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rodarima 13 hours ago

Maintainer here.

We are currently in the process of moving Dillo away from GitHub:

- New website (nginx): https://dillo-browser.org/

- Repositories (C, cgit): https://git.dillo-browser.org/

- Bug tracker (C, buggy): https://bug.dillo-browser.org/

They should survive HN hug.

The CI runs on git hooks and outputs the logs to the web (private for now).

All services are very simple and work without JS, so Dillo can be developed fully within Dillo itself.

During this testing period I will continue to sync the GitHub git repository, but in the future I will probably mark it as archived.

See also:

- https://fosstodon.org/@dillo/114927456382947046

- https://fosstodon.org/@dillo/115307022432139097

mhitza 9 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Haven't got the chance to play around with it, but looks fun. And maybe something cool to use to repackage into an alternative Tor/I2P browser for hidden websites.

What's holding back CSS and HTML support (at their specific versions) and is there interest of expanding that support in full, but lacking resources?

lhmiles an hour ago | parent [-]

Oh tor client is good idea

puttycat 10 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Can you say more about why you're moving away from GitHub?

rodarima 9 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Many reasons, in no particular order:

- It is extremely slow and resource intensive. Opening any link/page takes at least 3 seconds on my fastest computer, but the content is mostly text with images.

- It cannot be used without JS (it used to be at least readable, now only the issue description loads). I want the bug tracker to be readable from Dillo itself. There are several CLI options but those are no better than just storing the issues as files and using my editor.

- It forces users to create an account to interact and it doesn't interoperate with other forges. It is a walled garden owned by a for-profit corporation.

- You need an Internet connection to use it and a good one. Loading the main page of the dillo repo requires 3 MiB of traffic (compressed) This is more than twice the size of a release of Dillo (we use a floppy disk as limit). Loading our index of all opened issues downloads 7.6 KiB (compressed).

- Replying by email mangles the content (there is no Markdown?).

- I cannot add (built-in) dependencies across issues.

I'll probably write some post with more details when we finally consider the migration complete.

hoistbypetard 7 hours ago | parent | next [-]

> I want the bug tracker to be readable from Dillo itself.

I’m glad you’re prioritizing this and that you consider this a reason to choose a different forge.

a96 an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-]

It's an excellent choice. Though Microsoft alone should be a sufficient answer. Many people will never interact with github projects because it requires an account with the most unethical company that ever existed.

https://sfconservancy.org/GiveUpGitHub/

369548684892826 an hour ago | parent [-]

> the most unethical company that ever existed

Maybe in the tech world, but in the real world there are companies such as Nestlé out there competing for this title.

dbtc 9 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

I appreciate these priorities!

blks an hour ago | parent | prev [-]

MS will steal your code for their slop machines.

bromuro 7 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

The website doesn’t display correctly when I increase the browser’s font size, and it doesn’t work in reader mode. :(

I have poor eyesight, so I can’t read the content.

Maxion 26 minutes ago | parent [-]

Huh? For me it works fine? Are you sure you are on https://dillo-browser.org/ ?

threemux 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Hi there - love Dillo. I use it on NetBSD and it works great. Once you're off GitHub will there be a way to get notified of releases? I use GitHub's RSS feeds for that now.

mtillman 10 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

It still has great looking icons, a proper boarder bevel, and real scroll bars. Thank you!

jagged-chisel 10 hours ago | parent [-]

I’m imagining a comfy bevel on the bench outside your hostile where your boarders can sit happily.

jesperwe 2 hours ago | parent | next [-]

And read scrolls while having a a cocktail in the bar.

axiolite 8 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> outside your hostile

I don't imagine you'll get much business at your hostile...

They'd probably rather go to hotels or youth hostels instead.

hcs 10 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I'm imagining a place for boarders to stay confrontationally

7 hours ago | parent | prev [-]
[deleted]
fishgoesblub 13 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Why cgit and not something nice like Gitea, or Forgejo?

Bolwin 11 hours ago | parent | next [-]

They're like 10x more complex and you don't need most of their functionality for just a frontend.

That said I wish there was something a little better than cgit

messe 11 hours ago | parent [-]

Have you looked at self hosting sourcehut (https://sourcehut.org/)?

rodarima 10 hours ago | parent [-]

Yes, but all those services have the same main problem: a single point of failure. They also don't work offline.

I believe that storing the issues in plain text in git repositories synced across several git servers is more robust and future-proof, but time will tell.

Having a simple storage format allows me to later on export it to any other service if I change my mind.

mason_mpls 5 hours ago | parent [-]

What a breath of fresh air, I’m watching people dance with plain text behind the bars of Jira, GitLab & Teams

thesuitonym 12 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

My guess is gitea and forgejo don't render well in Dillo.

winningChild 12 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

[dead]

imglorp 13 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Repeating a warning from github about the old URL - dillo.org is not controlled by the devs and could become a malware route, is that right?

rodarima 12 hours ago | parent [-]

Yes, thanks for the reminder. This is what they write about:

https://dillo.org/post-sitemap.xml

At some point I should investigate if we can fill a complaint to get it taken down at least. Here is more info: https://dillo-browser.org/dillo.org.html

huflungdung 10 hours ago | parent [-]

[dead]

znpy 12 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I have the fondest memories of running dillo under netbsd on my hp jornada 728, around 2008 -2009… thank you for all the work!

MarsIronPI 11 hours ago | parent | next [-]

I remember installing Debian on my OLPC XO-1. Dillo and Netsurf were the only browsers that I even tried running on that thing (w. 512MB RAM). Netsurf had better compatibility, but Dillo was noticeably faster and more responsive. Truly a pleasure to use when it supported the site I was on.

jmclnx 11 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

And dillo still works great on NetBSD :)

I think it is becoming more important to i386 BSD, especially since i386 OpenBSD can no longer build Firefox, Seamonkey and IIRC Chrome on i386 systems.

I have been using dillo more and more as time goes on, plus you can get plugins for Gemini Protocol and Gopher.

anthk 11 hours ago | parent [-]

gemini://gemi.dev with News Waffle it's a godsend to read bloated news sites, both in English and in Spanish. Also, gopher://magical.fish The register, some bloated Spanish such as Xataka and Genbeta...

eikenberry 13 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

What is the bug tracking software you are using?

rodarima 12 hours ago | parent | next [-]

I wrote my own:

https://git.dillo-browser.org/buggy/

It fetches the issues from GitHub and stores them in <number>/index.md in Markdown format, with some special headers. I then keep the issues in a git repository:

https://git.dillo-browser.org/bugtracker/

So we have a very robust storage that we can move around and also allows me to work offline. When I want to push changes, I just push them via git, then buggy(1) runs in the server via a web hook. This also tracks the edit changes.

While typing, I often use `find . -name '*.md' | entr make` which regenerates the issues that have changed into HTML as well as the index, then sends a SIGUSR1 to dillo, which reloads the issue page.

The nice thing of allowing arbitrary HTML inline is that I can write the reproducers in the issue itself:

https://git.dillo-browser.org/bugtracker/tree/501/index.md#n...

Closing an issue is just changing the header "State: open" by "State: closed", often with a comment pointing to the merged commit.

keyle 10 hours ago | parent | next [-]

That is very cool.

khimaros 12 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

maybe of interest: https://github.com/git-bug/git-bug

saint_yossarian 13 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

https://git.dillo-browser.org/buggy/

kragen 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

That's wonderful to see!

al_be_back 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

happy anniversary!

> Uses the fast and bloat-free FLTK GUI library [1]

Bloat as a moat, is sadly the strategy of much of the web or apps in recent years. High Performance has shifted into how fast we can serve bloat. Efficiency has become about pushing the most bloat with least time.

Pages are bloated, sites are bloated, browsers are bloated, browser-market is bloated (two-a-dime! or three for free). The whole damn web is a big bloat. wtf happened.

[1] https://dillo-browser.github.io/

mason_mpls 5 hours ago | parent | next [-]

More memory means more memory for my website to take up!

1vuio0pswjnm7 6 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

"High performance has shifted into how fast we can serve bloat."

If remove ads and behavioural tracking, speed is faster

But goal of Big Tech, who make the popular browsers, is to make speed faster (fast enough) _with_ ads and tracking

User wants fast speed. User does not want ads and tracking. Big Tech wants users in order to target with ads and tracking. Big Tech tries top deliver fast speed to keep users interested

User can achieve fast speed _without_ ads and tracking

I do it every day. I do not use a large propular browser to make HTTP requests nor to read HTML

nicoburns 13 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Is there some kind of status tracker somewhere. That describes which web standards are supported?

rodarima 13 hours ago | parent [-]

Not really. There was this list but it is outdated: https://dillo-browser.org/old/css_compat/index.html

Probably the best indicator of which features are supported is to pass as many tests as possible from WPT that cover that feature.

I did some experiments to pass some tests from WPT, but many of them require JS to perform the check (I was also reading how you do it in blitz). It would probably be the best way forward, so it indicates what is actually supported.

nicoburns 12 hours ago | parent [-]

> but many of them require JS to perform the check

Yeah, if we add JS support to Blitz then one of our initial targets will probably be "enough to run the WPT test runner".

> I was also reading how you do it in blitz

We are able to run ~20k tests (~30k subtests) from the `css` directory without JS which is IMO more than enough for it to be worthwhile.

> Probably the best indicator of which features are supported is to pass as many tests as possible from WPT that cover that feature.

Yes, and no. It definitely is an indicator to some extent. But in implementing floats recently I've a lot of the web suddenly renders correctly, but I'm only passing ~100 more tests!

mixmastamyk 13 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Hmm, it is tiny on my highres screen. Anyone know how to double the scale?

O1111OOO 12 hours ago | parent [-]

Check out: /etc/dillo/dillorc

There are options here for (my setup below):

geometry=1600x900

increase font_factor=1.75

bg_color=0xFAF9F6

Start and Home pages too.

sylware 11 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

If they could move away from c++ too.... like plain and simple C like the netsurf browser?

anthk 11 hours ago | parent [-]

DIllo is much lighter and it supports Gopher, Gemini, Info, Man and potentially in a further future, URL rewritting plugins.

kragen 6 hours ago | parent [-]

Yeah, but C++ compilers are pretty heavyweight. That said, rewriting a C++ codebase in C is about as likely as rewriting it in Java, so it wasn't a good suggestions.

a96 an hour ago | parent [-]

Rewriting it in Rust is the obvious choice.

anthk 27 minutes ago | parent [-]

The worst choice. Rust doesn't compile under OpenBSD i386. Dillo runs even on PPC and some m68k platforms. If any, maye FLTK + C.

On C++ compilers, clang++ it's much faster than g++ under legacy platforms. Clang uses far less RAM and CPU than GCC while compiling.

I know we have no cproc/cparser or tcc for C++, but at least clang it's usable with 1GB of RAM.