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hearsathought 15 hours ago

Imagine if south korea needed china's permission to build nuclear submarines. We'd called them china's vassals and attack china for being bullies who deprived nations of their sovereignty.

Imagine if the title was : "China Gives South Korea Green Light to Build Nuclear Submarines".

What would the comments here be like. No doubt a lot of nonsense about "the ccp" this and "the ccp" that.

Glyptodon 15 hours ago | parent | next [-]

I will say that the "in/on US territory" piece is a very key detail.

Like obviously no matter the country, if you want to build weapons offshore in their territory you probably need permission.

hearsathought 14 hours ago | parent [-]

> I will say that the "in/on US territory" piece is a very key detail.

That's the point. South korea is not allowed to build nuclear submarines in their own territory. They lack the sovereignty to do it. The US won't give them permission to build one on their own.

But you probably knew this and your comment is meant to distract.

mmooss 4 hours ago | parent | next [-]

I believe that's accurate. SK depends on the US for its security, and also generally is a memeber of the US-led order and coordinates with it. The spread of high-value miltiary technologies is limited to maintain secrecy and the US-led order's technological advantage.

Countries like SK seem to let the US do the heavy lifting, including fighting major wars with them and for them, and in return they give the US considerable influence over international relations and military affairs.

OneDeuxTriSeiGo 14 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

That's just not true? South Korean ministers have been discussing building nuclear submarines domestically long before this current agreement.

And the US has an agreement with South Korea that limits domestic production of fissile material for military uses but it's a mutual agreement that we have with a bunch of countries (including China) and is essentially always renegotiable as situations change. Essentially it's just an explicit agreement of how much material a given country intends on producing for the purposes of requiring public political discussions domestically before ramping up production.

That is all very much a flexible situation and the US doesn't have any actual power to legitimately stop South Korea from manufacturing domestic nuclear reactors for military purposes.

12 hours ago | parent [-]
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cookingmyserver 14 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Citation needed. I am unable to find any treaty that prevents the RoK from building nuclear submarines on their own territory.

hearsathought 14 hours ago | parent [-]

> Citation needed. I am unable to find any treaty that prevents the RoK from building nuclear submarines on their own territory.

Are you being intentionally dense? Why wouldn't they be building it in their own territory if nobody was stopping them?

Besides, I already replied to your other comment that South korea is not allowed to enrich uranium by the US.

OneDeuxTriSeiGo 14 hours ago | parent | next [-]

> Are you being intentionally dense? Why wouldn't they be building it in their own territory if nobody was stopping them?

They actually could. This has been an ongoing discussion in South Korean politics for years. Nuclear Submarine shipbuilding is a large undertaking and it requires a lot of security to prevent sabotage in ways that other types of shipbuilding just don't have to put up with. So it is in many ways cheaper and more secure to just rely on the US for nuclear shipbuilding as we already have the infrastructure and we are on the opposite side of the world from any adversaries who would have interest in sabotage.

> Besides, I already replied to your other comment that South korea is not allowed to enrich uranium by the US.

This is not true. There are mutual agreements that set the limits on enriched uranium for military purposes but they are flexible agreements that can be renegotiated or broken off as needed. The US has them with everyone including our allies and our adversaries. It's essentially just a tool to say "hey you need to discuss this publicly within your country first before you can change it". Nothing more or less.

cookingmyserver 14 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

No, I am not being dense. From your continued lack of citations I am starting to assume there is no law stopping the RoK from enriching uranium (though I have been trying to find one). Uranium enrichment facilities are expensive. If you have a partner nation who is willing to sell you the enriched uranium that just makes sense. Again, it being the property of another nation, they have the right to judge who should have access it it and what they might do with it. If RoK wanted to spend a percentage of their GDP on enrichment facilities they could. They don't have an urgent reason to. Further they don't have any deposits of any uranium to begin with so they would still need to partner with another nation anyways, so I ask you - Why would RoK want their own enrichment facilities?

hearsathought 14 hours ago | parent [-]

> No, I am not being dense.

Yes you are. An easy tell is "citation needed".

> there is no law

Another tell.

> If RoK wanted to spend a percentage of their GDP on enrichment facilities they could

And they have in the past. Guess who shut that down?

> They don't have an urgent reason to.

South korea is surrounded by 3 nuclear powers ( north korea, china, russia ) and militarily occupied by another nuclear power and yet, they have no urgent reason to? Good one.

> Why would RoK want their own enrichment facilities?

This is just absurd. Your questions answer themselves. And it's obvious you already know the answers but just are trying to distract.

You keep googling and I'll look for the citations. Okay buddy?

IncreasePosts 14 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

> Why wouldn't they be building it in their own territory if nobody was stopping them?

Because they don't have the facilities to build a nuclear sub, and America does, since America has built over 200+ nuclear submarines in the past?

Building a nuclear sub, and fueling it, are two separate things.

kelipso 14 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

The US invaded South Korea, had and still has massive influence on their government, has military bases there. It’s just polite fiction to ignore the fact that South Korea is a US vassal. Makes US look better in the media, etc.

mmooss 4 hours ago | parent | next [-]

> The US invaded South Korea ?

When was that? After the Pacific War with Japan, the US had bases in SK (from driving Japan out of SK?). NK and eventually China invaded SK and the US defended them, and since then SK has given the US military bases in order to deter NK and China.

JumpCrisscross 13 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

> It’s just polite fiction to ignore the fact that South Korea is a US vassal

Korea is an American suzerainty. Not vassal. Similar to North Korea:China. One of the strategic considerations in countering China in Taiwan is whether Japan and Korea would refused their territory from getting involved. That's a veto a vassal doesn't get.

Iran under the Shah was a U.S. vassal. Same for Ghani's Afghanistan. (Belarus: Russia.)

hearsathought 13 hours ago | parent [-]

> Korea is an American suzerainty. Not vassal. Similar to North Korea:China.

That's why north korea has nukes? South Korea:US is not analogous to North Korea:China. Neither is Pakistan:China analogous to South Korea:US. If you analogy held, south korea would be a nuclear power.

Stop commenting on things you know nothing about. Honestly, do you think you are an expert in every geopolitical topic?

JumpCrisscross 12 hours ago | parent [-]

EDIT: Reply deleted. Troll/flamebait account.

JumpCrisscross 14 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> We'd called them china's vassals and attack china for being bullies who deprived nations of their sovereignty

The treaty restricting Korea is the Treaty on the Non-Proliferation of Nuclear Weapons [1]. America is giving Seoul a loophole by offering to do the NPT-governed work.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_on_the_Non-Proliferatio...

hearsathought 14 hours ago | parent [-]

[flagged]

tyre 14 hours ago | parent | next [-]

America is doing South Korea a favor. It could ratchet sanctions (see: Iran) and ravage SK’s position and economic power on the global stage without its sign-off.

hearsathought 14 hours ago | parent [-]

> America is doing South Korea a favor.

No. America is doing itself a favor. Not south korea.

> It could ratchet sanctions (see: Iran) and ravage SK’s position and economic power on the global stage without its sign-off.

So you are saying that korea is not a sovereign state like iran but a vassal to the US. Maybe the US could protect korea (see: Israel) and send billions of taxpayer dollars to korea.

JumpCrisscross 13 hours ago | parent [-]

> No. America is doing itself a favor. Not south korea.

You realise a deal can be both?

> you are saying that korea is not a sovereign state like iran but a vassal

False dichotomy. Korea is not as sovereign as the US, Russia or China because it's not a global nuclear power. Whether Seoul or Tehran are functionally more sovereign is an interesting question that isn't easily answered.

> Maybe the US could protect korea (see: Israel) and send billions of taxpayer dollars to korea

...do you think we don't?

hearsathought 13 hours ago | parent [-]

> You realise a deal can be both?

Realize. If you are going to pretend you are american, learn to spell like one.

> False dichotomy.

It's not a false dichotomy. Please take a few courses in philosophy and logic before throwing fancy terms around.

> Korea is not as sovereign as the US, Russia or China because it's not a global nuclear power.

"As sovereign". Sovereignty isn't a matter of degrees. It's more like being pregnant. You are or you are not.

> Whether Seoul or Tehran are functionally more sovereign is an interesting question that isn't easily answered.

It's not interesting at all because tehran isn't militarily occupied by a foreign power.

> ...do you think we don't?

"We" do? Don't think south korea has the lobbying power or influence that israel does. If it did, it'd have the enrichment facilities and nuclear weapons that israel has.

JumpCrisscross 13 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

> Or maybe Korea could be like India...and not be part of it

Sure. That comes with costs. Cost that may not make sense for Korea, which is a defense exporter globally and within the American-led Pacific alliance.

(Operating a nuclear shipyard and supply chain is incredibly expensive. It's would also be a high-value target for Pyongynag.)

> your native country

Is this a troll account? (EDIT: 4 months old. Peeked through comment history. All flamebait and racism. Flagged.)

> a loophole seoul doesn't need

You're using the word "need" ambiguously. It's a loophole Seoul benefits from. It gets the benefits of being an NPT signatory and alliance member. And it gets nuclear submarines.

We can debate the costs and benefits. But Seoul wasn't coerced into building a nuclear submarine. Put plainly, it's unclear what security benefits it gets from one given it doesn't project into blue waters.

> You act like america is doing korea a favor

Within narrow confines, it is. Within broader confines, it's acting as the senior security partner. That obviously involves a cession of sovereignty. Same goes for Pakistan vis-a-vis China, or Belarus with Russia.

hearsathought 13 hours ago | parent [-]

> Is this a troll account?

If you have to ask, no. But then again, since you went through my comment history, you know it's not.

> (EDIT: 4 months old. Peeked through comment history. All flamebait.)

Flamebait? That's rich coming from you.

> Same goes for Pakistan vis-a-vis China,

Are you seriously comparing nuclear armed pakistan/china with south korea/US? You are so unserious that it's hard to take you seriously.

You truly are an expert at everything. Where do you find the time with your nonstop posting here.

JumpCrisscross 12 hours ago | parent [-]

> Where do you find the time with your nonstop posting

I fit it in between investing, skiing and flying. (My cat is already comfortable in helicopters and flying commercial, so I don’t think it will be a big step into a smaller plane.)

osti 15 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

That's why reading comments about geopolitics on the Internet is largely useless. Big news! A country's population supports its own country on international stage! If you go on Chinese social media, it'll be mostly about how awful the Americans are, and vice versa if you are on Reddit for example. So what is even the point of reading them, anywhere..

mh- 14 hours ago | parent [-]

I think you and I are on very different Reddits, if you're using it as an example of pro-American social media.

Fully agree that reading either for geopolitical opinions is useless.

cookingmyserver 14 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I don't think any country has the right to demand that another country hands over enriched uranium and allow them to move into a shipyard so that they could build a nuclear sub. Of course you need permission from a seller to buy products and use their facilities. I would recommend going beyond simply reading the headline.

hearsathought 14 hours ago | parent [-]

> I don't think any country has the right to demand that another country hands over enriched uranium and allow them to move into a shipyard so that they could build a nuclear sub.

The US won't allow south korea to enrich uranium on their own. Want to try again?

> I would recommend going beyond simply reading the headline.

Another intentional distracting comment.

jtuple 14 hours ago | parent [-]

> The US won't allow south korea to enrich uranium on their own. Want to try again?

190 nations have signed the Non-Proliferation Treaty. This includes China, so the very US vs China premise here is misplaced.

[The US, UK, France, Russia, China and 185 other countries] won't allow south korea to enrich uranium on their own

hearsathought 14 hours ago | parent [-]

> 190 nations have signed the Non-Proliferation Treaty.

Who cares?

> This includes China, so the very US vs China premise here is misplaced.

Sure. But it wasn't china that stopped korea's and japan's secret nuclear programs. It was the US.

> [The US, UK, France, Russia, China and 185 other countries] won't allow south korea to enrich uranium on their own

Just like they prevented north korea...

Your response debunks your response. It's quite remarkable actually.

The only country that can prevent another country is the one militarily occupying it. China, France, Russia, UK and the other 185 countries don't militarily occupy south korea. The only reason north korea, israel, india, pakistan, etc were able to go nuclear is because they are not vassal states military occupied by a foreign power.

JumpCrisscross 13 hours ago | parent [-]

> Who cares?

You don't understand why South Korea might care about nuclear proliferation?

hearsathought 13 hours ago | parent [-]

If india doesn't care, why should south korea? India only has 2 nuclear powers surrounding it. South korea has 4. Why should korea care more than india? I'd love to hear your thoughts as an indian on this matter. You are my goto indian guru on all matters geopolitics, politics, economics, tech, sports ( cricket, not baseball for obvious reasons ), etc. I await enlightenment.

14 hours ago | parent | prev [-]
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