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GuB-42 4 days ago

KDE is, as its name implies, a desktop environment. And it hasn't been "infected" by the "mobile" virus.

I often wondered why desktop UIs became so terrible somewhere in the 2010s and I don't want to attribute it to laziness, greed, etc... People have been lazy and greedy since people existed, there must have been something else. And I think that mobile is the answer.

UI designers are facing a really hard problem, if not impossible. Most apps nowadays have desktop and mobile variants, and you want some consistency, as you don't want users to relearn everything when switching variants. But mobile platforms, with their small touchscreens are completely different from desktop platforms with their large screens, keyboards and mice. So what do you do?

In addition to mobile, you often need to target the browser too, so: native desktop, native mobile, browser desktop, browser mobile. And then you add commercial consideration like cost, brand identity, and the idea that if you didn't change the UI, you didn't change anything. Commercial considerations have always been a thing, but the multiplication of platforms made it worse, prompting for the idea of running everything in a browser, and having the desktop inferface just being the mobile interface with extra stuff.

bigstrat2003 4 days ago | parent | next [-]

> But mobile platforms, with their small touchscreens are completely different from desktop platforms with their large screens, keyboards and mice. So what do you do?

You keep the UIs separate. Dumbing down desktop UIs to mobile capabilities is just as bad of a design as it was when people tried to jam a desktop UI into mobile. You have to play to the strengths of the platform you are on, not limit each one based on the other. Yes, it's more work, but it's well worth it to have a product which is actually good.

wavemode 4 days ago | parent | next [-]

Web designers have been having this same debate for 15 years - what many call "mobile-first design" is actually just worsening the experience of desktop users so that things look nicer on phones and the makers don't have to do double the design work.

hirvi74 4 days ago | parent | next [-]

> the makers don't have to do double the design work.

Attitudes like this sometimes make me regret going in to software engineering. I understand time may be of the essence in some instances, but I feel like software engineering has lost much of its craftsmanship, and it's now just gluing over-engineered and poorly designed shitware together. At least, in the Web Dev world -- maybe other subfields have faired better?

pjmlp 3 days ago | parent | next [-]

It gets even worse, when doing projects where you are basically glueing SaaS products together, the common trend in enterprise consulting.

guappa 3 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

https://xkcd.com/1988/

gspencley 3 days ago | parent | prev [-]

> but I feel like software engineering has lost much of its craftsmanship

It's not just software. I'm very pro-business / pro-capitalism but I will happily agree that an omnipresent business pressure is to reduce costs and get products and services to market rapidly.

My wife and I bought an antique store this year, and we're converting it into a small live theatre with a magic (stage magic) retail store up front. We are pouring our hearts and soul into this and are trying to bring a high degree of craftsmanship into the venture. We're taking queues from Walt Disney World and want you to feel like you've stepped into a completely different world when you step inside our doors.

Yet now that we're running out of money and things have taken way longer than we had estimated, we have to cut scope. We have to start thinking "What needs to be done today in order for us to open" vs "What can we defer and iterate on and do later?" What are the "nice to haves" and what are the "must haves."

That's business and you see enshitification in all industries. We can see this in everything from clothing to furniture to product packaging. The incentive is always to try and deliver things to market faster and cheaper and this necessitates making cuts. Craftsmanship is a luxury that we all pine for. And there are small mom & pop shops (us included) that try to deliver craftsmanship. But the market for high-cost products with high-craftsmanship is niche.

Software is largely targeting the mass market just like clothing and furniture - other examples where you've seen "high craftsmanship" in the past but these days we get mass produced disposable garbage. It's tempting to say "the good old days" but people had a lot less and that high-craftsmanship furniture was often passed down from one generation to another because it's not like people could typically afford that stuff. It was that people had to save, DIY more, own less and count on hand-me-downs.

hirvi74 3 days ago | parent [-]

> omnipresent business pressure is to reduce costs and get products and services to market rapidly.

Sure. In many instances, software is just a means to an end. Software is usually not the business itself. So, I understand there has to be balance at some point. In fact, I think it's dangerous to sometimes reinvent the wheel -- like rolling your own auth system. I rather go with a well tested and trusted solution.

> I bought an antique store

I'm jealous. I would love something like this.

Are/were you a developer? If yes, then I am curious about one thing. Does your work towards your store bring more or less fulfillment than your dev life? I went into the field hoping to find passion and to strive for some sense of glory that comes from craftsmanship, but I learned quickly there isn't much passion left and there is absolutely no glory. Though in my mind, programming does not equal software engineering. The people writing KDE are programmers. The person working for a company is a software engineer.

> We have to start thinking "What needs to be done today in order for us to open" vs "What can we defer and iterate on and do later?" What are the "nice to haves" and what are the "must haves."

I just had this conversation at work today lol.

> Software is largely targeting the mass market just like clothing and furniture - other examples where you've seen "high craftsmanship" in the past but these days we get mass produced disposable garbage. It's tempting to say "the good old days" but people had a lot less

You are absolutely correct. However, maybe I am just consumed by ignorance, but I think that is the world I want to live in, you know? I watched a YouTube video about a traditional Japanese swordsmith. He runs the only remaining school left in Japan. He follows the exact same process that has been used for something like over 700 years. He has a few apprentices, but nothing is written down. It's all passed down from generation to generation via hands-on work and word of mouth.

For software, that would be beyond unrealistic, but I think there is something utterly beautiful about getting lost in some kind of project and pouring 100% of oneself into their work. You know, to be apart of something much bigger than oneself?

I think about the KDE developers per the thread topic. KDE is likely highly useful and an act for charity for their fellow Linux users. KDE accomplishes what it sought to solve. However, most users will never know or understand what into making KDE, why some choices were made and not others, etc.. As long as KDE works, many users probably won't even think about KDE at all. If I were to install KDE right now, I could tell you if it works or not. I cannot tell you if KDE was written well just by using it, unless overt issues were present. I would truly have no idea about the quality without looking at the source code.

Though, I guess my fundamental point is that you are correct about everything you wrote. I do not disagree with any of it. I am in my early 30s, and I guess I am already jaded haha. This is what "work" and "life" are mostly about? This is how I provide value to society? I just push little plastic buttons on a device and the little electrons flowing through the device make the screen change colors. I went to college just for all this? Don't get me wrong, I love programming, but man, the "adult" or "business" world is just so utterly... fucking boring and unfulfilling haha. Do you know what I mean?

thescriptkiddie 4 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

this reminds me of something i've observed. it seems like there is a general trend in software of doing things that look good (either in an ad or in a sprint review) rather than things that feel good to use. one example among many is nvidia's frame generation feature, which makes 60 fps look like 120 fps when you're watching somebody else play, but feel like 30 fps when you're the one playing.

seec 3 days ago | parent [-]

Image and projection of that image is very important for most humans. You just need to look at how some people dress in order to "look good" even though it often requires them to make some ridiculous compromises on confort.

gspencley 3 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

It's not so much double the design work, it's double the code maintenance.

I'm of two minds on this. I agree with your complaint that "mobile first" (or just responsiveness in general) has tended to reduce the pleasantness of the Desktop experience. As a web application developer, the idea of having to maintain two separate codebases - one for mobile and one for desktop - is a big "no thank-you." So responsiveness tends to win on maintenance overhead.

einpoklum 3 days ago | parent [-]

> It's not so much double the design work, it's double the code maintenance.

Well, of course it is: Different UI, different UI code. If that's problem, the developers should not have both a mobile and a desktop app in the first place.

> has tended to reduce the pleasantness of the Desktop

understatement of the year :-) ... it often hampers functionality, significantly, and makes the experience rather painful.

seec 3 days ago | parent | prev [-]

The moment the "mobile first" trend appeared, I knew it was wrong and we were certainly fucked for many things. Plenty of websites are just bad because of this nonsense. And since now most people don't even use a computer for their web browsing, most websites are bad for computer browsing by default.

The insanity of it is that many websites push their mobile apps to use them. So, you get shitty mobile sites that ask you to use their app on mobile and are bad on desktop because of the stupid development philosophy (including poor information density and oversized interface for big touch targets).

The whole point of the first iPhone web browser was that you could actually use most typical websites without any effort on their part and it was good enough. Because of the display size and navigation effort required it wasn't the most confortable but the more time passes the more I believe that was kind of the point and almost a "feature" in itself.

We got there because people are glued to their phone, and sadly it's not even a good tool for efficient web browsing (it's useful for quick information gathering but that's it).

dsego 4 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

They are probably planning on converging the two platforms together soon. There are rumors of new macbooks having touch screens. You can imagine that with the Tahoe interface getting additional padding and looking more like iPadOS it's already planned that the future of computing will be hybrid devices.

9029 4 days ago | parent | next [-]

I don't know how to feel about that. To me it sounds like an awful direction for the desktop experience on macOS, but on the other hand iPads are currently held back by iPadOS

soulofmischief 4 days ago | parent | prev [-]

To be fair, a touchscreen is the one thing I miss moving from my thinkpad to my apple silicon macbook.

II2II 4 days ago | parent | next [-]

Everyone will have different opinions on the matter. My Lenovo has a touch screen, but I hardly ever use it because I forget that it is there. Likewise, it is Wacom compatible and I was as far as picking up the stylus for it. Hardly ever use it. For the most part, I prefer to interact with computers via keyboard.

Different people like interacting with computers in different ways, unfortunately, this one size fits all philosophy that permeates the tech sector creates a lot of tension because those ways of interacting are not necessarily compatible with each other.

soulofmischief a day ago | parent | next [-]

I'm a web developer, and being able to simultaneously test both touch input and traditional KBM without switching contexts. It's also just nice to have and relatively cheap to implement, even if I only use it on occasion outside of development. It allows me to engage with any medium in the best way possible.

lmm 4 days ago | parent | prev [-]

> Different people like interacting with computers in different ways, unfortunately, this one size fits all philosophy that permeates the tech sector creates a lot of tension because those ways of interacting are not necessarily compatible with each other.

A touchscreen doesn't detract if you don't use it though. I use my laptop's touchscreen/stylus pretty much exclusively for Japanese writing practice, the rest of the time it's just a regular laptop, but I'd be very sad to not have that feature when I need it.

sirwhinesalot 3 days ago | parent | next [-]

This would normally be the case but many touchscreen drivers love to glitch out (specially lenovo's) and disabling them is almost impossible with windows updates constantly re-enabling things.

If not for that I would 100% agree it is a nice to have.

dsego 3 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I don't know if it has been improved but I had one xps with touch screen, the lid was thicker, the screen had more glare, it was using more battery and there was a visible gray mesh, like a veil covering it if you looked close enough. One other possible annoyance is accidental touches, no chance of that if the screen doesn't have touch capability.

guappa 3 days ago | parent [-]

I have an x86 tablet and the screen seems normal although touch

oneeyedpigeon 3 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

For me, it just feels like a huge waste of money for something I would never use; I assume the touch screen tech bumps the price up a bit. Of course, if you have even an occasional use for touchscreen on a laptop, your mileage is already varying.

serf 3 days ago | parent | prev [-]

>A touchscreen doesn't detract if you don't use it though.

in a perfect world. in the real world it's an added cost-to-repair, another driver stack to worry about, and a loss of nits/lumens for no good reason.

hirvi74 4 days ago | parent | prev [-]

Are you the type to be bothered by fingerprints on screens? I am that type, I have great reservations about a touchscreen laptop. Though, I cannot deny how awesome it would be, conceptually.

throwaway0236 3 days ago | parent [-]

I think there are finger sleeves that you can put on to avoid that.

A random example from Amazon (never tried it myself):

https://www.amazon.com/PXIRQ-Sleeves-Touchscreen-Sensitive-B...

amatecha 4 days ago | parent | prev [-]

Right? It's blatantly obvious, but apparently a 3.5 trillion-dollar-market-cap corporation has apparently forgotten this simple concept. It's so disappointing how far Apple has fallen, in terms of usability of their software.

xgkickt 4 days ago | parent [-]

At least Apple still allows the user to reposition the dock/taskbar.

bee_rider 4 days ago | parent | next [-]

That seems like a pretty low bar, is there any window manager that doesn’t have that sort of basic configurability?

Linux window managers are mostly made by volunteers, so I’m not picky at all. But, locking the dock and taskbar in place, if anything, seems like extra work. Why would anybody do extra work to make their window manager worse?

skirmish 4 days ago | parent | next [-]

Windows 11 has stupid unchangeable defaults that keep getting worse with each service pack. To survive in a Windows VM I run, the first thing I install is always a horrible hack to restore flexibility: [1].

[1] https://github.com/valinet/ExplorerPatcher/wiki/All-features

jm4 4 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

GNOME. You have to install an extension to get a dock at all. Almost nobody runs vanilla GNOME because it's missing basic things. They refuse to have a system tray. I don't particularly like the system tray, but that doesn't change the fact that some apps continue to run the background when you quit them by closing the window. Up until recently, you had to install a system tray extension so you could properly quit programs like Steam. Finally, the GNOME developers added functionality where you can see background apps and close them, but it's hidden behind a few clicks. A clipboard manager is another one. KDE includes it by default. GNOME? There's an extension for that. And the problem with extensions is they always break every single time GNOME is updated.

reissbaker 4 days ago | parent | next [-]

This generally isn't my experience with GNOME.

You have to install an extension to get a dock at all.

No, there's an auto-hiding dock built-in. Pressing the Super key acts like better version of Apple's Expose feature: it shows the windows you have open, auto-opens the dock, and focuses the application launcher search bar so you can just start typing and launch an app.

You had to install a system tray extension

I'm sure you needed to at some point, but (as you mention), that's no longer the case: it's built in by default.

clipboard manager

If you mean clipboard history... That's true. Although macOS doesn't have a built-in clipboard history viewer either, and I never particularly missed having one. There are plenty of GNOME extensions with clipboard history if you want one.

Generally speaking I like GNOME much more than KDE, since GNOME's gesture support is much better than KDE's. I also personally dislike Windows-style infinitely-nesting-menu taskbars, which is what KDE uses, whereas GNOME is more macOS-like (although it has its own, IMO slightly cleaner style... And of course, it's much more modifiable than macOS).

jorvi 4 days ago | parent | next [-]

> No, there's an auto-hiding dock built-in. Pressing the Super key acts like better version of Apple's Expose feature: it shows the windows you have open, auto-opens the dock, and focuses the application launcher search bar so you can just start typing and launch an app.

So, not a Dock.

People don't want their whole desktop to fly everywhere and zoom out when they just want to quickly switch or launch an application with the mouse. They just want to mouse over the bottom of their screen and click.

Same for launching an application via keyboard / doing a calculation / finding an emoji. People just want something akin to Spotlight (think uLauncher on Linux). Something lightweight that pops over and allows them to quickly do the thing, without a lot of visual clutter happening and then happening again in reverse.

samtheDamned 19 hours ago | parent [-]

> People don't want their whole desktop to fly everywhere and zoom out when they just want to quickly switch or launch an application with the mouse. They just want to mouse over the bottom of their screen and click.

for switching between programs, gnome is designed around workspaces instead of stacking and covering windows so you aren't expected to fly into the expose view to switch apps you just swipe to the side to your other program (or scroll in the corner with the mouse, or press meta+alt+left or right).

For launching programs just press meta and type the first couple letters of it's name. This is exactly the same how I open software on windows, and imo it's quicker due to not taking my hands off the keyboard.

I think it's silly to look at a new desktop and be mad at it for not behaving exactly like other desktops. If you grew up using computers that behaved like gnome you'd likely be just as uncomfortable with a stacking based desktop like windows.

abhinavk 4 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> No, there's an auto-hiding dock built-in. Pressing the Super key acts like better version of Apple's Expose feature: it shows the windows you have open, auto-opens the dock, and focuses the application launcher search bar so you can just start typing and launch an app.

It either requires using a keyboard or moving your mouse to the opposite direction of where the dock appears.

prettymuchnoone 3 days ago | parent | prev [-]

bit unrelated, but the newest version of macOS (Tahoe) does now have a clipboard manager

wkat4242 4 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

They also hide menus under annoying hamburger menus meaning an extra click every time. And have huge fat window handles taking up space for no reason which you can't change. Probably nice if you have a touchscreen but I don't.

Ps gnome doesn't even have a clipboard manager? Wow I use this every day.

jm4 4 days ago | parent [-]

Nope, no clipboard manager. There’s a nice extension called pano with a bunch of ridiculous dependencies that’s loaded with features. The one built into KDE is good enough for me.

GNOME looks great, but it’s just so damn frustrating to use. It’s such a weird combination of attention to detail and a focus on usability while completely missing the mark in other areas. I don’t even mind the intended workflow. That’s fine. It’s the rough edges like the hamburger menus you mentioned, extra clicks, inability to change things I expect to be able to change, etc. You have to install gnome-tweaks just to change the font.

I wouldn’t even mind the extensions either if they didn’t break during every update. Best case scenario is you have to re-enable the extension, log out and log back in. Worst case is it doesn’t work anymore and now you’re missing important functionality that the developers couldn’t be bothered to include.

pjmlp 3 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

GNOME wasn't like this, I favoured GNOME during the whole Gtk+ vs Qt licensing wars, and even wrote an article to The C/C++ Users Journal as kind of advocacy for Gtkmm.

Eventually with their desired to push JavaScript all over the place, instead of improving Vala, the whole desktop redesign, and the issues that features standard in GNOME 1.0 are nowadays the extension mess you mention, made me don't care any longer.

For a while I moved into Unity, then XFCE, and then nothing, as my Linux usage now is constrained to headless (server/containers), or the consumer distributions of WebOS and Android.

However if I ever going back to having a Linux desktop, it will surely be a decision between everything else except GNOME.

Lio 3 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I can’t speak for anyone else but I’m quite happy without a system tray.

Having everything behind the meta button works well IMHO.

serf 3 days ago | parent | prev [-]

The whole point of the extension system was to get the base install smaller and more minimized for people that don't need the feature -- I think that's an entirely fair tradeoff given how easy extension installs have been early on in gnome3.

blooalien 4 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> That seems like a pretty low bar, is there any window manager that doesn’t have that sort of basic configurability?

I heard rumours that Win 11 was makin' folks jump through hoops to move the taskbar anywhere other than left or right along the bottom. Personally, I ain't used Windows since Win 7; (The last really decent / tolerable Windows), and even back then I was already dual-booting with Linux.

wkat4242 4 days ago | parent [-]

Not jumping through hoops, you just can't put it at the sides anymore

GreenWatermelon 4 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Windows. Windows removed the task bar positioning feature in Windows 11.

oblio 4 days ago | parent [-]

People complain about that but I've been using Windows for 25+ years including working in tech almost exclusively on Windows desktops and laptops for 20+ years across about 10 companies and the amount of times I've seen a Windows taskbar be placed anywhere except at the bottom can be counted on one hand.

I'm fairly sure it's one of those features used by 0.0001% of the user base but probably 95% of those 200 000 users are techies so every forum is filled with their complaints :-)

account42 3 days ago | parent | next [-]

The problem with that attitude is that while niche features might be used by a small percentage of the user base, for every feature its a different subset. If you remove all niche features you will end up with software that is worse for a large portion of your users.

This is the reason why telemetry has negative value in the hands of the average developer. You can make all kinds of logically sounding conclusions from it but they are still wrong.

wolvesechoes 3 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

That's the thing you need to keep mind when reading anything on HN. Otherwise you would believe no one uses Windows (mostly because of taskbar thing) or Firefox is just unusable because it is unavoidable you constantly keep 1234 tabs open.

lmm 4 days ago | parent | prev [-]

Yeah. More relevantly I suspect that more people move the taskbar accidentally than deliberately - more than once I've seen a relative have it on the left or the top and ask how to put it back.

MiddleEndian 4 days ago | parent | prev [-]

The taskbar can only go on the bottom in Windows 11 lol

johnisgood 3 days ago | parent [-]

"Guys, right now users can configure the positioning of the taskbar. We should remove it! Just hardcode it to the bottom!"

walthamstow 3 days ago | parent | prev [-]

What's mad is how few people do it. You'd think on a 16:10 people would want to make the most of the 10.

noisem4ker 4 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

KDE does have a convergent UI framework, though. It's called Kirigami, and I think several KDE apps use it to also get a mobile version. Perhaps it's more about doing things well and compatibly with the mobile presentation, just not "mobile first" (which often factually implies "and desktop never").

dotancohen 4 days ago | parent | next [-]

I develop a Qt app that needs a mobile version, though I've never done mobile development before. I use Qt for the desktop app specifically because a I'm a long time KDE user. What does convergent mean in this context? What would Kirigami bring to a potential Android application?

Thanks

heavyset_go 4 days ago | parent [-]

He's talking about MauiKit, which is a superset of Kirigami.

https://mauikit.org/

You get some nice predefined widgets to use with QML, but you also potentially have to build Maui/Kirigami against the platforms you deploy to, and it's a C++ & QML project with its own build platform.

Citizen_Lame 3 days ago | parent | next [-]

Is MauiKit still maintained, seeing even the main links on website don't work. Like MauiKit Documentation?

heavyset_go 3 days ago | parent [-]

No idea, but I think the maintainers are available on IRC or whatever KDE is using for chat these days if you want to ask them.

dotancohen 4 days ago | parent | prev [-]

Thank you

account42 3 days ago | parent | prev [-]

Everything written in QML looks extremely out of place on the desktop, this is very much not an example of doing it well. You're right though that the infection has also reached KDE.

rubymamis 3 days ago | parent | next [-]

I wrote the block editor of my note-taking app[1] in QML, I hope this can show it's not QML that makes it a out of place - it's the care for aesthetics that developers put into the app. I also wrote a blog post on the subject if you're curious[2].

[1] https://get-notes.com

[2] https://rubymamistvalove.com/block-editor

noisem4ker 3 days ago | parent | prev [-]

Settings modules (KCMs) have been gradually rewritten in QML since a while ago, I think. Do they look "extremely out of place" to you? I personally couldn't spot them out. Efforts have been spent making QtQuick controls look the same as their QtWidgets counterparts.

bitwize 4 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Yes, companies were lazy and greedy even way back when. But there are a number of facts that come into play when it comes to UI being much shittier today:

1. Personal computers before the 21st century were really kind of shit. Let alone mobile devices.

2. Software was largely a product that people paid for. It even came in boxes.

3. Software vendors were usually in a highly competitive environment. They had to deliver value for money if they didn't want to get eaten alive.

This meant that the software had to both work on the limited resources of 1990s shitty computers—limited storage, limited speed, limited display colors and resolution, etc.—and be useful to the end user. So companies were kept a lot more honest in terms of UI design. Circumstances forced them to deliver functional, efficient UIs. These days, our computers are fairly powerful and companies are in the business of selling services (or eyeballs to advertisers) rather than software. The user-facing software itself is a loss leader, and if making it a shitty Electron app, or desktop-mobile "convergence", helps save development costs, companies will do it.

aucisson_masque 4 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Ever heard of plasma mobile ? That’s your KDE on mobile.

And windows which is horrendous doesn’t have a mobile version, at least not something people know about.

You have an interesting theory but I think it doesn’t hold when you take these 2 facts into consideration.

account42 3 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> Most apps nowadays have desktop and mobile variants, and you want some consistency, as you don't want users to relearn everything when switching variants.

I don't think anyone actually asks for this. The driving factor seems to be saving cost/effort by making only one design with extremely minor adjustments at best. It used to be that desktop was the main target now its mobile.

The consistency I want is between different applications on the same system but barely anyone cares about that - and many developers actively want their programs to stand out.

guappa 3 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

But… I use kde on my tablet. There's a few programs that are designed with this use in mind. For example: alligator, angelfish, kasts. Dolphin works really well too.

fluidcruft 4 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

You probably mean tablets/touch input, not mobile. There was a time when things like iPad and Surface were going to dominate. iOS won that space with Android still limping along. Windows devices haven't managed to survive really and Surface seems to be retreating to laptop form. Frankly the SOC hardware universe seems to be a real technical challenge. Frankly, even Microsoft gave up trying to improve the phone hardware situation.

freeopinion 4 days ago | parent [-]

I think the small form factor of mobile is more relevant than touch, although touch is also a significant factor. App design is forced to change radically to be usable at all on tiny screens. Indeed, touch is a result of the tiny aspect of mobile.

pixelready 4 days ago | parent [-]

Mobile form factor and touch inputs are pretty inseparable, and are so different from desktop + pointer. A lot of subtle pain points get missed because people tend to focus on one over the other. So many desktop patterns rely on hover interactions. Touch targets need to be big enough for beefy fingers (which will then cover the thing being touched). Gesture is considered normal on touch devices but not pointer ones. Reading distance differences between mobile devices and desktop ones impacts typography. And that’s just a few basic UX concerns all before you get into the weeds of WCAG and other accessibility standards.

TL;DR - your designer needs a hug

dismalaf 4 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> KDE is, as its name implies, a desktop environment. And it hasn't been "infected" by the "mobile" virus.

Who do you think has been "infected" by the "mobile" virus? KDE's only real competitor is way more keyboard focused than KDE...

marginalia_nu 4 days ago | parent | next [-]

I assume they're referring to Gnome. Despite primarily being aimed at desktop users, it's got hamburger menus everywhere[1], and a design that constantly makes trade-offs that benefit a touch-screen at the expense of keyboard-and-mouse users.

[1] Hamburger menus are designed to make efficient use of a small vertical display where horizontal screen space is a limited commodity, which just is not the case at all for a large horizontal computer monitor. On a large horizontal display, they're a straight downgrade since you need to click the menu to see what's inside it, which makes action discovery harder. This click is also added to a lot of actions so they add more friction to almost all interactions.

everdrive 4 days ago | parent | next [-]

>and a design that constantly makes trade-offs that benefit a touch-screen at the expense of keyboard-and-mouse users.

And this is true despite the fact that a vanishingly small number of users actually use a touchscreen with gnome.

foresto 4 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

They also look like a gripper widget: a small square that can be dragged around in order to move the item on which it appears, commonly used for for positioning toolbars or re-ordering list items. Because of this, they have added a bit of confusion to user interface conventions.

marginalia_nu 4 days ago | parent | next [-]

Modern monochrome line-art icons are an entirely separate trainwreck to be honest. They're incredibly difficult to parse and distinguish.

It very much feels like we've fallen into the same trap medieval handwriting did https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minim_(palaeography)#/media/Fi... -- building designs around what looks aesthetically uniform and cool rather than what is easy to parse and use.

hulitu 4 days ago | parent | next [-]

> They're incredibly difficult to parse and distinguish

And the fact that they are changed every couple of years, doesn't help either.

seec 3 days ago | parent | prev [-]

Indeed. It's all fashion nowadays. It's a form of aestheticism which I believe is closely linked to religiousness. There is a lot to develop but you can already observe than a lot of people have an approach to technology that isn't too far from the approach to "god" related things.

marginalia_nu 2 days ago | parent | prev [-]

Just noticed Reddit uses an oddly placed hamburger menu icon to signify the action of clossing the navigation sidebar.

https://imgur.com/ZjBZhE1

niam 4 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I must admit I don't understand this critique. I barely use a pointing device at all to navigate Gnome—mice included.

Supposing I did, the only hamburger menus I can think of contain lesser-important functions of each app, like seeing the version/build number, or certain settings. I'm not sure I want something like a "See hidden files" ticker occupying screen real estate forever when I could just set it once in an accessory menu.

I question whether these critiques would evaporate if, instead of the three horizontal bars, Gnome instead used a gear icon or something, and turned their contents into a pop-up window rather than a popover element.

marginalia_nu 4 days ago | parent | next [-]

Traditionally you'd put that in a menu still, just a horizontal one that displays the top version of the hierarchy. This allows you to skip one click, and doesn't significantly eat into the ample screen space.

Perhaps the biggest problem with the hamburger menu is that there is absolutely zero convention for what you put in there, or in which order. You don't know what you'll find in the menu unless you click it. With the old top menu, there were a set of conventions for this; roughly where specific options went, and in which order, and even which hotkeys you'd press to activate the menus. This means that even in an application you were completely unfamiliar with (even hideously complex ones such as an IDE or 3d modelling software), you could fairly easily navigate the application.

tadfisher 4 days ago | parent [-]

I like the hamburger menus, because they are usually one-level deep and contain very few items.

I cannot tell you how many times I want to go into an app's settings, and it takes longer than 20 seconds; some have it in File, some in Edit, others in random menus like "Tools". Further still, the damned menu item itself could be named Settings, Preferences, Options, whatever. Even further, looking at Gimp here, Preferences is one of 25 menu items that I need to scan through. This is not good UX, this is Stockholm Syndrome.

Contrast with Gnome apps: Hamburger -> Preferences, invariably, never takes longer than three seconds to find it.

pndy 4 days ago | parent [-]

Hamburger menu is a good solution for simple and small desktop apps but it's not a good choice to use it for anything complex.

There's this Pinta image editor that since its initial release offered standard menus - for years it looked nearly identical to Paint.NET on which is partially based. In January devs switched to GTK4/libadwaita; new 3.0 release replaced menus with combined hamburger menu which of course cannot be decoupled in any way and which make advanced editing annoying. There's more clicking to do anything unless you decide to learn all shortcuts. And this "learn shortcuts" is quite common answer to hamburger menu complains.

tadfisher 4 days ago | parent | next [-]

I just installed Pinta to check it out. That implementation is just bad, you are not supposed to just migrate your menu bar into submenus under the hamburger menu.

If I were to assist with their design, I would eliminate everything that already has a headerbar icon or an on-screen affordance; so most of Files, Edit, View, and Layers is taken care of.

The stuff that remains:

- Quit: superfluous, not present in Gnome apps

- View: borrow the Ephiphany (gnome-web) zoom controls, move Grid, Show/Hide, and Ruler units into a preferences dialog

- Add-ins: Move to a preferences dialog

- Window is useless, they have tabs

- Help can stay

So no surprise that the laziest implementation of a hamburger menu is not good.

pndy 4 days ago | parent [-]

It's kinda funny how Pinta changed while Paint.NET remains same with just minor tweaks to the interface. Luckily devs there never considered utilizing ribbon interface...

In the end I swapped from Pinta to Gimp and Krita because I couldn't stand that interface

dminik 3 days ago | parent [-]

Tbh, at this point I would pay for paint.NET on Linux.

Pinta is interesting, but the UI is terrible. Did we really have to remove the resize handles? They're there when adding shapes, but not when manipulating pixels/selection? Half the options I need being hidden in a hamburger menu isn't great either.

Gimp is gimp. I don't need Photoshop. And I don't want a Photoshop level of a learning curve.

Krita is interesting, but it seems to be aimed at drawing. I struggled to copy the color code from an image. By default my eyes are drawn to the massive advanced color selector on the right, but it's a trap. You actually need the tiny color selector in the top bar. It shouldn't be this hard.

I need a subset of image manipulation features in my work and each tool has a different one.

dismalaf 4 days ago | parent | prev [-]

While Pinta uses (and abuses) GTK4, it has nothing to do with Gnome.

Inkscape is also a GTK app that follows Gnome guidelines, and every menu and tool is out in the open. No "hamburger" menus anywhere.

dminik 3 days ago | parent [-]

I was under the impression that Inkscape explicitly doesn't follow the gnome guidelines.

That's why every few months, there's a proposal to redesign it which trades usability for minimalism. Here's one I pulled from a random Google search:

https://gitlab.com/inkscape/ux/-/issues/236

dismalaf 3 days ago | parent [-]

https://wiki.inkscape.org/wiki/Inkscape_invariants

They claim it's one of the cornerstones of their project. Who am I to argue.

Personally, I like how functional Inkscape's UI is AND how minimal Files is, for example..

Delk 4 days ago | parent | prev [-]

> Supposing I did, the only hamburger menus I can think of contain lesser-important functions of each app

gEdit places almost everything in the hamburger menu; opening and saving files have dedicated buttons but for example find/replace is behind the burger, as is "save as". It may not matter much if you use keyboard shortcuts (ctrl+f is pretty common for find and I never try to look for it in the menu) but one might still expect a GUI to allow its features to be easily accessed without the use of a keyboard. I don't think the mix of a few dedicated buttons and a single hamburger menu is necessarily good for discoverability either.

The Image Viewer puts file management and image rotating in the hamburger menu. Oddly enough, other image editing options are available in a separate editing mode that's accessed via its own dedicated button. Also, although file management features are behind the hamburger menu, for some reason image properties are behind a dedicated button.

In both cases the only reason the hamburger menus aren't more populated is because there just isn't that much functionality in either app to begin with.

Evince (the document viewer) also puts almost everything in the hamburger menu -- although in that case, if a traditional menu bar were used instead of the hamburger, most of its functions would probably only be split between "file" and "view" menus or something along those lines.

I'm not sure if those apps are still Gnome defaults but they're some of the examples of what I'd consider somewhat poorly considered use of the hamburger menu.

Outside of Gnome, the new UI in JetBrains IDEs has switched to hiding typical menu bar menus behind a hamburger menu button. I honestly don't understand that decision at all: the menus are still the same, they just require an additional click to access, and since the selection of available menus is only revealed after clicking the button, you can only start scanning for the menu you're looking for after the reveal. While separate from free software desktop design, the new UI in those IDEs is another example of what I would also consider mobile-influenced degradation of desktop UIs -- and a particularly weird one at that.

fluidcruft 4 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Hamburger menus are also useful for things that otherwise would be behind a right-click. I personally have not encountered a good replacement for right-click in touch UIs.

marginalia_nu 4 days ago | parent | next [-]

That's rarely how they are used though, much more often they're used to replace the horizontal top menu bar.

tadfisher 4 days ago | parent | next [-]

They are for rarely-used actions. The corollary is that frequently-used actions are surfaced directly in the header bar instead of buried in menus. This is almost universally good. I say "almost" because content creation applications have so many actions that a menu bar sometimes makes sense; I'm thinking in particular of Inkscape with three sides of the window occupied by icons and a bizarre hamburger icon in the bottom of the right panel for some reason.

fluidcruft 4 days ago | parent | prev [-]

I don't disagree, but I think that's another reason they exist beyond screen real estate on mobile. Context menus take no screen space, but they don't play nice with touch.

marginalia_nu 4 days ago | parent [-]

There are plenty of alternative paradigms on touch interfaces, both two finger tap (on capable devices) as well as side-swipe are used to bring up menus that are as contextful (or more) than the burger menu.

blooalien 4 days ago | parent [-]

"Long-tap" (tap and hold for a second) is another right-click alternative I've seen used to great effect on touch interfaces.

fluidcruft 3 days ago | parent [-]

It works sometimes but it seems like drag me and it's really awkward when something can/should be both dragged or right clicked.

naasking 4 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Touch and hold is fine as a right click.

ahartmetz 4 days ago | parent [-]

But it barely exists anymore. It was common in early Android, not anymore. I think the reason was bad discoverability... which is true. But not having the functionality is worse.

naasking 4 days ago | parent [-]

Agreed!

3 days ago | parent | prev [-]
[deleted]
vitorgrs 3 days ago | parent | prev [-]

KDE changed their design to include hamburger menu. Even KDE's Terminal have a "hamburger" menu.

handedness 4 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

The GGP's comparison was KDE vs. macOS, so that's the most charitable interpretation I can think of.

The comparison also holds. With every major release macOS has become more like iOS and iPadOS much more so than iOS and iPadOS have become like macOS.

It's a shift I loathe, but Apple has a much harder time selling Macs to iDevice owners than the other way around. It's an understandable and maybe even unavoidable shift for Apple to make, much as it will drive a small number of die-hards elsewhere.

fl0ki 4 days ago | parent [-]

As someone who does not use Stage Manager, I don't find that the other ways macOS has become more like iOS were, to me, bad ways. The most notable changes I find were that the Settings app became far more organized and consistent, and the Control Center has tons of convenient shortcuts with a very high level of customization.

In fact, Control Center is currently less customizable than iOS because you've been able to fully rearrange the controls on iOS for an entire year now. If anything, it could stand to be more like iOS in that regard, though it's not a huge deal either way.

I don't particularly use widgets much either, but I never felt their inclusion was a net negative, they're just not as useful as other interfaces already available on macOS.

One thing I'll definitely cede though: having some "macOS" apps actually be iOS apps, like Home, is weird not just because the UI design is unusual but also because there's been no attempt to make standard desktop hotkeys work, not even Esc.

chipotle_coyote 4 days ago | parent [-]

Good news, maybe: macOS 26's Control Center is much more like iOS in that way, and they've also added an API that will let third-party apps offer their own control center widgets.

j1elo 4 days ago | parent | prev [-]

Google. Microsoft. Apple. In the years where "mobile is cool" became a mantra, basically everybody fell for the trend. Several examples in this random blog post that talks about the topic:

https://blog.prototypr.io/mobile-first-desktop-worst-f900909...

You asking this means (maybe?) that you're too young to have used the abhorrent default start menu of Windows 8, but yeah, forcing down users' throats the result of tucking what essentially was a mobile design into a 32" desktop monitor was the pure definition of "stupid decisions driven by marketing".

And it was not only OSes, too much of the web got "infected" with these design trends that are only appropriate for small screens:

https://www.nngroup.com/articles/content-dispersion/

dismalaf 4 days ago | parent | next [-]

I'm old enough that the first computer I used was an IBM PC. Running PC DOS. Granted, I was very young and only remember it because of the little turtle in Logo. Then it was Apple IIs. Then Windows. I actually used Linux in the 90's. I remember Windows 8, but mainly because of the complainers. I was Linux full time by then anyway.

But I do happen to enjoy having extraneous menus hidden. Why are they cluttering my screen and workspace when I'm using keyboard shortcuts anyway? I want to see my actual work, not some menu I don't need and will never click on...

Using a mouse to click on a bunch of tiny menus littered all over the place is horrible for productivity and screams "boomer"...

j1elo 4 days ago | parent [-]

Oh! then you've lived well through all these design fads of the last decades. Let me assure you, a bad designer is going to do a bad job whether you give them a desktop-first framework or not, that's the kind of desktop interfaces you might be thinking of. But a mobile-first framework will always render poor results on desktop, regardless (and in spite) of the skill and knowledge of the designer.

I cannot say this based on evidence, but I'll say anyways based on subjective common sense, that the Start Menu of Windows 95, 98, XP, and 7 were all immensely better than the Start ..."screen" thing of Windows 8.

velomash 4 days ago | parent | prev [-]

It's not that mobile is "cool". I've had analytics data for many apps across different types of industries. Consistently, even on mainline web pages, traffic is dominated by mobile. The vast majority of people visit apps and pages on their phones.

fsflover 4 days ago | parent | prev [-]

> But mobile platforms, with their small touchscreens are completely different from desktop platforms with their large screens, keyboards and mice. So what do you do?

This is not an example from KDE, but you do convergence: https://videos.puri.sm/pureos/l5-convergence-purism.mp4

account42 3 days ago | parent [-]

No, that's an example of the problem being discussed: mobile UI on a desktop.

fsflover 3 days ago | parent [-]

Which problem exactly? It works just fine. Just like there is no problem with well-designed websites that can work both on mobile and on desktop (like HN).