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| ▲ | mindslight 2 days ago | parent | next [-] | | > not wanting to fund criminal enterprises using the tax dollars of hard-working Americans? Please stick to the point and tell us - if this is your concern then why are you cheering on the large-scale openly criminal enterprise ? The total criminality and total cost of illegal (illegible!) immigrants is dwarfed by the current regime trashing our Constitution, trashing our economy, ballooning the debt, and trashing our standing as world leader, all to put our wealth in their own pockets. So please again, tell us, if this is really your actual concern why are you continuing to cheer support for the absolute worst offenders? Because they pointed at some outgroups and told you to distract yourself with them? Try having some self-respect. | | |
| ▲ | 15155 2 days ago | parent [-] | | Yawn. My concern goes far beyond monetary cost, given that political districts count illegal immigrants for purposes of representation (census) and that birthright citizenship exists. By encouraging illegal immigration ("sanctuary cities"), you can "buy" depressed wages for the portion of society in need of the most help, House seats, electoral votes, and voters at the expense of the nation's citizenry at large. | | |
| ▲ | mindslight 2 days ago | parent [-] | | You were narrowly driving focus on "tax dollars". I was referencing costs beyond the monetary - the corrosive effect on what had remained of the rule of law, and consequently on individual liberty. The fish rots from the head - you can't throw away these things while imagining such actions are necessary to save them. > political districts count illegal immigrants for purposes of representation (census) > you can "buy" depressed wages for portion of society in need of the most help, House seats, electoral votes Your first sentence implies that the problem is representation of such areas going up. Your second sentence implies that the problem is representation of such areas is going down. Which is it? Because really, it feels like this is the minimally-defensible remnant of the nonsense trope that illegible immigrants are voting - essentially handwaving implying "bad people" are responsible for creating our bad outcomes, rather than the reality that our political candidates are a race to the bottom and that our government has become wholly bought by corporate interests (open season under Trump). Reassigning a few House seats is rearranging deckchairs on the Titanic - we're going to be paying for this Trumpist tantrum for decades, assuming we can even right the ship afterwards. (also I will note that you have tacitly agreed that the current regime is a massive criminal enterprise stealing our "tax dollars" and accumulated national wealth) | | |
| ▲ | tech_ken 2 days ago | parent [-] | | I think you're making the mistake that any of their points are cogent or intended to function as proper arguments. It's just bullshit chaff to make you waste time, and provide a patina of legitimacy for the fact that they really just want the US to be an ethnostate and will adopt whatever policy stance is convenient to that end. Note how at the start they're complaining about tax-dollar spending, and then later in the thread they hit you with "My concern goes far beyond monetary cost, the problem is really [SOME_OTHER_BULLSHIT]". There's no consistency; it's just sound and fury, signifying nothing. | | |
| ▲ | mindslight 2 days ago | parent [-] | | I am aware of this. I just don't see what else to do. 1. I actually believe in many of these lofty ideals that are being dishonestly abused by the fascists. 2. Discussing things in terms of abstract ideals is a Schelling point that at least creates a chance for people from disparate tribes to find common ground. 3. There are other people reading along that might be swayed by the disingenuous chaff standing unquestioned. 4. I'd say it's going too far to write off most people spouting this nonsense as fully consciously aware of a contradictory agenda they keep hidden. I'd say it's more like they bought into feel-good nonsense posed as opposition to the blue head of the authoritarian hydra, and then basically haven't examined it too hard. And I'd say much of the opposition groupthink framed in terms of directly clashing overt values doesn't help either. So I think it's valuable to point out the glaring hypocrisy even if many of them have learned to revel in it. |
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| ▲ | bakies 2 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | not all foreigners are unskilled | | |
| ▲ | 15155 2 days ago | parent [-] | | How many engineers and doctors are wading across the Rio Grande? | | |
| ▲ | bakies 2 days ago | parent [-] | | How many of these supposedly "gang banger illegal immigrants" being detained by ICE are here legally and not criminals? | | |
| ▲ | 15155 2 days ago | parent [-] | | I don't really care, and this isn't a valid retort. Why should some be allowed to skip the line? If they are skilled, H-1B, O-1, etc. visas should be obtainable. There's no implicit right to migrate wherever one chooses regardless of the laws of that country, sorry! | | |
| ▲ | bakies 2 days ago | parent | next [-] | | Neither are any of your replies. Btw it's nearly. 70% are non-criminal and here legally. ICE's own data. | | |
| ▲ | 15155 2 days ago | parent [-] | | Criminality doesn't factor into my calculus at all: if you are here without status, you will be removed. Criminal removals should be expedited, no doubt, but even visa overstays should be met with prompt deportation. | | |
| ▲ | bakies 2 days ago | parent [-] | | they're here with status and going to concentration camps | | |
| ▲ | 15155 2 days ago | parent [-] | | A popular technique is to conflate illegal immigrants with legal ones for the benefit of argument. Removals of those with legal status should be corrected! I can simultaneously agree with you on this point and believe that all illegal immigrants should be removed! - this is actually the most fair and just solution to those who bothered to wait in line and follow the proper procedures! | | |
| ▲ | bakies 2 days ago | parent [-] | | > A popular technique is to conflate illegal immigrants with legal ones for the benefit of argument. Yes, I'm not. The Administration is. Removing people is cruel. I doubt most deserve it, in fact I know most don't. Deport the actual criminals, sure. That's not what is happening today. Ideally there is no "line." Proper procedures should be easy. If people are crossing the rivers and crawling through razor wire to get here then the policies make it too hard to enter the country. There's also a good excuse of being afraid of authority. So if they did cross the border improperly (not a criminal offense, btw), I would still like to hear them out and get them documented. Fine them, like the law says. | | |
| ▲ | 15155 2 days ago | parent [-] | | > If people are crossing the rivers and crawling through razor wire to get here then the policies make it too hard to enter the country This is an opinion. > not a criminal offense, btw https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/8/1325 You were saying? > Fine them The law also says "jail them" - let's just deport them and save the cash. | | |
| ▲ | bakies 2 days ago | parent [-] | | > Civil Penalty Traffic ticket makes you a criminal? Deport you for speeding? > The law also says "jail them" - let's just deport them How about we follow the law. You're the one that cared so much about lawbreakers. Stop being cruel. | | |
| ▲ | 15155 2 days ago | parent [-] | | > Traffic ticket Maybe read or ask an LLM to summarize part (a) for you? Civil penalties are in addition to the criminal ones - reading can be tough, I know. | | |
| ▲ | bakies a day ago | parent [-] | | why dont we just kill them instead of deporting them it's cheaper? since we dont care about laws |
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| ▲ | amanaplanacanal 2 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | The right to travel is a basic human right, whether any particular government recognizes it or not. People have been migrating to make a better life for themselves since humans have existed. Your ancestors did it, my ancestors did it. Good luck sweeping back the tide. | | |
| ▲ | 15155 2 days ago | parent [-] | | > Good luck sweeping back the tide. $170B should make a big dent! Southern border encounters are way down: I think it's working! | | |
| ▲ | goatlover 2 days ago | parent [-] | | And how much do you think illegal immigration is costing tax payers for medical care in comparison? | | |
| ▲ | amanaplanacanal 2 days ago | parent [-] | | Exactly, none. Illegal immigrants get no federal health care by law. | | |
| ▲ | bakies a day ago | parent [-] | | Dont bother, the user arguing doesnt care about laws, he cares about hurting immigrants for the sake that they're immigrants |
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