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| ▲ | andrewmcwatters 12 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Yeah, every time I read people saying stuff like the OP, I’m like, “Yeah, sure if you’re an atheist.” The religious world is chugging along just fine. All of my religious friends have two, three kids, perfectly fine or above average incomes. It’s just not a priority for non-religious people, and there was never a loss of third spaces. Church hopping to date is a thing. People share values. Congregations celebrate new babies and chip in. Community exists. It’s a comparatively bad experience for those without that support. The secular world has none of this except maybe immediate family, and even then I don’t see support from non-religious parents to their non-religious children. So of course these people think these things. They’re basically thrown into the world with no social net. | | |
| ▲ | dh2022 3 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | How does the congregation chip in for new babies? Does the congregation provide cheap daycare? Or cheap college ? Lack of both was the main reason me and my wife have only 1 child. My religious friends also have 3 kids for each family. College (or vaccination for that matter) is not in the cards for these kids. The wives stay at home to take care of the kids. The families live out in the boonies - the dads have 1 hour commute.and even so they are leveraged to the hilt: they bought their homes with a regular loan + HELOC. The kids are very religious-they shun Halloween and video-games for example (but the girls have their Instagram accounts ). For each his own I guess. | |
| ▲ | xyzelement 12 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Really sad - it's a sort of tangible vision of what it means to have forsaken Gd and be forsaken by him. | | |
| ▲ | andrewmcwatters 12 hours ago | parent [-] | | Yeah, I think that’s a fair argument. It’s easily been the most clear indicator of social connective health I’ve seen over the course of my life regardless of faith background. | | |
| ▲ | whatajoke69420 12 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Nah, I think that's a really inane argument. Religious fervor (loosely defined as "Religion is a good thing") is the most clear indicator I've seen of social decay over the course of my life, regardless of which particular faith it is. | |
| ▲ | dh2022 an hour ago | parent | prev [-] | | I think you need to go out more often:). But seriously: this type of social connection works for some people and does not work for others. At church you are not allowed to question. When people pray you are supposed to bow your head. You are supposed to be quiet. I went to a few church services when a few of my friends invited me. I stuck out like a sore thumb. At the door on my way out the church greeters wished me well-while avoiding any eye contact. To each his own, I guess. | | |
| ▲ | xyzelement 43 minutes ago | parent [-] | | I would compare the experience you had in church to dropping in on an advanced math class or a powerlifting gym. When it's your first time, of course you don't know what to do and what it means - but that's a reflection of your being a novice rather than a comment on the thing itself or your ability to benefit from it. I can try to make an example. The reason people bow their heads in prayer is to acknowledge our finite mortality and limitation, in the face of the eternal. It puts us in our place, and creates the correct mindset for the prayer. For someone who prays, the bowing of the head isn't just "what you're supposed to do" but an indication of something much more significant and impactful on one's life. In fact, the idea represented by bowing down in prayer, and the topic of this thread (relationship between religiocity and stance on grief) can be connected. |
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| ▲ | whatajoke69420 12 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Every time I read people saying stuff like your comment, I'm like, "yeah, sure, survivorship bias and confirmation seeking still exists" I mean this, if your value system mirrors that of a cult (sky deity who commands you to procreate and all) than it would make sense that your only mating options are within that "community". Of COURSE these people think these things. They're basically sequestered from the rest of the world. | | |
| ▲ | xyzelement 5 hours ago | parent [-] | | How many kids do you have? It's hilarious that atheists are so smart and "it's just Darwinism" and then they literally die on that hill. Maybe there's something to this "sky deity" thing if the only people in the next generations are kids of those who believe. | | |
| ▲ | dh2022 an hour ago | parent | next [-] | | It is hilarious :) "Idiocracy" is where the "only sky deity worshippers pro-create" movie ends. I happen to have religious friends. They invited me once to a Christmas dinner - about 5 families. My and my wife were the only ones who did not have at least 2 kids (we had no kids at that time). My wife was the only woman working, and I was the only one who was not working construction - one of the guys made this remark, not me. During the dinner the male host started playing on a keyboard. There was a chorus of women singing religious hymns around him (I am not making this up). One of the guys tried to convert me. All in good nature and polite and with no confrontation - these are all good people and we saw each other after that. But I skipped Christmas at their house the following year :) | | |
| ▲ | xyzelement 37 minutes ago | parent [-] | | Sounds like you have kids now and that's wonderful! "Wife being the only woman working" is an odd metric though. My wife went from being an ER physician when we met (fun times during COVID pregnant with our first) to doing telemedicine after we had our second, to doing that part time after we had our third. Similar to many women in our circle who are highly educated and professional, kids mean "working less" but this decision represents a desired and meaningful tradeoff. My wife loved her work but she (obviously?) loves being there for our children even more. At the end of the day, I suspect "singing around the piano" is a W not an L. It's funny that if you went to a "normal" party and everyone ended up drunk and scrolling on the phone you'd not posit that as how weird non-religious people are :) |
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| ▲ | pike_poker 37 minutes ago | parent | prev [-] | | [dead] |
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| ▲ | kashunstva 13 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | > even though these things are NOTHING compared to what people dealt with in history and still had kids Until recent human history, though, humans had far less control over childbearing than now. And children in the past were relied on to provide supplemental labour to maintain the household which was, much more often than now, a farm. So at times there were very practical reasons for childbearing. But agree, deeply held values enable some to overcome obstacles. | | |
| ▲ | xyzelement 13 hours ago | parent [-] | | I realize these arguments are very common but I think they are more than likely bullshit. Again, I think religious people today are a good proxy for how people were "back then" especially since faith was almost universal. For example, religious people don't use birth control and have more kids - but it's because that's what they want. To believe that someone has the discipline to adhere to the tenets of religion (eg respecting the sabbath, dietary laws) but keeps having unwanted kids due to uncontrolled lust for his wife, seems bullshit on its face. The "farm help" thing... I think most people then and now see kids primarily as another mouth to feed in perpetuity, and not some sort of revenue generating asset. Certainly people who have a lot of kids today, aren't doing it for financial reasons. And when I think back on my grandmother who was one of 5 or my wife's grandparents who were one of 10, it wasn't because their parents were harnessing them to a plow. People today have kids because they love them, and because they want to cast a vote of influence into the future. I think people in the past primarily had similar motivations. The "farm help/birth control thing" is cope for the childless primarily, no parent actually thinks this way. |
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