| ▲ | Fiveplus a day ago |
| Valve is practically singlehandedly dragging the Linux ecosystem forward in areas that nobody else wanted to touch. They needed Windows games to run on Linux so we got massive Proton/Wine advancements. They needed better display output for the deck and we got HDR and VRR support in wayland. They also needed smoother frame pacing and we got a scheduler that Zuck is now using to run data centers. Its funny to think that Meta's server efficiency is being improved because Valve paid Igalia to make Elden Ring stutter less on a portable Linux PC. This is the best kind of open source trickledown. |
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| ▲ | kshri24 a day ago | parent | next [-] |
| Game development is STILL a highly underrated field. Plenty of advancements/optimizations (both in software/hardware) can be directly traced back to game development. Hopefully, with RAM prices shooting up the way it is, we go back to keeping optimizations front and center and reduce all the bloat that has accumulated industry wide. |
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| ▲ | hinkley 18 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | A number of my tricks are stolen from game devs and applied to boring software. Most notably, resource budgets for each task. You can’t make a whole system fast if you’re spending 20% of your reasonable execution time on one moderately useful aspect of the overall operation. | |
| ▲ | ksec 11 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | I think one could even say gaming as a sector single handedly move most of the personal computing platform forward since 80s and 90s. Before that it was probably Military and cooperate. From DOS era, overclocking CPU to push benchmarks, DOOM, 3D Graphics API from 3DFx Glide to Direct X. Faster HDD for faster Gaming Load times. And for 10 - 15 years it was gaming that carried CUDA forward. | |
| ▲ | abustamam a day ago | parent | prev [-] | | Yes please! Stop making me download 100+gb patches! | | |
| ▲ | ffsm8 a day ago | parent [-] | | The large file sizes are not because of bloat per-se... It's a technique which supposedly helped at one point in time to reduce loading times, helldiver's being the most note-able example of removing this "optimization". However, this is by design - specifically as an optimization. Can't really be calling that boat in the parents context of inefficient resource usage | | |
| ▲ | flohofwoe 16 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | This was the the reason in Helldivers, other games have different reasons - like uncompressed audio (which IIRC was the reason for the CoD-install-size drama a couple of years back) - the underlying reason is always the same though, the dev team not caring about asset size (or more likely: they would like to take care of it but are drowned in higher priority tasks). | |
| ▲ | thanksgiving 21 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | We aren't talking about the initial downloads though. We are talking about updates. I am like 80% sure you should be able to send what changed without sending the whole game as if you were downloading it for the first time. | | |
| ▲ | SirAiedail 17 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Helldiver's engine does have that capability, where bundle patches only include modified files and markers for deleted files.
However, the problem with that, and likely the reason Arrowhead doesn't use it, is the lack of a process on the target device to stitch them together. Instead, patch files just sit next to the original file.
So the trade-off for smaller downloads is a continuously increasing size on disk. | |
| ▲ | ffsm8 20 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | from my understanding of the technique youre wrong despite being 80% sure ;) any changes to the code or textures will need the same preprocessing done. large patch size is basically 1% of changes + 99% all the preprocessed data for this optimization | | |
| ▲ | laggyluke 19 hours ago | parent [-] | | How about incorporating postprocessing into the update procedure instead of preprocessing? |
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| ▲ | thunderfork 8 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Generally "small patches" and "well-compressed assets" are on either end of a trade-off spectrum. More compression means large change amplification and less delta-friendly changes. More delta-friendly asset storage means storing assets in smaller units with less compression potential. In theory, you could have the devs ship unpacked assets, then make the Steam client be responsible for packing after install, unpacking pre-patch, and then repacking game assets post-patch, but this basically gets you the worst of all worlds in terms of actual wall clock time to patch, and it'd be heavily constraining for developers. |
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| ▲ | SkiFire13 18 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Do you have some resource for people outside this field to understand what it's about? | | |
| ▲ | baobun 17 hours ago | parent [-] | | It goes all the way back to tapes, was still important for CDs, and still thought relevant for HDDs. Basically you can get much better read performance if you can read everything sequentially and you want to avoid random access at all costs. So you can basically "hydrate" the loading patterns for each state, storing the bytes in order as they're loaded from the game. The only point it makes things slower is once, on download/install. Of course the whole excercise is pointless if the game is installed to an HDD only because of its bigger size and would otherwise be on an nvme ssd... And with still affordable 2TB nvme drives it doesn't make as much sense anymore. | | |
| ▲ | SkiFire13 7 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | So this basically leads to duplicating data for each state it's needed in? If that's the case I wonder why this isn't solvable by compressing the update download data (potentially with the knowledge of the data already installed, in case the update really only reshuffles it around) | |
| ▲ | tremon 14 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | It's also a valid consideration in the context of streaming games -- making sure that all resources for the first scene/chapter are downloaded first allows the player to begin playing while the rest of the resources are still downloading. | | |
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| ▲ | abustamam 10 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Interesting, today I learned! |
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| ▲ | MarleTangible a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Over time they're going to touch things that people were waiting for Microsoft to do for years. I don't have an example in mind at the moment, but it's a lot better to make the changes yourself than wait for OS or console manufacturer to take action. |
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| ▲ | asveikau a day ago | parent | next [-] | | I was at Microsoft during the Windows 8 cycle. I remember hearing about a kernel feature I found interesting. Then I found linux had it for a few years at the time. I think the reality is that Linux is ahead on a lot of kernel stuff. More experimentation is happening. | | |
| ▲ | mycall a day ago | parent | next [-] | | Linux is behind Windows wrt (Hybrid) Microkernel vs Monolith, which helps with having drivers and subsystems in user mode and support multiple personalities (Win32, POSIX, OS/2 and WSL subsystems). Linux can hot‑patch the kernel, but replacing core components is risky and drivers and filesystems cannot be restarted independently. | |
| ▲ | wmf a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | I was surprised to hear that Windows just added native NVMe which Linux has had for many years. I wonder if Azure has been paying the SCSI emulation tax this whole time. | | |
| ▲ | stackskipton a day ago | parent | next [-] | | Probably, most of stuff you see in Windows Server these days is backported from Azure improvements. | |
| ▲ | athoneycutt a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | It was always wild to me that their installer was just not able to detect an NVMe drive out of the box in certain situations. I saw it a few times with customers when I was doing support for a Linux company. | |
| ▲ | pantalaimon a day ago | parent | prev [-] | | Afaik Azure is mostly Linux | | |
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| ▲ | b00ty4breakfast a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | when the hood is open for anyone to tinker, lots of little weirdos get to indulge their ideas. Sometimes those are ideas are even good! | | |
| ▲ | ethbr1 a day ago | parent [-] | | Never underestimate the efficiency and amazing results of autistic focus. "Now that's curious..." | | |
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| ▲ | pjmlp 12 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | And behind in anything related to kernel security, sandboxing, user space drivers, and 3D graphics drivers. Without Proton there would be no "Linux" games. It would be great if Valve actually continued Loki Entertainment's work. | |
| ▲ | 7bit a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | And behind on a lot of stuff. The Microsoft's ACLs are nothing short of one of the best designed permission systems there are. On the surface, they are as simple as Linux UOG/rwx stuff if you want it to be, but you can really, REALLY dive into the technology and apply super specific permissions. | | |
| ▲ | nunez a day ago | parent | next [-] | | The file permission system on Windows allows for super granular permissions, yes; administrating those permissions was a massive pain, especially on Windows file servers. | |
| ▲ | torginus a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | And they work on everything. You can have a mutex, a window handle or a process protected by ACL. | |
| ▲ | jandrese a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | > The Microsoft's ACLs are nothing short of one of the best designed permission systems there are. You have a hardened Windows 11 system. A critical application was brought forward from a Windows 10 box but it failed, probably a permissions issue somewhere. Debug it and get it working. You can not try to pass this off to the vendor, it is on you to fix it. Go. | | |
| ▲ | fooker 21 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Is this a trick question, because you run it as administrator in a sandboxed account. | |
| ▲ | 7bit a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Procmon.exe. Give me 2 minutes. You make it sound like it's such a difficult thing to do. It literally will not take me more than 2 minutes to tell you exactly where the permission issue is and how to fix it. | | |
| ▲ | roblabla a day ago | parent [-] | | Procmon won't show you every type of resource access. Even when it does, it won't tell you which entity in the resource chain caused the issue. And then you get security product who have the fun idea of removing privileges when a program creates a handle (I'm not joking, that's a thing some products do). So when you open a file with write access, and then try to write to the file, you end up with permission errors durig the write (and not the open) and end up debugging for hours on end only to discover that some shitty security product is doing stupid stuff... Granted, thats not related to ACLs. But for every OK idea microsoft had, they have dozen of terrible ideas that make the whole system horrible. | | |
| ▲ | jandrese a day ago | parent | next [-] | | Especially when the permission issue is up the chain from the application. Sure it is allowed to access that subkey, but not the great great grandparent key. | |
| ▲ | lmz 12 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Shitty security products being inscrutable isn't limited to Windows. "Disable SELinux" anyone? | |
| ▲ | 7bit 17 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | At this point you're just arguing for the sake of bashing on Microsoft. You said it yourself, that's not related to ACL, so what are you doing, mate? This is not healthy foundation for a constructive discussion. |
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| ▲ | butlike a day ago | parent | prev [-] | | and why is it not on the vendor of the critical application? | | |
| ▲ | jandrese a day ago | parent [-] | | Because they aren't allowed on the system where it is installed, and also they don't deal with hardened systems. |
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| ▲ | Eggpants 7 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | And yet, it requires kernel extension anti-cheat to stop a game mod from reading and writing memory locations in a running process. It’s a toy operating system if it can’t even prevent that. It’s why corporate machines are so locked down. Then there is the fact video drivers run in ring 0 and are allowed to phone home… but hey you can prevent notepad++ from running FTW. | |
| ▲ | bbkane a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Do you have any favorite docs or blogs on these? Reading about one of the best designed permissions systems sounds like a fun way to spend an afternoon ;) | |
| ▲ | trueismywork a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | You have ACLs on linux too | | |
| ▲ | Arainach a day ago | parent | next [-] | | ACLs in Linux were tacked on later; not everything supports them properly. They were built into Windows NT from the start and are used consistently across kernel and userspace, making them far more useful in practice. Also, as far as I know Linux doesn't support DENY ACLs, which Windows does. | | |
| ▲ | onraglanroad a day ago | parent [-] | | Yes it does. | | |
| ▲ | 112233 a day ago | parent [-] | | since when? | | |
| ▲ | onraglanroad a day ago | parent [-] | | Since some of us could be bothered reading docs. Give it a try and see how it works out for you. | | |
| ▲ | 112233 a day ago | parent [-] | | Some of us can! I certainly enjoy doing it, and according to "man 5 acl" what you assert is completely false. Unless you have a particular commit or document from kernel.org you had in mind? | | |
| ▲ | opello a day ago | parent [-] | | > Each of these characters is replaced by the - character to denote that a permission is absent in the ACL entry. Wouldn't the o::--- default ACL, like mode o-rwx, deny others access in the way you're describing? | | |
| ▲ | 112233 18 hours ago | parent [-] | | See 6.2.1 of RFC8881, where NFSv4 ACLs are described. They are quite similar to Windows ACLs. Here is kernel dev telling they are against adding NFSv4 ACL implementation. The relevant RichAcls patch never got merged: https://lkml.org/lkml/2016/3/15/52 | | |
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| ▲ | a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | [deleted] | |
| ▲ | 112233 a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Haha, sure. Sorry, it's not you, it's the ACLs (and me nerves). Have you tried configuring NFSv4 ACLs on Linux? Because kernel devs are against supporting them, you either use some other OS or have all sorts of "fun". Also, not to be confused with all sorts of LSM based ACLs... Linux has ACLs in the most ridiculous way imaginable... | |
| ▲ | 7bit a day ago | parent | prev [-] | | Not by default.
Not as extensive as in Windows.
What's your point? |
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| ▲ | dabockster a day ago | parent | prev [-] | | Oh yeah for sure. Linux is amazing in a computer science sense, but it still can't beat Windows' vertically integrated registry/GPO based permissions system. Group/Local Policy especially, since it's effectively a zero coding required system. Ubuntu just recently got a way to automate its installer (recently being during covid). I think you can do the same on RHEL too. But that's largely it on Linux right now. If you need to admin 10,000+ computers, Windows is still the king. | | |
| ▲ | Elv13 a day ago | parent | next [-] | | Debian (and thus Ubuntu) has full support for automated installs since the 90's. It's built into `dpkg` since forever. That include saving or generating answer to install time questions, PXE deployment, ghosting, CloudInit and everything. Then stuff like Ansible/Puppet have been automating deployment for a long time too. They might have added yet another way of doing it, but full stack deployment automation has been there for as long as Ubuntu existed. | |
| ▲ | cactacea a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | > Ubuntu just recently got a way to automate its installer (recently being during covid). Preseed is not new at all: https://wiki.debian.org/DebianInstaller/Preseed RH has also had kickstart since basically forever now. I've been using both preseeds and kickstart professionally for over a decade. Maybe you're thinking of the graphical installer? | |
| ▲ | benterix a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | > Ubuntu just recently got a way to automate its installer (recently being during covid). I think you can do the same on RHEL too. But that's largely it on Linux right now. If you need to admin 10,000+ computers, Windows is still the king. What?! I was doing kickstart on Red Hat (want called Enterprise Linux back then) at my job 25 years ago, I believe we were using floppies for that. | | |
| ▲ | m4rtink a day ago | parent [-] | | Yeah, I have been working on the RHEL and Fedora installer since 2013 and already back then it had a long history almost lost to time - the git history goes all the way back to 1999 (the history was imported from CVS, as it predates Git) and that actually only cover the first graphical interface - it had automated installation support via kickstart and a text interface long before that, but the commit history has been apparently lost. And there seems to have been even some earlier distict installer before Anaconda, that likely also supported some sort of automated install. BTW, we managed to get the earlies history of the project written down here by one of the earliest contributors for anyone who might be interested: https://anaconda-installer.readthedocs.io/en/latest/intro.ht... As for how the automated installation on RHEL, Fedora and related distros works - it is indeed via kickstart: https://pykickstart.readthedocs.io/en/latest/ Note how some commands were introduced way back in the single digit Fedora/Fedora Core age - that was from about 2003 to 2008. Latest Fedora is Fedora 43. :) |
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| ▲ | LeSaucy a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Still the king but developing/testing/debugging group policy issues is a miserable experience. | | |
| ▲ | bigstrat2003 21 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | I disagree. Group policies are extremely straightforward to administer in my experience. | | |
| ▲ | UltraSane 15 hours ago | parent [-] | | That depends on how fine grained your targeting rules are. They can get insane. |
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| ▲ | 7bit a day ago | parent | prev [-] | | I always found it straight forward. Never had an issue and I've implemented my fair share on thousands on devices and servers. | | |
| ▲ | lll-o-lll a day ago | parent [-] | | Not an implementer of group policy, more of a consumer. There are 2 things that I find extremely problematic about them in practice. - There does not seem to be a way to determine which machines in the fleet have successfully applied. If you need a policy to be active before doing deployment of something (via a different method), or things break, what do you do? - I’ve had far too many major incidents that were the result of unexpected interactions between group policy and production deployments. | | |
| ▲ | 7bit 17 hours ago | parent [-] | | That's not a problem with group policy. You're just complaining that GPO is not omnipotent. That's out of scope for group policies mate. You win, yeah yeah.... Bye |
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| ▲ | esseph a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | > Ubuntu just recently got a way to automate its installer (recently being during covid). I think you can do the same on RHEL too. But that's largely it on Linux right now. If you need to admin 10,000+ computers, Windows is still the king. 1. cloud-init support was in RHEL 7.2 which released November 19, 2015. A decade ago. 2. Checking on Ubuntu, it looks like it was supported in Ubuntu 18.04 LTS in April 2018. 3. For admining tens of thousands of servers, if you're in the RHEL ecosystem you use Satellite and it's ansible integration. That's also been going on for... about a decade. You don't need much integration though other than a host list of names and IPs. There are a lot of people on this list handling tens of thousands or hundreds of thousands of linux servers a day (probably a few in the millions). | |
| ▲ | max-privatevoid a day ago | parent | prev [-] | | I'm surprised no one has said NixOS yet. |
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| ▲ | IshKebab a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Yeah and Linux is waaay behind in other areas. Windows had a secure attention sequence (ctrl-alt-del to login) for several decades now. Linux still doesn't. | | |
| ▲ | roblabla a day ago | parent | next [-] | | Linux (well, more accurately, X11), has had a SAK for ages now, in the form of the CTRL+ALT+BACKSPACE that immediately kills X11, booting you back to the login screen. I personally doubt SAK/SAS is a good security measure anyways. If you've got untrusted programs running on your machine, you're probably already pwn'd. | | |
| ▲ | eqvinox a day ago | parent | next [-] | | That's not a SAK, you can disable it with setxkbmap. A SAK is on purpose impossible to disable, and it exists on Linux: Alt+SysRq+K. Unfortunately it doesn't take any display server into consideration, both X11 and Wayland will just get killed. | | |
| ▲ | roblabla a day ago | parent [-] | | There are many a ways to disable CTRL+ALT+DEL on windows too, from registry tricks to group policy options. Overall, SAK seems to be a relic of the past that should be kept far away from any security consideration. | | |
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| ▲ | TeMPOraL a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | The "threat model" (if anyone even called it that) of applications back then was bugs resulting in unintended spin-locks, and the user not realizing they're critically short on RAM or disk space. | |
| ▲ | dangus a day ago | parent | prev [-] | | This setup came from the era of Windows running basically everything as administrator or something close to it. The whole windows ecosystem had us trained to right click on any Windows 9X/XP program that wasn’t working right and “run as administrator” to get it to work in Vista/7. |
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| ▲ | marcodiego a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Please check the relates wikipedia article. Updated to reflect recent secure attention key in the linux world: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secure_attention_key | |
| ▲ | ttctciyf a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Well, there is: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magic_SysRq_key | | |
| ▲ | IshKebab a day ago | parent [-] | | That's not the same thing at all. | | |
| ▲ | ttctciyf a day ago | parent | next [-] | | No, it's not. It has various functionality, as shown by the built-in help: > Example output of the SysRq+h command: > sysrq: HELP : loglevel(0-9) reboot(b) crash(c) terminate-all-tasks(e) memory-full-oom-kill(f) kill-all-tasks(i) thaw-filesystems(j) sak(k) show-backtrace-all-active-cpus(l) show-memory-usage(m) nice-all-RT-tasks(n) poweroff(o) show-registers(p) show-all-timers(q) unraw(r) sync(s) show-task-states(t) unmount(u) force-fb(v) show-blocked-tasks(w) dump-ftrace-buffer(z) dump-sched-ext(D) replay-kernel-logs(R) reset-sched-ext(S) But note "sak (k)". | | | |
| ▲ | eqvinox a day ago | parent | prev [-] | | Like the GP says in sibling, Alt+SysRq+K is SAK on Linux. But it doesn't work with graphical environments. |
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| ▲ | dangus a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Is that something Linux needs? I don’t really understand the benefit of it. | | |
| ▲ | ethbr1 a day ago | parent | next [-] | | The more powerful form is the UAC full privilege escalation dance that Win 7+(?) does, which is a surprisingly elegant UX solution. 1. Snapshot the desktop
2. Switch to a separate secure UI session
3. Display the snapshot in the background, greyed out, with the UAC prompt running in the current session and topmost
It avoids any chance of a user-space program faking or interacting with a UAC window.Clever way of dealing with the train wreck of legacy Windows user/program permissioning. | | |
| ▲ | thewebguyd a day ago | parent | next [-] | | One of the things Windows did right, IMO. I hate that elevation prompts on macOS and most linux desktops are indistinguishable from any other window. It's not just visual either. The secure desktop is in protected memory, and no other process can access it. Only NTAUTHORITY\System can initiate showing it and interact with it any way, no other process can. You can also configure it to require you to press CTRL+ALT+DEL on the UAC prompt to be able to interact with it and enter credentials as another safeguard against spoofing. I'm not even sure if Wayland supports doing something like that. | |
| ▲ | opello a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | My only experience with non-UAC endpoint privilege management was BeyondTrust and it seemed to try to do what UAC did but with a worse user experience. It looks like the Intune EPM offering also doesn't present as clear a delineation as UAC, which seems like a missed opportunity. | |
| ▲ | lawlessone a day ago | parent | prev [-] | | >Display the snapshot in the background, greyed out, Is there an offset. I could have sworn things always seemed offset to the side a little. |
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| ▲ | mikkupikku a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | It made a lot more sense in the bygone years of users casually downloading and running exe's to get more AIM "smilies", or putting in a floppy disk or CD and having the system autoexec whatever malware the last user of that disk had. It was the expected norm for everybody's computer to be an absolute mess. These days, things have gotten far more reasonable, and I think we can generally expect a linux desktop user to only run software from trusted sources. In this context, such a feature makes much less sense. | |
| ▲ | IshKebab a day ago | parent | prev [-] | | It's useful for shared spaces like schools, universities and internet cafes. The point is that without it you can display a fake login screen and gather people's passwords. I actually wrote a fake version of RMNet login when I was in school (before Windows added ctrl-alt-del to login). https://www.rmusergroup.net/rm-networks/ I got the teacher's password and then got scared and deleted all trace of it. |
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| ▲ | fleroviumna a day ago | parent | prev [-] | | [dead] |
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| ▲ | dijit a day ago | parent | prev [-] | | yeah, but you have IO Completion Ports… IO_Uring is still a pale imitation :( | | |
| ▲ | asveikau a day ago | parent | next [-] | | io_uring does more than IOCP. It's more like an asynchronous syscall interface that avoids the overhead of directly trapping into the kernel. This avoids some overheads IOCP cannot. I'm rusty on the details but the NT kernel has since introduced an imitation: https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/win32/api/ioringap... | |
| ▲ | loeg a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | IOCP is great and was ahead of Linux for decades, but io_uring is also great. It's a different model, not a poor copy. | | |
| ▲ | torginus a day ago | parent [-] | | I think they are a bit different - in the Windows kernel, all IO is asynchronous on the driver level, on Linux, it's not. io_uring didn't change that, it only got rid of the syscall overhead (which is still present on Windows), so in actuality they are two different technical solutions that affect different levels of the stack. In practice, Linux I/O is much faster, owing in part to the fact that Windows file I/O requires locking the file, while Linux does not. | | |
| ▲ | senderista a day ago | parent [-] | | io_uring makes synchronous syscalls async simply by offloading them to a pool of kernel threads, just like people have done for decades in userspace. | | |
| ▲ | layla5alive a day ago | parent [-] | | It's not the async part, it's the not invoking the function part - io_uring replaces syscalls with producer consumer ring buffers. |
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| ▲ | senderista a day ago | parent | prev [-] | | If that were true then presumably Microsoft wouldn't have ported it to Windows: https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/win32/api/ioringap... Although Windows registered network I/O (RIO) came before io_uring and for all I know might have been an inspiration: https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/previous-versions/windows/... | | |
| ▲ | dijit a day ago | parent [-] | | That argument holds no water. IOUring is essential for the performance of some modern POSIX programs. You can see shims for fork() to stop tanking performance so hard too. IOUring doesnt map at all onto IOCP, at least the windows subtitute for fork has “ZwCreateProcess“ to work from. IOUring had nothing. IOCP is much nicer from a dev point of view because your program can be signalled when a buffer has data on it but also with the information of how much data, everything else seems to fail at doing this properly. | | |
| ▲ | senderista a day ago | parent [-] | | The CQE for e.g. a successful read(2) operation will have the number of bytes read in the `res` field. |
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| ▲ | 6r17 a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Tbh i'm starting to think that I do not see microsoft being able to keep it's position in the OS market ; with steam doing all the hard work and having a great market to play with ; the vast distributions to choose from, and most importantly how easy it has become to create an operating system from scratch - they not only lost all possible appeal, they seem stuck on really weird fetichism with their taskbar and just didn't provide me any kind of reason to be excited about windows. Their research department rocks however so it's not a full bash on Microsoft at all - i just feel like they are focusing on other way more interesting stuff | | |
| ▲ | Arainach a day ago | parent | next [-] | | Kernel improvements are interesting to geeks and data centers, but open source is fundamentally incompatible with great user experience. Great UX requires a lot of work that is hard but not algorithmically challenging. It requires consistency and getting many stakeholders to buy in. It requires spending lots of time on things that will never be used by more than 10-20% of people. Windows got a proper graphics compositor (DWM) in 2006 and made it mandatory in 2012. macOS had one even earlier. Linux fought against Compiz and while Wayland feels inevitable vocal forces still complain about/argue against it. Linux has a dozen incompatible UI toolkits. Screen readers on Linux are a mess. High contrast is a mess. Setting font size in a way that most programs respect is a mess. Consistent keyboard shortcuts are a mess. I could go on, but these are problems that open source is not set up to solve. These are problems that are hard, annoying, not particularly fun. People generally only solve them when they are paid to, and often only when governments or large customers pass laws requiring the work to be done and threaten to not buy your product if you don't do it. But they are crucially important things to building a great, widely adopted experience. | | |
| ▲ | jraph a day ago | parent | next [-] | | Your comment gives the impression that you think open source software is only developed by unpaid hobbyists. This not true, this is quite an outdated view. Many things are worked on by developers paid full time.
And that people are mostly interested in algorithmically challenging stuff, which I don't think is the case. Accessibility does need improvement. It seems severely lacking. Although your link makes it look like it's not that bad actually, I would have expected worse. | |
| ▲ | einr a day ago | parent | prev [-] | | …and you are implying that Microsoft Windows 11 is a better example of ”great user experience”? | | |
| ▲ | Arainach a day ago | parent | next [-] | | If you have anything less than perfect vision and need any accessibility features, yes. If you have a High DPI screen, yes. In many important areas (window management, keyboard shortcuts, etc.), yes. Here's one top search result that goes into far more detail: https://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/1ed0j10/the_state_of... | |
| ▲ | thewebguyd a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | For the general user, yes absolutely. Linux DEs still can't match the accessibility features alone. yeah, there's layers and layers of progressively older UIs layered around the OS, but most of it makes sense, is laid out sanely, and is relatively consistent with other dialogs. macOS beats it, but its still better in a lot of ways over the big Linux DEs. | | |
| ▲ | m4rtink a day ago | parent [-] | | Start menu in the middle of the screen that takes a couple seconds to even load (because it is implemented in React horribly enought to be this slow) only to show adds next to everything is perfect user experience. Every other button triggering Copilots assures even better UX goodness. | | |
| ▲ | Klaster_1 18 hours ago | parent [-] | | You can move the menu to left and disable the animations so it opens instantly. |
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| ▲ | strtok a day ago | parent | prev [-] | | I prefer it. Linux desktop feels a lot more laggy to me on the same hardware. Of course that is minus all the recent AI/ad stuff on Windows… |
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| ▲ | embedding-shape a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | > Tbh i'm starting to think that I do not see microsoft being able to keep it's position in the OS market It's a big space. Traditionally, Microsoft has held both the multimedia, gaming and lots of professional segments, but with Valve doing a large push into the two first and Microsoft not even giving it a half-hearted try, it might just be that corporate computers continue using Microsoft, people's home media equipment is all Valve and hipsters (and others...) keep on using Apple. | | |
| ▲ | thewebguyd a day ago | parent | next [-] | | I think that's the most likely way it'll go. Windows will remain as the default "enterprise desktop." It'll effectively become just another piece of business software, like an ERP. Gamers, devs, enthusiasts will end up on Linux and/or SteamOS via Valve hardware, creatives and personal users that still use a computer instead of their phone or tablet will land in Apple land. | | |
| ▲ | m4rtink a day ago | parent [-] | | With the massive adoption of web apps in Enterprise I have seen I would expect Windows to become irelevant or even a liability in business use as well. | | |
| ▲ | embedding-shape a day ago | parent | next [-] | | Still, some sort of OS is required to run that browser that renders the websites, and some team needs to manage a fleet of those computers running that OS. And that's where Microsoft will sit, since they're unable to build good consumer products, they'll eventually start focusing exclusively on businesses and enterprises. | | |
| ▲ | m4rtink a day ago | parent [-] | | If you just need something that runs a browser, can't you do that with something like Chrome OS/MacOS/RHEL Workstation/whatever SUSE has for workstation users ? :) | | |
| ▲ | embedding-shape 15 hours ago | parent [-] | | Inertia, unless there is a really big reason why, big companies just go with what they have, for better or worse, even if it sucks or is expensive. |
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| ▲ | pjmlp 11 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | My employer only does either Windows or macOS, Linux place is on servers for us. |
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| ▲ | pjmlp 11 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Game developers still need Windows that Valve then runs on top of Proton. |
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| ▲ | pjmlp 12 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | First Valve has to actually start pushing for proper Linux games, until then Windows can keep enjoying its 70% market share, with game studios using Windows business as usual. Also Raspeberri PIs are the only GNU/Linux devices most people can find at retail stores. | |
| ▲ | m4rtink a day ago | parent | prev [-] | | Add to that all the bullshit they have been pushing on their customers lately:
* OS level adds * invasive AI integration * dropping support for 40% of their installed base (Windows 10) * forcing useless DRM/trusted computing hardware - TPM - as a requirement to install the new and objectively worse Windows version version, with even more spying and worse performance (Windows 11) With that I think their prospects are bleak & I have no idea who would install anything else than Steam OS or Bazzite in the future with this kind of Microsoft behavior. |
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| ▲ | benoau a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | "It just works" sleep and hibernate. "Slide left or right" CPU and GPU underclocking. | | |
| ▲ | dijit a day ago | parent | next [-] | | “it just works” sleep was working, at least on basically every laptop I had the last 10 years… until the new s2idle stuff that Microsoft and Intel have foisted on the world (to update your laptop while sleeping… I guess?) | | |
| ▲ | dabockster a day ago | parent | next [-] | | From what I read, it was a lot of the prosumer/gamer brands (MSI, Gigabyte, ASUS) implementing their part of sleep/hibernate badly on their motherboards. Which honestly lines up with my experience with them and other chips they use (in my case, USB controllers). Lots of RGB and maybe overclocking tech, but the cheapest power management and connectivity chips they can get (arguably what usually gets used the most by people). | | |
| ▲ | zargon a day ago | parent [-] | | Sleep brokenness is ecosystem-wide. My Thinkpad crashes/freezes during sleep 3 times a week. Lenovo serviced/replaced it 3 times to no avail. | | |
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| ▲ | QuiEgo a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Power management is a really hard problem. It's the stickiest of programming problems, a multi-threaded sequence where timing matters across threads (sometimes down to the ns). I'm convinced only devices that have hardware and software made by the same company (Apple, Andoid phones, Steam deck, maybe Surface laptops) have a shot in hell at getting it perfect. The long-tail/corner cases and testing is a nightmare. As an example, if you have a mac, run "ioreg -w0 -p IOPower" and see all the drivers that have to interact with each other to do power management. | |
| ▲ | chocochunks a day ago | parent | prev [-] | | It never really worked in games even with S3 sleep. The new connected standby stuff created new issues but sleeping a laptop while gaming was a roulette wheel. SteamOS and the like actually work, like maybe 1/100 times I've run into an issue. Windows was 50/50. |
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| ▲ | pmontra a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Sleep and hibernate don't just work on Windows unless Microsoft work with laptop and boards manufacturers to make Windows play nice with all those drivers. It's inevitable that it's hit and miss on any other OS that manufacturers don't care much about. Apple does nearly everything inside their walls, that's why it just works. | | |
| ▲ | Insanity a day ago | parent | next [-] | | “It just works” sadly isn’t true across the Apple Ecosystem anymore. Liquid Glass ruined multitasking UX on my iPad. :( Also my macbook (m4 pro) has random freezes where finder becomes entirely unresponsive. Not sure yet why this happens but thankfully it’s pretty rare. | |
| ▲ | pbh101 a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Regardless of how it must be implemented, if this is a desirable feature then this explanation isn’t an absolution of Linux but rather an indictment: its development model cannot consistently provide this product feature. (And same for Windows to the degree it is more inconsistent on Windows than Mac) | | |
| ▲ | AnthonyMouse a day ago | parent | next [-] | | > its development model cannot consistently provide this product feature. The real problem is that the hardware vendors aren't using its development model. To make this work you either need a) the hardware vendor to write good drivers/firmware, or b) the hardware vendor to publish the source code or sufficient documentation so that someone else can reasonably fix their bugs. The Linux model is the second one. Which isn't what's happening when a hardware vendor doesn't do either of them. But some of them are better than others, and it's the sort of thing you can look up before you buy something, so this is a situation where you can vote with your wallet. A lot of this is also the direct fault of Microsoft for pressuring hardware vendors to support "Modern Standby" instead of rather than in addition to S3 suspend, presumably because they're organizationally incapable of making Windows Update work efficiently so they need Modern Standby to paper over it by having it run when the laptop is "asleep" and then they can't have people noticing that S3 is more efficient. But Microsoft's current mission to get everyone to switch to Linux appears to be in full swing now, so we'll see if their efforts on that front manage to improve the situation over time. | |
| ▲ | pbh101 a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | I should have said ‘product development’ model versus just ‘development’ to be more clear. To state another way: Linux has no way, no function, no pathway to providing this. This is not really surprising, because it isn’t the work software developers find fun and self-rewarding, but rather more the relatively mundane business-as-usual scope of product managers and business development folks. … And that’s all fine, because this is a super niche need: effectively nobody needs Linux laptops and even fewer depend on sleep to work. If ‘Linux’ convinced itself it really really needed to solve this problem for whatever reason, it would do something that doesn’t look like its current development model, something outside that. Regardless, the net result in the world today is that Linux sleep doesn’t work in general. | |
| ▲ | spauldo a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | It's not the development model at fault here. It's the simple fact that Windows makes up nearly the entire user base for PCs. Companies make sure their hardware works with Windows, but many don't bother with Linux because it's such a tiny percentage of their sales. | | |
| ▲ | tharkun__ a day ago | parent [-] | | Except when it doesn't. I can't upgrade my Intel graphics drivers to any newer version than what came with the laptop or else my laptop will silently die while asleep. Internet is full of similar reports from other laptop and graphics manufacturers and none have any solutions that work. The only thing that reliably worked is to restore the original driver version. Doesn't matter if I use the WHQL version(s) or something else. |
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| ▲ | gf000 a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | The feature itself works. There are just hardware that is buggy and don't support it properly. That's a vastly different statement. | |
| ▲ | mschuster91 a day ago | parent | prev [-] | | > Regardless of how it must be implemented, if this is a desirable feature then this explanation isn’t an absolution of Linux but rather an indictment: its development model cannot consistently provide this product feature. The problem is: the specifications of ACPI are complex, Windows' behavior tends to be pretty much trash and most hardware tends to be trash too (AMD GPUs for example were infamous for not being resettable for years [1]), which means that BIOSes have to work around quirks on both the hardware and software. Usually, as soon as it is reasonably working with Windows (for a varying definition of "reasonably", that is), the ACPI code is shipped and that's it. Unfortunately, Linux follows standards (or at least, it tries to) and cannot fully emulate the numerous Windows quirks... and on top of that, GPUs tend to be hot piles of dung requiring proprietary blobs that make life even worse. [1] https://www.nicksherlock.com/2020/11/working-around-the-amd-... |
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| ▲ | ls612 a day ago | parent | prev [-] | | Sleep has always worked on my desktop with a random Asus board from the early 2020s with no issues aside from one Nvidia driver bug earlier this year (which was their fault not MS's). Am I just really lucky? |
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| ▲ | Krssst a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | On my Framework 13 AMD : Sleep just works on Fedora. Sleep is unreliable on Windows; if my fans are all running at full speed while running a game and I close the lid to begin sleeping, it will start sleeping and eventually wake up with all fans blaring. | |
| ▲ | devnullbrain a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | I don't understand this comment in this context. Both of these features work on my Steam Deck. Neither of them have worked on any Windows laptop my employers have foisted upon me. | |
| ▲ | tremon a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | That requires driver support. What you're seeing is Microsoft's hardware certification forcing device vendors to care about their products. You're right that this is lacking on Linux, but it's not a slight on the kernel itself. | |
| ▲ | seba_dos1 a day ago | parent | prev [-] | | Both of these have worked fine for the last 15 years or so on all my laptops. |
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| ▲ | packetlost a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Kernel level anti-cheat with trusted execution / signed kernels is probably a reasonable new frontier for online games, but it requires a certain level of adoption from game makers. | | |
| ▲ | dabockster a day ago | parent [-] | | This is a part of Secure Boot, which Linux people have raged against for a long time. Mostly because the main key signing authority was Microsoft. But here's my rub: no one else bothered to step up to be a key signer. Everyone has instead whined for 15 years and told people to disable Secure Boot and the loads of trusted compute tech that depends on it, instead of actually building and running the necessary infra for everyone to have a Secure Boot authority outside of big tech. Not even Red Hat/IBM even though they have the infra to do it. Secure Boot and signed kernels are proven tech. But the Linux world absolutely needs to pull their heads out of their butts on this. | | |
| ▲ | ndriscoll a day ago | parent | next [-] | | The goals of the people mandating Secure Boot are completely opposed to the goals of people who want to decide what software they run on the computer they own. Literally the entire point of remote attestation is to take that choice away from you (e.g. because they don't want you to choose to run cheating software). It's not a matter of "no one stepped up"; it's that Epic Games isn't going to trust my secure boot key for my kernel I built. The only thing Secure Boot provides is the ability for someone else to measure what I'm running and therefore the ability to tell me what I can run on the device I own (mostly likely leading to them demanding I run malware like like the adware/spyware bundled into Windows). I don't have a maid to protect against; such attacks are a completely non-serious argument for most people. | | |
| ▲ | cogman10 a day ago | parent [-] | | And all this came from big game makers turning their games into casinos. The reason they want everything locked down is money is on the line. | | |
| ▲ | jpalawaga a day ago | parent [-] | | anti-cheat far precedes the casinoification of modern games. nobody wants to play games that are full of bots. cheaters will destroy your game and value proposition. anti-cheat is essentially existential for studios/publishers that rely on multiplayer gaming. So yes, the second half of your statement is true. The first half--not so much. | | |
| ▲ | cogman10 a day ago | parent [-] | | > anti-cheat far precedes the casinoification of modern games. > nobody wants to play games that are full of bots. cheaters will destroy your game and value proposition. You are correct, but I think I did a bad job of communicating what I meant. It's true that anti-cheat has been around since forever. However, what's changed relatively recently is anti-cheat integrated into the kernel alongside requirements for signed kernels and secure boot. This dates back to 2012, right as games like Battlefield started introducing gambling mechanics into their games. There were certainly other games that had some gambly aspects to them, but 2010s is pretty close to where esports along with in game gambling was starting to bud. |
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| ▲ | codeflo a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | There are plenty of locked down computers in my life already. I don't need or want another system that only runs crap signed by someone, and it doesn't really matter whether that someone is Microsoft or Redhat. A computer is truly "general purpose" only if it will run exactly the executable code I choose to place there, and Secure Boot is designed to prevent that. | |
| ▲ | mhitza a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | I don't know overall in the ecosystem but Fedora has been working for me with secureboot enabled for a long time. Having the option to disable secureboot, was probably due to backlash at the time and antitrust concerns. Aside from providing protection "evil maid" attacks (right?) secureboot is in the interest of software companies. Just like platform "integrity" checks. | |
| ▲ | packetlost a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | I'm pro secure boot fwiw and have had it working on my of my Linux systems for awhile. | |
| ▲ | esseph a day ago | parent | prev [-] | | I'm not giving game ownership of my kernel, that's fucking insane. That will lead to nothing but other companies using the same tech to enforce other things, like the software you can run on your own stuff. No thanks. |
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| ▲ | mstank a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Valve... please do Github Actions next | | |
| ▲ | xmprt a day ago | parent [-] | | I wonder what Valve uses for source control (no pun intended) internally. | | |
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| ▲ | shantara a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | I’ve heard from several people who game on Windows that Gamescope side panel with OS-wide tweakables for overlays, performance, power, frame limiters and scaling is something that they miss after playing on Steam Deck. There are separate utilities for each, but not anything so simple and accessible as in Gamescope. | |
| ▲ | amlib a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | A good one is the shader pre caching with fossilize, microsoft is only now getting around it and it still pales in comparison to Valve's solution for Linux. | |
| ▲ | guidopallemans a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Surely a gaming handheld counts | |
| ▲ | theLiminator a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Imagine if windows moved to the linux kernel and then used wine/proton to serve their own userspace. | | |
| ▲ | m4rtink a day ago | parent | next [-] | | It kinda looked like this is the future, about at the same time they introduced WSL, released dotNET for Linux and started contributing to the Linux Kernel - all the while making the bank with Azure mostly thanks to running Linux workloads. But then they deCided it is better to show adds at OS level, rewrite OS UI as a web app, force harware DRM for their new OS version (TPM requirement) as well as automatically capturing content of you screen and feed it to AI. | |
| ▲ | layer8 a day ago | parent | prev [-] | | The Linux kernel and Windows userspace are not very well matched on a fundamental level. I’m not sure we should be looking forward to that, other than for running games and other insular apps. | | |
| ▲ | theLiminator a day ago | parent [-] | | Ah, I was being facetious, I think it would be pretty funny if it happened though. | | |
| ▲ | Apocryphon a day ago | parent [-] | | Sounds like the sort of oddball corporate experiment that Action Retro or Michael MJD would be examining in fifteen years. |
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| ▲ | duped a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | > I don't have an example in mind at the moment I do, MIDI 2.0. It's not because they're not doing it, just that they're doing it at a glacial pace compared to everyone else. They have reasons for this (a complete rewrite of the windows media services APIs and internals) but it's taken years and delays to do something that shipped on Linux over two years ago and on Apple more like 5 (although there were some protocol changes over that time). | |
| ▲ | a day ago | parent | prev [-] | | [deleted] |
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| ▲ | cosmic_cheese a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| One would've expected one of the many desktop-oriented distros (some with considerable funding, even) to have tackled these things already, but somehow desktop Linux has been stuck in the awkward midway of "it technically works, just learn to live with the rough edges" until finally Valve took initiative. Go figure. |
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| ▲ | johnny22 a day ago | parent | next [-] | | Please don't erase all the groundwork they've done over the years to make it possible for these later enhancements to happen. It wasn't like they were twiddling their thumbs this whole time! | | |
| ▲ | cosmic_cheese a day ago | parent [-] | | That's not my intention at all. It's just frustrating how little of it translates to impact that's readily felt by end users, including those of us without technical inclination. |
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| ▲ | rapind a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | It's not just Valve taking the initiative. It's mostly because Windows has become increasingly hostile and just plain horrible over the years. They'll be writing textbooks on how badly Microsoft screwed up their operating system. | | |
| ▲ | pwthornton a day ago | parent [-] | | I'm a Mac user, but I recently played around with a beefy laptop at work to see how games ran on it, and I was shocked at how bad and user-hostile Windows 11 is. I had previously used Windows 98, 2000, XP, Vista, and 7, but 11 is just so janky. It's feestoned with Co-pilot/AI jank, and seems to be filled with ads and spyware. If I didn't know better, I'd assume Windows was a free, ad-supported product. If I ever pick up a dedicated PC for gaming, it's going to be a Steam Machine and/or Steam Deck. Microsoft is basically lighting Xbox and Windows on fire to chase AI clanker slop. | | |
| ▲ | defrost a day ago | parent [-] | | In defence of Windows . . . (I've been a cross platform numerical developer in GIS and geophysics for decades) serious windows power users, current and former windows developers and engineers, swear by Chris Titus Tech's Windows Utility. It's an open powershell suite collaboration by hundreds maintained by an opinionated coordinater that allows easy installation of common tools, easy setting of update behaviours, easy tweaking of telemetry and AI addons, and easy creation of custom ISO installs and images for VM application (dedicated stripped down windows OS for games or a Qubes shard) https://github.com/ChrisTitusTech/winutil It's got a lot of help hover tooltip's to assist in choices and avoiding suprises, you can always look to the scripts that are run if you're suspicious. " Windows isn't that bad if you clean it out with a stiff enough broom " That said, I'm setting my grandkids up with Bazzite decks and forcing them to work in CLI's for a lot of things to get them used to seeing things under the hood. | | |
| ▲ | fylo 18 hours ago | parent [-] | | Bazzite is nice but its not very CLI centric I think because of the immutability. Its a great OS, but I found Cachy a lot better if you want to work from CLI in normal ways |
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| ▲ | WackyFighter a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | That isn't it. Generally whatever the majority of users tend to use that where the majority of focus goes. The vast majority of people that were using Linux on the desktop before 2015 were either hobbyists, developers or people that didn't want to run proprietary software for whatever reason. These people generally didn't care about a lot of fancy tech mentioned. So this stuff didn't get fixed. | | |
| ▲ | cosmic_cheese a day ago | parent [-] | | There’s some truth to that, but a lot of (maybe most) Linux desktop users are on laptops and yet there are many aspects of the Linux laptop experience that skew poor. I think the bigger problem is that commercial use cases suck much of the air out of the room, leaving little for end user desktop use cases. | | |
| ▲ | WackyFighter 7 hours ago | parent [-] | | What laptops though? Most people end up getting either Thinkpads, old Dell business laptop or something like a framework. Most people learn that using some crap top will leave you with stuff on the laptop not working e.g. volume buttons, wifi buttons etc. All of these just work with Linux. |
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| ▲ | iknowstuff a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | There's far more of that, starting with the lack of a stable ABI in gnu/linux distros. Eventually Valve or Google (with Android) are gonna swoop in with a user-friendly, targetable by devs OS that's actually a single platform | | |
| ▲ | thewebguyd a day ago | parent | next [-] | | The enterprise distros do provide that, somewhat. That's why, RHEL for example, has such a long support lifecycle. It's so you can develop software targeting RHEL specifically, and know you have a stable environment for 10+ years. RHEL sells a stable (as in unchanging) OS for x number of years to target. | | |
| ▲ | nineteen999 a day ago | parent [-] | | And if you want to follow the RHEL shaped bleeding edge you can develop on latest Fedora. I'll often do this, develop/package and Fedora and then build on RHEL as well. |
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| ▲ | cosmic_cheese a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | I don't have a whole lot of faith in Google, based on considerable experience with developing for Android. Put plainly, it's a mess, and even with improvements in recent years there's enough low-hanging fruit for improving its developer story that much of it has fallen off the tree and stands a foot thick on the ground. | | |
| ▲ | MarsIronPI a day ago | parent | next [-] | | Except that Android doesn't have a fixed ABI either. Google Play requires apps to rebuild targeting the latest Android ABI all the time. They have one year after each release to update or be removed. | |
| ▲ | api a day ago | parent | prev [-] | | Mobile in general is a disappointment. iOS is better but not great. It was a real chance to get a lot of things right that sucked on desktop, and that chance was mostly squandered. | | |
| ▲ | likeclockwork a day ago | parent | next [-] | | Mobile is completely hamstrung, all of the effort went into creating as much vendor lock-in as possible rather than into creating a useful pocket computer. There's all this cool tech on and adjacent to mobile that you can't actually use in any meaningful way because every aspect of it is someone's money patch and they don't want to work together. | |
| ▲ | cosmic_cheese a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | At least iOS made the deep and robust AppKit/Cocoa the foundation of its primary kit and then over the years made sensible QoL changes, resulting in something reasonably pleasant to write for. That, and it doesn’t fight you and make you jump through hoops if you’d rather use some flavor of C, C++, or something else LLVM can handle instead of a JVM-something. That goes a long way. | |
| ▲ | MarsIronPI a day ago | parent | prev [-] | | I'm absolutely not a normal user, but I love the experience on the Pinephone, because I can use the same stack as on desktop. |
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| ▲ | ninth_ant a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Ubuntu LTS is currently on track to be that. Both in the server and desktop space, in my personal experience it feels like a rising number of commercial apps are targeting that distro specifically. It’s not my distribution of choice, but it’s currently doing exactly what you suggest. | | |
| ▲ | mips_avatar a day ago | parent | next [-] | | I just installed Ubuntu again after a few years, and it’s striking how familiar the pain points are—especially around graphics. If Ubuntu LTS is positioning itself as the standard commercial Linux target, it has to clearly outperform Windows on fundamentals, not just ideology. Linux feels perpetually one breakthrough release away from actually displacing it. | |
| ▲ | cosmic_cheese a day ago | parent | prev [-] | | The problem with any LTS release is lack of support for newer hardware. Not as much of an issue for an enthusiast or sysadmin who's likely to be using well-supported hardware, but can be a huge one for a more typical end user hoping to run Linux on their recently purchased laptop. | | |
| ▲ | kristianp a day ago | parent [-] | | Is that true? I did just that on my newly purchsed laptop in 2023. It was a thinkpad though. | | |
| ▲ | cosmic_cheese a day ago | parent [-] | | That may have been from a generation that’d been out for many months or a year, or was built on a CPU and chipset that’d been out for quite some time already. The problem is that Linux can’t handle hardware it doesn’t have drivers for (or can only run it in an extremely basic mode), and LTS kernels only have drivers for hardware that existed prior to their release. |
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| ▲ | LeFantome a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Valve has been pretty clear that Win32 is the platform. | |
| ▲ | singron a day ago | parent | prev [-] | | Isn't that the steam linux runtime? Games linked against the runtime many years ago still run on modern distros. |
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| ▲ | LeFantome a day ago | parent | prev [-] | | What desktop Linux distro has “considerable funding”? | | |
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| ▲ | bilekas a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| I do agree. It's also thanks to gaming that the GPU industry was in such a good state to be consumed by AI now. Game development used to always be the frontier of software optimisation techniques and ingenious approaches to the constraints. |
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| ▲ | baq a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| I low key hope the current DDR5 prices push them to drag the Linux memory and swap management into the 21st century, too, because hard locking on low memory got old a while ago |
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| ▲ | the_pwner224 a day ago | parent | next [-] | | It takes a solid 45 seconds for me to enable zram (compressed RAM as swap) on a fresh Arch install. I know that doesn't solve the issue for 99% of people who don't even know what zram is / have no idea how to do it / are trying to do it for the first time, but it would be pretty easy for someone to enable that in a distro. I wouldn't be shocked if it is already enabled by default in Ubuntu or Fedora. | | |
| ▲ | m4rtink a day ago | parent | next [-] | | Zram has been enabled on Fedora by default since 2020: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Changes/SwapOnZRAM | |
| ▲ | MrDrMcCoy a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Zswap is arguably better. It confers most of the benefits of zram swap, plus being able to evict to non-RAM if cache becomes more important or if the situation is dire. The only times I use zram are when all I have to work with for storage is MMC, which is too slow and fragile to be written to unless absolutely necessary. | |
| ▲ | johnny22 a day ago | parent | prev [-] | | that just pushes away the problem ,it doesn't solve it. I still hit that limit when i ran a big compile while some other programs were using a lot of memory. |
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| ▲ | ahepp a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | what behavior would you like to see when primary memory is under extreme pressure? | | |
| ▲ | baq a day ago | parent | next [-] | | See mac or windows: grow swap automatically up to some sane limit, show a warning, give user an option to kill stuff; on headless systems, kill stuff. Do not page out critical system processes like sshd or the compositor. A hard lock which requires a reboot or god forbid power cycling is the worst possible outcome, literally anything else which doesn’t start a fire is an improvement TBH. | | |
| ▲ | jpc0 a day ago | parent [-] | | > A hard lock which requires a reboot or god forbid power cycling is the worst possible outcome Hilariously this happens on windows too. Actually everything you said windows and mac doesn't do they do, if you put on a ton a memory pressure the system becomes unresponsive and locks up... | | |
| ▲ | thewebguyd a day ago | parent [-] | | I've OOMd on my mac several times, and it has never gone completely unresponsive. You get an OOM dialog with a list of apps that you can have it kill. | | |
| ▲ | socksy a day ago | parent [-] | | I feel I just need to run a slightly too large LLM with too much context on a MBP, and it's enough to slow it down irreparably until it suddenly hard resets. Maybe the memory pressure it does that at is much higher though compared to Linux? |
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| ▲ | jhasse a day ago | parent | prev [-] | | Same as Windows. Instead the system freezes. |
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| ▲ | marcodiego a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | I thought that was fixed after MGLRU. | |
| ▲ | stdbrouw a day ago | parent | prev [-] | | I feel like all of the elements are there: zram, zswap, various packages that improve on default oom handling... maybe it's more about creating sane defaults that "just work" at this point? | | |
| ▲ | gf000 a day ago | parent [-] | | I think it's more of a user space issue, that the UI doesn't degrade nicely. The kernel just defaults to a more server-oriented approach. |
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| ▲ | captn3m0 a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| My favourite is the Windows futex primitives being shipped on Linux: https://lwn.net/Articles/961884/ |
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| ▲ | GZGavinZhao a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Next thing I want them to work on is Linux suspend(-to-RAM) support! |
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| ▲ | asdff a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| I wish valve didn't abandon mac as a platform, honestly. As nice as these improvements are for linux and deck users they have effectively abandoned their mac ports as they never updated them to 64 bit like the linux and windows builds, so they can't run on new macs at all. You can coax them into running with wine on mac but it is a very tricky experience. My kegworks wine wrapper for tf2 is currently broken as of last month because the game update download from wine steam keeps corrupting and I'm at a bit of a loss at this point how to work around it. Even when it was working performance was not great and subject to regular lag spikes whenever too many explosions went off. |
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| ▲ | ux266478 a day ago | parent | next [-] | | I totally get why they did, having had to support Mac for an in-house engine. Apple is by far the most painful platform to support out of the big 3 if you're not using turnkey tools, and they don't make up for it with sales outside of iOS. The extra labor is hard to justify already, and then we get to technical deficiencies like MoltenVK, plus social deficiencies like terrible support. It's just a really hard sell all around. | |
| ▲ | ndsipa_pomu 10 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | It was likely about control. Valve saw that Microsoft was becoming more controlling about the Windows platform and that's what pushed them towards developing SteamOS on Linux as that means that Valve can put resources into fixing anything that they want to. The Apple platform is also under control of a single entity, so it doesn't make too much sense for Valve to care about that (as well as Apple not being known as a gaming platform). What you should do is just buy a SteamDeck for gaming. |
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| ▲ | foresto a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| They needed less stuttering in games and we got an optimized shader compiler for the open-source graphics stack. https://steamcommunity.com/games/221410/announcements/detail... |
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| ▲ | delusional a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| > Valve is practically singlehandedly dragging the Linux ecosystem forward in areas that nobody else wanted to touch. I'm loving what valve has been doing, and their willingness to shove money into projects that have long been under invested in, BUT. Please don't forget all the volunteers that have developed these systems for years before valve decided to step up. All of this is only possible because a ton of different people spent decades slowly building a project, that for most of it's lifetime seemed like a dead end idea. Wine as a software package is nothing short of miraculous. It has been monumentally expensive to build, but is provided to everyone to freely use as they wish. Nobody, and I do mean NOBODY would have funded a project that spent 20 years struggling to run office and photoshop. Valve took it across the finish line into commercially useful project, but they could not have done that without the decade+ of work before that. |
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| ▲ | aeyes a day ago | parent | next [-] | | Long before Valve there was CrossOver which sold a polished version of Wine making a lot of Windows only enterprise software work on Linux. I'm sure there have been more commercial contributors to Wine other than Valve and CodeWeavers. | |
| ▲ | mixmastamyk 20 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Like giving the Han Solo award to the Rebel Fleet. ;-) |
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| ▲ | PartiallyTyped a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| To be fair proton is based on DXVK which is some guy’s project because he wanted to play nier automata on Linux. The guy is Philip Rebohler. |
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| ▲ | HexPhantom 15 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Yeah, it's a great example of demand-driven open source work actually landing in places that matter |
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| ▲ | thdrtol a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| I have a feeling this will also drag Linux mobile forwards. Currently almost no one is using Linux for mobile because the lack or apps (banking for example) and bad hardware support.
When developing for Linux becomes more and more attractive this might change. |
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| ▲ | thewebguyd a day ago | parent [-] | | > When developing for Linux becomes more and more attractive this might change. If one (or maybe two) OSes win, then sure. The problem is there is no "develop for Linux" unless you are writing for the kernel. Each distro is a standalone OS. It can have any variety of userland. You don't develop "for Linux" so much as you develop "for Ubuntu" or "for Fedora" or "for Android" etc. | | |
| ▲ | Root_Denied 15 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | There's always appimages or flatpaks that could fill that cross-distro gap, though I suspect a lot of development work would need to be done to get that to a point where either of those are streamlined enough to work in the phone ecosystem. | |
| ▲ | Zetaphor 18 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | This is addressed (imperfectly) by Flatpak |
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| ▲ | irusensei a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| If I'm not mistaken this has been greatly facilitated by the recent bpf based extension mechanism that allows developers to go crazy on creating schedulers and other functionality through some protected virtual machine mechanism provided by the kernel. |
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| ▲ | rcbdev a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| In game development, you encounter most hard computer science problems. |
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| ▲ | teekert a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| They also sponsor bcachefs. |
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| ▲ | raverbashing a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Let's be honest Linux (and its ecosystem) sucks at having focus and direction. They might get something right here and there, especially related to servers, but they are awful at not spinning wheels See how wayland progress is slow. See how some distros moved to it only after a lot of kicking and screaming. See how a lot of peripherals in "newer" (sometimes a model that's 2 or 3 yrs on the market) only barely works in a newer distro. Or has weird bugs "but the manufacturers..." "but the hw producers..." "but open source..." whine Because Linux lacks a good hierarchy at isolating responsibility, otherwise going for a "every kernel driver can do all it wants" together with "interfaces that keep flipping and flopping at every new kernel release" - notable (good) exception : USB userspace drivers. And don't even get me started on the whole mess that is xorg drivers And then you have a Ruby Goldberg machine in form of udev dbus and what not, or whatever newer solution that solves half the problems and create another new collection of bugs. |
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| ▲ | cosmic_cheese a day ago | parent [-] | | Honestly I can't see it remaining tenable to keep things like drivers in the kernel for too much longer… both due to the sheer speed at the industry moves and due to the security implications involved. |
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| ▲ | znpy a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| If anything it’s crazy that a company as large as meta is doing such a shitty job that it has to pull in solutions from entirely different industries … but that’s just my opinion |
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| ▲ | znpy a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Gaben is our lord and saviour. |
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| ▲ | downrightmike a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Man, if only meta would give back, oh and also stop letting scammers use their AI to scam our parents, but hey, that accounted for 10% of their revenue this last year, that's $16 BILLION. |
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| ▲ | phatfish a day ago | parent | next [-] | | Valve seemingly has no concerns with using the same tactics casinos perfected to hook people (and their demographics are young). They are not Meta level of societal harm, but they are happy to be a gateway for kids into gambling. Not that this is unusual in gaming unfortunately. | |
| ▲ | justapassenger a day ago | parent | prev [-] | | Like them or not - when it comes to the Linux kernel they are one of the biggest contributors for many years now. |
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| ▲ | ls612 a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Gaben does nothing: Wins Gaben does something: Wins Harder |
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| ▲ | 7bit a day ago | parent [-] | | He's the person I want to meet the least from all the people in the world, he is that much of my hero. |
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| ▲ | dabockster a day ago | parent | prev [-] |
| > This is the best kind of open source trickledown. We shouldn't be depending on trickledown anything. It's nice to see Valve contributing back, but we all need to remember that they can totally evaporate/vanish behind proprietary licensing at any time. |
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| ▲ | dymk a day ago | parent | next [-] | | They have to abide by the Wine license, which is basically GPL, so unless they’re going to make their own from scratch, they can’t make the bread and butter of their compat layer proprietary | | |
| ▲ | nextaccountic a day ago | parent [-] | | That's why the anti-GPL push is so harmful. Specially in the Rust ecosystem | | |
| ▲ | bigstrat2003 21 hours ago | parent [-] | | There is absolutely nothing harmful about permissive licenses. Let's say that Wine was under the MIT license, and Valve started publishing a proprietary fork. The original is still there! Nobody is harmed by some proprietary fork existing, because nothing was taken away from them. | | |
| ▲ | nextaccountic 4 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | It's harmful to the ecosystem, because the reason so many Linux drivers, and Wine contributions, and a lot of other things are free software today is because of the GPL | |
| ▲ | gpderetta 12 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | A decade or two ago Wine was on permissive license (MIT I think). When proprietary forks started appearing, Codewavers (which employs all the major Wine contributors) relicensed it as GPL. |
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| ▲ | stavros a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | How? It's GPL. | |
| ▲ | jact a day ago | parent | prev [-] | | Can it vanish behind proprietary licensing? Pretty sure most of Valve’s stuff is under GPL so they can’t exactly evaporate that away. |
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