| ▲ | forgetfulness 5 hours ago |
| The implied promise was that these things were going to “revolutionize the workplace” i.e. massively automate middle class office jobs A couple of years down the road, their useful applications still are summarizing text, transferring style to text, generating code under strict supervision, and generating images that need retouching. That’s a lot to get out of a tool, but it’s dubious that investors were pouring trillions of dollars into these things thinking of automating away junior software engineers and low end design work. Edit: I forgot their other niche, that of generating homework and school test answers |
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| ▲ | mancerayder 4 hours ago | parent | next [-] |
| You forgot - cheating on job interviews, writing resumes to be repetitive, and adding an annoying flowery tone to non-native English speakers who think AI wrote something for them that isn't AI-obvious. |
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| ▲ | refactor_master an hour ago | parent | next [-] | | I wonder how many market inefficiencies this creates. People with worse education, people who cheated their way to a job opening compared to a better candidate, etc. Basically counteracting the productivity gains AI was supposed to bring. | |
| ▲ | forgetfulness 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Many of those things were already at a “good enough” level since GPT-3.5. There’s probably a good business usecase there for companies wanting to have smoother communication with offshore teams. Could that be a game-changer? I wouldn’t discount it, but it does sound like something that has to operate at a very low margin and that doesn’t merit a lot more investment. |
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| ▲ | ben_w 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| How many people graduate from a US software engineering degree each year? About 100k? If they (the 100k in the US) earn $100k each in the first year, before gaining the skills to earn more, that's $10 billion a year, every year. If you can capture that market for next 20 years, it's worth $200 billion. Except… can you capture it? A junior dev is… not exactly someone you want connecting to your business-critical database without supervision, and a real human dev will get better with a predictable rate. Will LLMs get better? The makers are betting on that, but we'll only know after the model releases, and even then after we play with them for a bit to differentiate between the record performance on whichever benchmark and the actual work we want them to do. Then there's the question of can you really keep an edge for 20 years with investments today: Sometime between 2030-2035, there's likely to be models matching 2025-SOTA performance that run on ${year}'s high-end smartphone. (Well, unless we all die in WW3 because of Russia getting desperate from its failure to remove Ukraine's sovereignty, or because China has a hot war with Taiwan and/or the USA messing with global consumer electronics supplies, but I don't think those get priced into the market…). |
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| ▲ | thousand_nights 4 hours ago | parent [-] | | > If you can capture that market for next 20 years, it's worth $200 billion. that's like 5% of NVIDIA's current market cap. sounds like peanuts when you lay it out like that | | |
| ▲ | ben_w 4 hours ago | parent [-] | | Perhaps. But that's just the USA's software developers in just their first year after graduating. Software devs are 1% of the US job market, the first year after graduation is (66-21=45 years, 1/45 ~= 2%) of a working life, the US is just 4% of the world's population/25% GDP. For the 1% to matter, there have to be other jobs that LLMs can do as well as a fresh graduate. I don't know, are LLMs like someone the first year out of law school or medical school, or are those schools better than software? Certainly the home robotics' AI are nowhere near ready yet, no plumber, no driver (despite the news about new car AIs), would you trust an Optimus to cut your hair? etc. For the 2% to matter, depends how seriously you take the projections of improvements. Myself, I do not. Looks like exponential improvements come at exponential costs, and you run out of money to spend for further improvements very quickly. For the 4% to matter, depends on how fast other economies grow. 4% by population, about 25% by GDP. I believe China is still growing quite fast, likely to continue. Them getting +160% growth, and thus getting 2.6x times the money available to burn on AI tokens, over the next 20 years would be unsurprising. All in all, I don't think the USA is competent enough at large-scale projects to handle the infrastructure that this kind of AI would need, so I think it's a bubble and will burst before 2030 because of that. China seems to be able to pull off this kind of infrastructure, so may pull ahead after the US does whatever it does. | | |
| ▲ | alwa 3 hours ago | parent [-] | | > For the 1% to matter, there have to be other jobs that LLMs can do as well as a fresh graduate. I don't know, are LLMs like someone the first year out of law school or medical school, or are those schools better than software? Before looking to medical and law schools, I might look to middle-manager school or salesperson school or bookkeeper school. I don’t know enough to speculate even beyond those crude guesses, but as I thought about this question, I found it interesting to skim the US’ employment-by-detailed-occupation chart: https://www.bls.gov/cps/cpsaat11b.htm |
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| ▲ | mmooss 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| That's the same mistake made with every new, and eventually successful, technology - we haven't found a valuable application yet, so the technology is not valuable. Finding the valuable application is often the hardest part. That it hasn't happened yet is meaningless. Some technologies sit on the shelf for decades. AI seems to have a lot of potential: It may be the most valuable technology ever; it may not provide more value than it does now, or something in between. Nobody actually knows. The challenge of innovation is managing that irreduceable risk. It starts by accepting risk, accepting that you don't know. One wrong way is to deny the risk - denying uncertainty - by either saying it's worthless or that success is guaranteed. |
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| ▲ | tartoran 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| > The implied promise was that these things were going to “revolutionize the workplace” i.e. massively automate middle class office jobs Promise by who? I think the bet is that it would lay off nearly everyone white collar and let AI take its place. |
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| ▲ | simianparrot 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| The hardware also wears out really fast. And every replacement is more expensive. How long can that party keep going when none of the companies make enough revenue to cover the expenses? |
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| ▲ | lagosfractal42 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| GPUs have massive applications such as Alphafold, CRISPR, Medical Imaging, Meteorology. The massive planetary investment is not to make more AI chats that summarize text. That's just short sighted. |
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| ▲ | counters 4 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | > Meteorology It seems like that at first glance. But in reality, GPUs have had extremely slow adoption for real-world operational meteorology applications. Because of the fundamental design and architecture of most NWP systems, it was very difficult to leverage GPUs as compute accelerators; most efforts barely eked out any performance gains once you account for host/device memory transfers. It really wasn't until some groups started to design new weather modeling systems from the ground up that they could architect things in such a way that GPUs made a significant difference. Obviously AI / ML weather modeling is a different story. | |
| ▲ | munk-a 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | As someone working in a field that has used NLP for quite some time - yeah, I generally agree that those investments are worth their weight in gold... which is unfortunate because before ChatGPT came along they were viewed as niche unprofitable money-sinks. The astronomical investments we've seen lately have been in general models which can be leveraged to outperform some of our older models but had we wanted purely to improve those models there were much more efficient ways to do so. Hopefully we can retain a lot of this value when the bubble bursts but I just haven't seen any really good success stories of converting these models into businesses. If you try and build as a middleman where you leverage a model to solve someone's problem they can always just go to the model runner and get the same results for cheaper - and the model runners seem (so far - this may change) to be unable to price model usage at a level that actually makes it sustainable. Those older models running specialized tasks seem to be trucking along just fine for now - but I remain concerned that when the bubble bursts it's going to starve these necessary investments of capital. | | |
| ▲ | foobarian 5 hours ago | parent [-] | | > converting these models into businesses. I think it's pretty clear to all the big operators that they will need to go whole hog into ads and take some of the Google/Meta pie. It's just a matter of time. |
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| ▲ | KalMann 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | You're missing the point. Those kind of narrow AI applications are not the motivation for the trillions of dollars being poured into AI. Of course AI has a variety of applications many disciplines, as it has for decades. The motivation behind the massive investment in AI is as forgetfulness said, reap the benefits from "revolutionizing the workplace" | |
| ▲ | ares623 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | That’s copium, as the kids say nowadays. The massive planetary investment is a 100% for AI chats. All those other things are taking the crumbs where they can. | | |
| ▲ | chickensong 4 hours ago | parent [-] | | Big business and government aren't buying supercomputer clusters and licensing models to run chats. | | |
| ▲ | munk-a 3 hours ago | parent [-] | | The really weird thing is that Big Business actually is buying supercomputer clusters to do just that. I can't really talk to the government side but a lot of businesses' early forays into AI was just slapping a chatbot on their product and hoping it'd attract a lot more business. I also think you'd be surprised how integrated really dumb chatbots are into business communication these days. I think most smart people are looking seriously at different models to try and improve the accuracy of any existing ML uses they had in their business but the new features built post-ChatGPT tend to often just be fancied up chats. | | |
| ▲ | badlogic 32 minutes ago | parent | next [-] | | I can talk for the gov. site in my European home country: they too are buying GPUs for chat ... | |
| ▲ | chickensong 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | > just slapping a chatbot on their product That's happening of course, but that's not really the whole picture. Any org that already invests in R&D is likely considering or already implementing modern AI tech into their existing infrastructure. A big oil or pharmaceutical or materials company likely doesn't care much about chat bots, or any customer-facing tech for that matter. | | |
| ▲ | refactor_master an hour ago | parent [-] | | Actually, big orgs are doing exactly that; slapping a chatbot onto their support ticket backlog. Being really, actually “data driven” is hard, and must happen from the bottom up. So instead there’s chatbots in their frontend and support backend, but the backend doing the actual lifting probably hasn’t changed one bit. |
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| ▲ | hyperbovine 5 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Eh, those applications (incl. protein folding) existed for a decade-plus before LLMs came onto the scene, and there was absolutely nothing like the scale of capex that we're seeing right now. It's like literally 100-1000x larger than what GPU hosting providers were spending previously. |
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| ▲ | DuperPower 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| its helping people be more productive but its not helping firing people which was the wet dream |
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| ▲ | bluefirebrand 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| > thinking of automating away junior software engineers and low end design work. And it's really still very arguable imo if it's even doing this Like you said, it still needs strict supervision. In my opinion it is not a good use of your supervisory time to be babysitting an LLM versus mentoring actual juniors |
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| ▲ | kergonath 4 hours ago | parent [-] | | > In my opinion it is not a good use of your supervisory time to be babysitting an LLM versus mentoring actual juniors Right. Because at least juniors are supposed to learn and at some point become senior and stop needing this kind of supervision. Also, interacting with people can be more rewarding (or not, depending on the people)… |
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| ▲ | VirusNewbie 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Ok, ignoring any AGI or massive advances, let's just say an LLM can help the average office worker be 15% more productive... what do you think the economic value of that is? |
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| ▲ | gizajob an hour ago | parent | next [-] | | They'll waste 15% more of the day. | |
| ▲ | forgetfulness 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | 100 billion a year, with math that’s downright delusional. So, back of the envelope math, the US GDP is 27.72T USD, 80% (22.18) corresponds to the tertiary sector. Let’s say that this is a 15% increase over a 10 years period, because YoY a boom like the computer revolution itself looks like 2% increases a year.[1]. This amounts to about 1.5% increases each year. Let’s just make the huge leap that you can just scale the productivity up of all this just by making typing out reports and emails a faster activity, and summarizing information for which you’re not facing liability if the bot gets it wrong. Yes, including the nurses, cleaners, truckers, teamsters, all of it. 1.5% of it is a cool 330 billion. How much of a cut of that productivity increase could AI companies take? 30%? That’s 100 billion in one year there. So with pie-in-the-sky math, they could break even if their obligations throughout the decade don’t amount to 1 trillion (since those 1.5T in bonds issued this year mature in longer periods) 1. https://www.bls.gov/opub/mlr/2021/article/the-us-productivit... |
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| ▲ | carlosjobim 5 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| The value of LLM is reliable high quality translation between all languages. The economic value of this is at least trillions of dollars per year. The cultural and humanitarian value is equally gigantic, even if it can't be measured in dollars and cents. |
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| ▲ | munk-a 5 hours ago | parent [-] | | That is of immense social value - but manual translation services for commercial projects (like application localization) is already dirt cheap to do and automatic casual translation services for consumers would be incredibly difficult to monetize. | | |
| ▲ | carlosjobim 4 hours ago | parent [-] | | I think your perspective might be severely limited. There exists millions of businesses outside of big IT enterprises. | | |
| ▲ | munk-a 3 hours ago | parent [-] | | I will freely admit this - but I have led a localization effort on a mobile game and worked on localization for a desktop application. I am also lucky enough to travel abroad quite a bit and am quite familiar with consumer offerings. So I would fairly limit my experience to consumer and medium-sized business uses - I have no experience with large corporate translation efforts (the largest would probably be Ubisoft or the Mouse-Ears company's gaming divisions if you consider them large) and even the small mobile game company I worked at had a budget in the millions range. It certainly hasn't been a focus of my career but I feel comfortable standing by my statement above. |
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| ▲ | ares623 5 hours ago | parent | prev [-] |
| Not only that, but it’s devaluing the sacred cows of the very same companies that are investing heavily. Search is dead or dying Social media is dead or dying Content creation is dead or dying If they cant make AI work, then they are left with AI at a level that continues to devalue their core business. They have no choice. They made a deal with the devil. And the devil means to collect. This is why I think Apple is lucky their attempt failed so bad. They dodged a bullet. They have an opportunity to guide a lost tech industry through a post AI bubble world. |