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Restriction on Entry of Certain Nonimmigrant Workers(whitehouse.gov)
66 points by quantumwannabe 9 hours ago | 72 comments
gnabgib 8 hours ago | parent | next [-]

The $100K H1-B origin, the discussion on the front page continues (550 points, 3 hours ago, 601 comments) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45305845

C-x_C-f 8 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Love the irony of the numerically illiterate argument at the start:

> The number of foreign STEM workers in the United States has more than doubled between 2000 and 2019, increasing from 1.2 million to almost 2.5 million, while overall STEM employment has only increased 44.5 percent during that time.

Knowing that STEM employment only increased 44.5 percent doesn't tell you anything about the comparison if you don't know the absolute size. Turns out that there are around 11M STEM jobs in the US [0] so the increase in jobs is actually higher for American citizens (approx 2.7M vs 1.3M for foreign workers).

Maybe the White House needs more numerically skilled people?

[0] https://www.bls.gov/emp/tables/stem-employment.htm

rayiner 6 hours ago | parent | next [-]

The comparison as stated straightforwardly shows that the percentage of workers who are foreign born has grown. Your comparison is the odd one. Yes, the increase in jobs is higher for American citizens, in absolute numbers, than for foreign workers. Of course. These are jobs in America, after all. The baseline growth in foreign workers I’d expect would be zero.

sokoloff 8 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

If I'm concerned with the overall citizen population's job prospects, the relative size of the increases matters more to me than the absolute change.

If I created 1 nepotistic software job for my kid and 3 jobs for software professionals not related to me, I think very few people would look at that and say "Oh, well three times as many non-nepotistic jobs were created, so we can ignore the one..."

C-x_C-f 8 hours ago | parent [-]

How are H-1Bs comparable to nepotism?

sokoloff 8 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Don't focus on the nepotism aspect specifically, but rather that job group in one distinct, identifiable population (my kid or H1Bs) grew at a far higher rate than for the general (not my kids or not H1Bs) employment market, despite the latter experiencing more absolute growth.

C-x_C-f 7 hours ago | parent [-]

I still don't see what the issue is.

Consider two scenarios:

1. H-1Bs get massively reduced over the next five years. Tech sector crisis ensues due to market shocks. Foreign workers decrease. American workers go up by 25% (~2.5M).

2. H-1B numbers stay as is. Tech sector relatively unperturbed. Foreign workers increase by 50% (~1.3M). American workers increase by 30% (~3M).

Wouldn't you argue that 2 is preferable to 1?

(I'm not saying that a crisis will happen if H-1Bs end, I'm just presenting two scenarios with different relative increases that I believe prove my point)

sokoloff 7 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Are you asking if I would prefer a tech market that didn't experience a crisis over one that did and from my answer of "of course I do", believe that proves some unrelated point?

C-x_C-f 7 hours ago | parent [-]

The relevant variable here is the increase in jobs. The crisis in my example is just some exogenous variable. I'm genuinely trying to understand your point. In my view, if one cared more about difference in relative increases inter-group rather than absolute differences intra-group, then scenario 1 would be preferable.

hilsdev 7 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

I too am capable of semi random number generation

DaveExeter 8 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Maybe because nepotism leads to untalented people getting jobs?

I think the $100K fee is a good idea. If these H-1Bs are exceptional talent, paying $100k to employ one is truly a bargain.

seanmcdirmid 7 hours ago | parent | next [-]

What if China only charges $1k or even free for the same people? I mean, they are doing lots of AI work now also, and you can already see a few foreign programmers in Beijing, Shanghai, and Shenzhen. What is stopping Apple, Microsoft, Meta, or Amazon from doing even more work in India or other countries because they can't get the people they need in the US, or its just cheaper to setup more research jobs in Stockholm or London than it is in Seattle or San Jose?

Its not like it isn't already a work market for talent. $100k is a significant amount of friction to overcome.

cmxch 5 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Set a floor that is regionally adjusted such that the foreign ops/noncitizen cost is consistently higher no matter where. And that it also accounts for and penalizes malicious compliance/intent.

Regarding the overall problem: For the jobs that people care about keeping away from the alphabet soup provisions, the only problem is finding pliant and desperate people that take any port in a storm - not competence.

On business resistance: As for firms like Alphabet/Microsoft/Meta, they are not immune to noneconomic forces that might favor US presence and penalize non US expansion, broadly construed.

DaveExeter 5 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

I think you meant "world market".

Companies are going to be offshoring as much as they can anyway. Bits fly across borders untaxed.

If there is some foreign talent that, for example, Meta thinks will benefit their bottom line by $1M/year, an extra $100K on top of a $250K benefits package is small change!

It's a human-tariff, but it is paid by wealthy corporations.

seanmcdirmid 2 hours ago | parent [-]

Yes, world market, darn phone. They have more incentive to offshore now, $100k is some overhead but so is setting up an office overseas (~$100k/engineer).

C-x_C-f 7 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Do you think that the employee pool overall would be more or less talented without the H-1B program? What about the tails of the distributions?

rco8786 7 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

They all know that. These are politicians. They know they’re misrepresenting the data. They don’t care, they consider it to be part of the job, and they’re not wrong. That’s it.

C-x_C-f 7 hours ago | parent | next [-]

I did considered that but then went with Hanlon's razor [0]

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanlon%27s_razor

halfcat 6 hours ago | parent [-]

You seem good at using the tools of data. Stick to that. We need more people like you. Don’t let clever phrasing dim your shine.

Hanlon’s razor is in that group of things the expert class is supposed to say so the expert class doesn’t use the tools of data on their masters and attempt to convict them. Along with Occam’s razor, correlation does not imply causation, extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, data is not the plural of anecdote, let’s agree to disagree, no one can beat the market, and so on.

These all throw out the baby (Iran-Contra, etc) with the bath water (flat earth, etc), tend toward curbing scrutiny, and let someone off the hook. All of these sayings are worth considering, and red flags, at the same time.

rayiner 6 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

How are they “misrepresenting” the data? The comparison as stated shows that the foreign born share of the workforce is growing faster than the field as a whole. The point is that foreign workers are becoming a larger share of the workforce.

They didn’t say that foreign workers got more of the jobs in absolute terms than native workers. That would be truly disastrous.

chickenzzzzu 7 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Why should the number of foreign workers here be anything greater than zero?

Why specifically, should the American employee, American homebuyer/renter, American college student uniquely have to compete with the entire world, when nearly no other countries on Earth have to, especially not at this scale?

jonstewart 7 hours ago | parent | next [-]

If there such a thing as American exceptionalism, if the USA has an edge, it is immigration. Without it, our demographic future is cooked. So, that’s why.

rayiner 6 hours ago | parent | next [-]

> If there such a thing as American exceptionalism, if the USA has an edge, it is immigration

You’re conflating cause and effect. The U.S. has had high immigration because it’s exceptional, not the other way around. The U.S. GDP/capita was head and shoulders above everyone except Great Britain by 1801: https://www.reddit.com/r/dataisbeautiful/comments/bdvazr/top.... That was before even the German mass migration.

Silicon Valley arose during the 1950s and 1960, during a period of very low foreign born population in California: https://www.ppic.org/publication/immigrants-in-california/

7 hours ago | parent | prev [-]
[deleted]
ivewonyoung 6 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

A quarter of all the billion dollar+ US startups had founders who were on student/work visas at some point. If you include founders who are born of work immigrant parents that number will only go up.

Just imagine all the technology, jobs and wealth created by just SpaceX, Google, Tesla alone.

chickenzzzzu 6 hours ago | parent [-]

Retail investors can't purchase shares of SpaceX. Nearly anyone on Earth can purchase shares of Google and Tesla, and we all benefit from the knock on effects of their technology.

And yet only Americans have to compete for housing and jobs in this context.

I ask you once again, why would I lose anything if Tesla was in the UAE?

ivewonyoung 6 hours ago | parent [-]

> ask you once again, why would I lose anything if Tesla was in the UAE?

Tesla employs 120,000 people in the US, not to mention all the federal, state, local, SS and Medicare taxes paid. Tesla employees, especially early ones, also had their stock options grow huge, building US wealth and increasing taxes owed and paid.

chickenzzzzu 4 hours ago | parent [-]

That is a reasonable counter argument, however I would argue that that is no longer a benefit for the American public.

Similar to how our country effectively relocated our entire manufacturing sector to the entire world (to externalize the environmental impact), only to enforce it with gunboat diplomacy to ensure that only the profits make their way home, I don't see any benefit in having the jobs located on US soil.

Politicians will say that there is a good reason to have the jobs here, but there isn't. It is much better for everyone if we just tax the owners of the company when they exercise their shares (something probably has to be done about the loaning loophole).

America should be a nation of suburban houses, spread quite far apart from each other, of people mostly working from home. Anything else is a legitimate nuissance.

yahway 7 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

America got to the moon without H1-Bs. America doesn't need H1-Bs. America just needs a little wake up call, which the H1-Bs did. Now watch things unfold as an informed person.

C-x_C-f 7 hours ago | parent | next [-]

> America got to the moon without H1-Bs.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Paperclip

From the linked article:

> The operation played a crucial role in the establishment of NASA and the success of the Apollo missions to the Moon.

cmxch 6 hours ago | parent [-]

Those are not H1-Bs.

adgjlsfhk1 6 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

tell me you've never opened a history book...

cmxch 6 hours ago | parent [-]

You mean the part where former HP exec Carly Fiorina said “Forget the engineers”?

Jalad 8 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Bsky thread which reported a bunch of details I didn't see in other outlets https://bsky.app/profile/reichlinmelnick.bsky.social/post/3l...

ivewonyoung 6 hours ago | parent [-]

> H-1B visa holders are REQUIRED to leave the country to renew their visas every few years

This part is not exactly true. You can renew H1B indefinitely within the USA(every 3 years, need a pending Green card application from the 2nd extension onwards i.e after 6 years). However, if you leave the US for any reason you won't be able to re-enter the USA without a renewed visa stamp from a US embassy. The two exceptions are that you can visit Canada or Mexico for less than 30 days without triggering the visa stamp requirement.

Freedom2 3 hours ago | parent [-]

No, it's correct. The original comment said "to renew their visas". The visa expires on its expiration date, however the H1B status itself is extended. Hope this helps.

nonethewiser 8 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

H1-B program is exploited. They are not supposed to be hired unless there aren't Americans who can fill the role. There should be a large fee associated with it.

jonstewart 7 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Sure. But a Friday night massacre isn’t exactly a great policy fix though, n’est-ce pas?

joe_the_user 6 hours ago | parent [-]

I'd preface this by saying I'm a not fan of Trump or the direction he is aiming for in general.

But when the circumstances are that opportunistic actors have been behaving badly for many years and adjusting to small and medium changes in laws that they see coming, Friday night massacres are exactly what's needed. What would be nice (but unlikely) is a similar health care sea change.

alephnerd 7 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Find me a dozen new grads with exploit development experience or OS internals knowhow beyond a summary course.

I can do that in Tel Aviv over a week.

terminalshort 6 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Maybe don't hire new grads if you need experience for the position.

alephnerd 4 hours ago | parent [-]

The point is to highlight the skill gap. There's a reason Wiz was founded Tel Aviv and not Silicon Valley.

In a lot of technical subfields, the talent pipeline in the US is dead because of a mix of government, education, and (yes) personal apathy,

Tadpole9181 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Then you go headquarter your business and live in Tel Aviv. This situation is untenable.

alephnerd 3 hours ago | parent [-]

That's what's steadily happening, and why the pipeline crisis in cybersecurity and other segments of the tech industry is arising in the US.

The US system only worked because the US had the right mix of openness to domestic and foreign capital and talent.

A lot of people on HN and in our industry in the US need to recognize that they are competing in a global market, and need to upskill accordingly.

Just having a CS degree and knowing Leetcode isn't enough, and I'm not going to pay $150k base for an MLE who only knows how to use PyTorch wrappers and basic math, but little-to-no CUDA or Infiniband background, or for a new grad SWE to work on a CNAPP if they don't understand how eBPF and LSMs work.

And no, it is not our responsibility as businesses to incubate that talent if American admins are not helping us (though I shouted myself hoarse about this when I used to be in that space). Everything has become hyper-politicized in the US now, and that is not the kind of environment any business can operate in.

moribvndvs 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Doesn't this just encourage companies to off-shore even harder, which is arguably more damaging to US tech workers than H-1Bs? I agree that the program is routinely abused by employers, but I’m not sure punishing foreign workers for this fact is the remediation we need.

cmxch 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Just rip out the entire 1965 Immigration Act root and stem along with its follow on provisions. Then replace with a points system with citizen impact factored into the equation.

To handle the losses, have any firm and their downstream contractors and clients pay off displaced individuals many times over, with regional adjustments - such that it is cost prohibitively expensive to even think of bodyshopping people.

nis0s 8 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

If the cost benefit analysis for employers still shows that H1-Bs are cheaper, how will this offset H1-B exploitation? My guess is that this will suppress STEM wages artificially to account for paying a one-time fee for an H1-B, but hiring someone for 1+ years at that suppressed rate will be cheaper. Employers will blame AI for decrease in STEM wages, of course. A complementary solution is to add the $100k fee, and to restrict H1-B per employer per year, or something like that.

alephnerd 7 hours ago | parent [-]

In 2025, the decision isn't hiring someone on an H1B versus a citizen - the cost is mostly a wash.

The decision is hiring in the US (visa or citizen) versus hiring abroad.

Given that a large number of EMs, PMs, Directors, and even VPs are on some sort of immigration or work visa, this makes it easier to incentivize you as an employer to move some of them back to India or Czechia to open a GCC. This is what has been happening for the past 5 years now.

On top of that, vast swathes of STEM academia are dependent on H1B. You simply aren't going to find enough American citizens with a background in (say) battery chemistry to become a tenure track professor versus from Korea, Japan, or China.

Now you basically created an incentive for large swathes of junior faculty in STEM subfields to return to Asia, leading to a massive reverse brain drain.

nis0s 7 hours ago | parent [-]

> The decision is hiring in the US (visa or citizen) versus hiring abroad.

True, but there’s a balance that employers have to maintain to get some in-state advantages from local or state governments for job creation.

That said, it makes more sense for America to get trainers or professors for niche subfields than actual workers so you can create homegrown talent, not sure why that isn’t done more.

alephnerd 3 hours ago | parent [-]

> but there’s a balance that employers have to maintain to get some in-state advantages from local or state governments for job creation

True! The issue is local, state, and federal governments gives limited benefits compared to CEE countries, Israel, India, and others who roll the red carpet with multi-year tax holidays, subsidizes, and targeted hiring pipelines.

> makes more sense for America to get trainers or professors for niche subfields than actual workers so you can create homegrown talent

How? They overwhelmingly came on H1Bs as well, not O-1s.

This is why this is such a stupid approach, and is absolutely showing the hallmarks of a Stephen Miller policy. Interestingly, this seems to have overshadowed the Trump Gold Card and Platinum Card announcements (which part of me thinks was part of the reason this announcement happened).

porridgeraisin 22 minutes ago | parent [-]

> such a stupid approach

What do you think of this alternate one?

Don't make H1-B employer-specific. That way, they automatically have to pay market rates to the guy since otherwise you would sponsor his entry and he'd switch to a market rate employer immediately. This removes the "unfair" aspect of h1bs being cheaper to hire.

ajaimk 9 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Seems to be limited to H1B applicants who are outside the country. If I'm reading this correctly, it doesn't impact renewals for those in the country.

whatever1 8 hours ago | parent [-]

You cannot renew a visa (any visa) in the US. You need to exit the country and apply to a US consulate.

psidium 7 hours ago | parent [-]

Yes, but a visa stamp renewal is a visa “application” while the document that allows the application is the “petition”, which is the word used on this text and the step requiring the payment.

cvhc 7 hours ago | parent [-]

"Section 1. Restriction on Entry. (a) ... the entry into the United States..., is restricted, except for those aliens whose petitions are accompanied or supplemented by a payment of $100,000".

OK, if I consider this interpretation, which of the following do you think will apply to already-approved H-1B petitioners: 1. Existing H-1B holder can amend their already-approved petition by "supplementing a payment" to become eligible for a visa and re-entry. 2. It's not possible to amend an already-approved H-1B petition. So existing H-1B holders can never satisfy the requirement. They cannot re-enter with H-1B visa anymore. 3. This EO is not retrospective. So already-approved H-1B petitioners (with or without visa) are fine.

psidium 5 hours ago | parent [-]

I’m not not a lawyer at all and I have no real idea. My guess is that existing visas are already printed and henceforth there is no petition anymore, you have a status or visa already. Since the old petition didn’t require the payment, you don’t need to show proof of payment now. But lol if I actually know how this works, can be anyone’s guess.

My guess is that if this goes forward new h1b visas petitioned while the worker is outside the US will have a line saying “must show proof of payment” or something like that, while petitions while in the US won’t have that line on their visa stamp

jakozaur 8 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Does it apply to people who planned to start on Oct 1, 2025?

With the current system, you must apply in April if you succeed in the lottery, and then you can start in a few months in October, once per year.

Looks very uncomfortable for those who were about to relocate.

Izikiel43 8 hours ago | parent [-]

Looks like it:

a) Pursuant to sections 212(f) and 215(a) of the Immigration and Nationality Act (INA), 8 U.S.C. 1182(f) and 1185(a), the entry into the United States of aliens as nonimmigrants to perform services in a specialty occupation under section 101(a)(15)(H)(i)(b) of the INA, 8 U.S.C. 1101(a)(15)(H)(i)(b), is restricted, except for those aliens whose petitions are accompanied or supplemented by a payment of $100,000 — subject to the exceptions set forth in subsection (c) of this section. This restriction shall expire, absent extension, 12 months after the effective date of this proclamation, which shall be 12:01 a.m. eastern daylight time on September 21, 2025.

8 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]
[deleted]
utrechtNL 7 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Good. Skilled Indians/Chinese/Europeans should go back to their countries, build their own tech and compete with the US.

People are smoking if they think “talents” would still want to stay in the US given this series of policies (i.e. recent cuts/restrictions on science funding, international students, and visas) from Trump government.

This is a good time for EU to build its own digital economy.

alephnerd 7 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Pretty much. This is basically a free "Thousand Talents" program for much of the EU, India, Vietnam, Japan, South Korea, Israel, and others.

This is ridiculously stupid given how vast swathes of industries we want to redevelop need talent from our partners in the EU, Japan, Korea (still opposed to Hyundai's visa shenanigans, but two wrongs don't make a right - also interesting how HN is so positive about this but so negative about that), etc

7 hours ago | parent [-]
[deleted]
protocolture 7 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

>Good. Skilled Indians/Chinese/Europeans should go back to their countries

Agreed. Rest of the world needs to choke the USA and prevent our talent from improving the US.

Theres no reason to try and help Trump.

8 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]
[deleted]
cadamsdotcom 8 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

They do well explaining how H-1b is broken - but adding a $100k petition fee only breaks it worse.

A real fix would be fantastic.

8 hours ago | parent | next [-]
[deleted]
nonethewiser 8 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Why does it break it worse?

alephnerd 8 hours ago | parent [-]

This does nothing to stop the rise of GCCs.

In tech industry, we already began slowing down H1B hiring after COVID, and remote work only exacerbated that trend (I can't justify spending $150k plus an additional 25-35% in withholdings, medical, and benefits when I can hire 2-3 people with a similar outlay in Praha or Bangalore or Tel Aviv).

At least with H1B hiring, there was some incentive for industries like cybersecurity to keep some engineering headcount in the US. Now I have no reason not to completely offshore to Tel Aviv or Praha becuase the talent is there and not in the US.

This H1B change does nothing to solve the pipeline crisis nor does it solve offshoring (though even with a services tax, I'd be hard pressed to find the same ecosystem in the US like I can in Israel or Poland or even India for significant swaths of cybersecurity).

Finally, charging $100k per year per H1B employee means I can now justify a $1-10M investment in building a GCC abroad in CEE or India and availing tax benefits, subsidies, and tax holidays.

All this did is now incentivize me to push my portfolio companies to move hiring almost entirely abroad and choose a couple of high level PMs and EMs on H1Bs who would be open to becoming a Director of PM or Director of Engineering at a GCC abroad.

On top of that, the cream of the crop you want with a brain drain like academics in STEM fields, nurses, and doctors are sponsored on H1Bs.

America has a pipeline and skills problem in a lot of STEM fields and subfields, and coding bootcamp grads aren't going to cut it.

Cutting down on processing abuse by consultancies is something everyone can get behind, but this is literally the stupidest way to approach that problem.

cmxch 5 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Then make the GCC itself unprofitable to operate as an extractive force and the costs unable to be mitigated as an extractive entity.

Your GCCs will be paying for the direct training of the US side people you overlooked and essentially a generous and well backed “pension” for the few that can’t be made current.

Unless you’re helping to fix the pipeline problem you allege exists, you’re expanding the problem space.

ojbyrne 7 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

What’s a GCC?

alephnerd 7 hours ago | parent [-]

Global Capability Center - think offshoring, except now you have a VP or GM assigned at that office, and a couple of P/L owning PMs and Eng Directors and actual IP being created.

Basically, back office work offshoring like in the 2000s is dead. Now entire revenue generating or complex IP product lines are being produced by offshore teams.

GCP's Security and K8s portfolio is a good example of that or that team at Facebook's Infra Silicon team in Bangalore.

ojbyrne 2 hours ago | parent [-]

One personal pet peeve I have is using obscure (and in this case, non-Google-able) acronyms. Its easy to just give the full name once, then use the acronym after.