz...

> According to Edwards’ data, 75 percent of truck owners use their truck for towing one time a year or less (meaning, never). Nearly 70 percent of truck owners go off-road one time a year or less. And a full 35 percent of truck owners use their truck for hauling—putting something in the bed, its ostensible raison d’être—once a year or less.

WorldMaker 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

They have artificially worse prices in the US where EVs are mostly only getting sold as "luxury" vehicles and competition is hobbled by dealer networks and dealer laws and import tariffs.

Most other parts of the world EVs are starting to be cheaper than the equivalent ICE in the same category.

Range often doesn't need to get better, the impression of range needs to change. That's where a lot of misconceptions play into effect, over-focusing on things like gas-station-like charging stations over at-home charging. Over-focusing on "zero to full tank/battery statistics" when no one keeps a gas vehicle with a full tank overnight every night. Over-focusing on high speed charging and ignoring boring but useful "Level 1" charging, which is "just about everywhere" because our society has been building electrical outlets for a long time. Sure, the experience changes in things like long distance trips, but experience changes aren't "worse" by default of being a change.

phainopepla2 3 hours ago | parent [-]

I still have to pay the price whether it's artificial or not