Remix.run Logo
raincole 6 days ago

> a shared ledger implemented with traditional databases / protocols would be faster, easier, and more transparent.

Stablecoin is not a technology. It's an excuse. An excuse to do what banks do while not being regulated like a bank or using the infrastructure banks use. Similar to how Airbnb is not a technology but an excuse to do what hotels do without hotel's license.

So it makes no sense to compare it to database, a technology.

Will this excuse work? Banking is a heavily regulated field so it's less likely than Airbnb, but it's ultimately up to lawmakers.

kccqzy 6 days ago | parent | next [-]

Large banks like JPMorgan Chase are also looking into launching their own stablecoins, just because it has less regulation than normal banking. In fact Jamie Dimon himself says so. The idea is really simple: creating stablecoin deposit accounts for customers allows banks to skip existing customer protections that are normally afforded to traditional deposit accounts.

gamblor956 6 days ago | parent | next [-]

Stablecoins will end subject to just as much regulation as a normal bank, maybe even more.

JPMorgan Chase, BofA, and their ilk have R&D budgets large enough to have already launched a dozen stablecoins by now. They haven't, not because they can't (on a technical level) but because they don't actually see the value to it (on a business level). They're simply paying lip service to crypto because it pumps up share value, the same way every business was bragging about their AI investments just a few months ago.

Ericson2314 5 days ago | parent | next [-]

I certainly hope you are right! It depends on how deep the trump admin 2 rot will go.

Anon84 5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Banks are already using stable coins internally (case in point https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/JPM_Coin) it just hasn’t been made available externally yet.

ericpauley 5 days ago | parent | next [-]

Clicking just a few links down on that article shows that JPM Coin is a Blockchain in branding only. It's backed by a centralized (in trust principals if not in compute) ledger and used for transactions between mutually-trusting parties.

5 days ago | parent | prev [-]
[deleted]
immibis 5 days ago | parent | prev [-]

Is Uber subject to taxi regulations yet?

gamblor956 5 days ago | parent | next [-]

Outside of the U.S., Uber is subject to taxi regulations in most of the places it operates.

In the U.S., it is subject to a new set of regulations governing "rideshares" that are similar to the regulations governing taxis. The primary differences are that medallions aren't required for rideshare vehicles, nor are rideshare drivers required to know anything about the location in which they're driving.

Objectively speaking, the taxi drivers and companies that are still alive today provide better service than their rideshare counterparts. I can tell a taxi driver "the Z building" at the airport and they'll know what it is, where it is, and how to get there. Most rideshare drivers need to look it up, and they'll be damned if they actually follow the google directions to get there without getting lost on the way.

seanmcdirmid 3 days ago | parent [-]

I’m pretty sure most rideshare services are forcing drivers to use their own map software. They aren’t using google, at least directly, and they are using routes recommended by the ride sharing companies themselves. Just replace them with AI already, Waymo was really good when I tried it in SF. Not technically ride share anymore though, I bet we see robo taxis eventually regulated like taxis when they eventually take over the market.

te_chris 5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Yes. Just look at London - where it’s private hire, not taxi, but still very regulated.

piker 5 days ago | parent [-]

And basically sucks.

Jommi 4 days ago | parent | prev [-]

yes in many many many countries.

justin66 5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> Large banks like JPMorgan Chase are also looking into launching their own stablecoins, just because it has less regulation than normal banking.

That always works out great.

Can't wait for the next explosion, followed by government bailout, followed by some portion of all our wealth vaporizing, all to the benefit of a small number of people.

dangero 5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Yes — similarly I work in cryptocurrency and constantly try to tell people that credit cards are unbeatable for payments because of the consumer protections. Chargebacks are an insanely consumer friendly feature. Nobody ever wants to engage in that conversation.

thehappypm 6 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Venmo is essentially a stable coin

arcticbull 5 days ago | parent | next [-]

Other way around. Stablecoins are essentially Venmo for crime. They get zero benefit from a blockchain. They are centralized, trusted and permissioned. Circle can freeze the USDC in your self-custody wallet at any time and you’re on your own bud. This whole thing is antithetical to crypto’s core ethos.

You could replicate USDC with a website where you log in with a password and move money between numbered accounts and they don’t run any AML/KYC checks on you. If you did that it would be super illegal. In fact someone did exactly this, it was called Liberty Reserve and everyone went to prison.

But because it’s got the magic of the blockchain laws don’t apply.

djrj477dhsnv 5 days ago | parent | next [-]

Good. AML/KYC laws are a huge abuse of state power.

throwaway2037 5 days ago | parent | next [-]

Serious question: What is the practical alternative? What do you think will happen if we reduce/remove AML/KYC requirements?

djrj477dhsnv 5 days ago | parent [-]

The alternative is the freedom to make any financial transaction without the government being involved.

If your concern is effective taxation, there are plenty of methods that worked historically while preserving financial privacy like property taxes.

mewpmewp2 5 days ago | parent | next [-]

The biggest reason for KYC and regulations are anti money laundering and corruption.

By making non KYC transactions easier, above becomes much easier and crime, fraud, scams and corruption significantly more profitable.

zx8080 5 days ago | parent | next [-]

Is there any report or research showing that KYC actually helped reducing corruption?

philipallstar 5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Making everyone jump through hoops, at great expense, because the proceeds of crime are being laundered seems like the wrong way to approach stopping crime. I'd argue that bitcoin is in some ways more traceable, as all wallets are public.

Saline9515 5 days ago | parent | prev [-]

Problem with KYC and AML is that if you listen to the regulators, there is no end to it, the requirements only increase. I was once asked to provide 20 years of banking receipts for a small savings account that my grandmother had opened for me when I was 5. In the EU at least, it's common for banks to block transfers between countries, even if the transaction is well-documented. The most infuriating thing is that there's no real proof that AML works. It's just excellent at false positives, ending in account freezes for innocent people.

Stablecoins' success is also a reaction to the ever-increasing friction created by overreaching regulation. If you have a supplier in China, and need to buy some in-demand goods, you can sign the contract and send the money now, whereas with the classic banking system, you'd have to wait for two weeks to clear everything. This alone is brilliant and should be welcomed for its usefulness.

baq 5 days ago | parent [-]

Stablecoins are banks. What you’re describing has been the foundation of the banking system since medieval times.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hawala

Saline9515 5 days ago | parent [-]

What is interesting with stablecoins is that they are on the blockchain, which acts as a decentralized, uncensorable ledger which doesn't require you to tell a bank clerk what is written inside your wedding ring to be allowed to buy a second hand BMW in Poland.

topranks 4 days ago | parent | next [-]

Indeed. Blockchains are for breaking the law.

I think it would be wholly better, in democracies, if we changed laws we didn’t like than tried to create technology to evade them.

Saline9515 4 days ago | parent [-]

The law says that banks need to do AML/KYC, a blockchain is not a bank, it's decentralized. Besides, being able to break a law can be good, when such laws have little to do with crime prevention, and more about feeding an industrial complex that earns from those frictions. And buying a car is not illegal as far as I know.

The main proponent that dictates the regulations, the FATF, is a shady, unregulated body that is used for political and economical repression.

wbnns 3 days ago | parent [-]

> a blockchain is not a bank, it's decentralized

Not all blockchains are decentralized, it depends on the consensus mechanism

baq 5 days ago | parent | prev [-]

but if you buy a BMW in Poland on a stablecoin chain, everybody will know.

djrj477dhsnv 4 days ago | parent | next [-]

Only if they happen to know the connection between you and the seller's wallet addresses and your respective identities.

Almost all the crypto I have is from p2p or freelancing. Very few could connect my identity and my wallets.

Saline9515 4 days ago | parent | prev [-]

Maybe, but at least no one will block the payment.

topranks 4 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Pretty sure they didn’t that’s why we brought in anti money-laundering laws.

mxschumacher 5 days ago | parent | prev [-]

it's not about taxes, it's about fighting illegal activity. Terrorist financing, drug dealing, human trafficking etc - do you really think it's a good idea to let those actors exchange payments freely?

losvedir 5 days ago | parent | next [-]

What's next, random searches at road checkpoints? Do you really want to let those actors use roads freely?

topranks 4 days ago | parent [-]

Do you the police should have zero power to set up checkpoints, or search cars even with a warrant?

djrj477dhsnv 4 days ago | parent [-]

Checkpoints, no. Searches with a warrant, yes.

djrj477dhsnv 5 days ago | parent | prev [-]

Yes, I think everyone should be able to exchange payments freely.

Drugs should be legal, so that's not a problem. Terrorism and human trafficking are more complicated topics, but basically I think they should be attacked more directly, not financially.

arcticbull 5 days ago | parent | prev [-]

Great opinion.

beeflet 5 days ago | parent [-]

Great rebuttal!

The government has existed for hundreds of years before these sophisticated mechanisms of surveilling the money system and the people were introduced. And it will continue to exist should they be removed.

arcticbull 5 days ago | parent [-]

You know everything was shit hundreds of years ago right, the wildcat banking system collapsed into miserable failure and the bearer instruments were eliminated because of the risk of train robberies.

topranks 4 days ago | parent [-]

Good news! They’re back!

derangedHorse 5 days ago | parent | prev [-]

> Stablecoins are essentially Venmo for crime

What is your source for stablecoins being "for crime"? I've seen many individuals from countries all over the world utilize stablecoins in ways legal for their jurisdiction.

arcticbull 5 days ago | parent | next [-]

> The devastating impact of these scams is evident in the staggering losses reported globally. In 2024 alone, cryptocurrency investment fraud, largely driven by pig butchering schemes, caused over $5.8 billion in reported losses in the U.S. The anonymity and cross-border nature of cryptocurrency transactions have historically made these scams incredibly challenging to investigate and prosecute, allowing criminal syndicates to operate with relative impunity.

https://blockchain.bakermckenzie.com/2025/07/01/the-225-mill...

It’s slower, riskier, with less protection and usually more expensive than a classical financial transaction. So it self selects for criminals.

derangedHorse 5 days ago | parent [-]

I don't think that logic checks out. It being "slower, riskier, with less protection and usually more expensive" are not properties that self selects for criminals.

Stablecoins typically being self-custodial, easier to transfer in large amounts, and internationally accessible seem like it would support criminals, but with stablecoins, funds can be frozen just like bank deposits can.

This is emphasized in the article you linked:

> The investigation began in late 2023 when Tether, the issuer of the USDT stablecoin, proactively froze 39 wallet addresses containing $225 million in stolen USDT after detecting suspicious activity. This immediate action was critical in preventing further dispersion of the illicit funds. Paolo Ardoino, CEO of Tether, was quoted as saying, “Tether’s work with the Department of Justice underscores our commitment to transparency, proactive engagement with law enforcement, and the protection of users across the digital asset ecosystem.”

And the number you quoted is for cryptocurrency at large, not stablecoins. I imagine the number looks a lot different when we filter for that subset of usecases. For the large amounts used in stories like this, banks would be a better indicator for comparison[1][2]. Venmo, Cashapp, and Zelle have had their fair share of scandals as well[3].

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wachovia#Latin_drug_cartel_mon...

[2] https://www.reuters.com/business/finance/td-bank-appoints-co...

[3] https://www.freep.com/story/money/personal-finance/susan-tom...

topranks 4 days ago | parent | next [-]

Tether has been reluctant in many cases to freeze addresses reported to it. At least historically it would not do so if the coins didn’t belong to its direct customers (mostly the large exchanges), rather than individuals who got them from their customers and did crime.

https://archive.ph/6nvkc

The other major issue is it’s easy to get the stablecoins, move them around, cash them out, and by the time Tether freezes them the criminals have already been paid (in dollars, which is what they want really).

arcticbull 5 days ago | parent | prev [-]

Even criminals don't want the insane volatility of vanilla crypto, and there's an unfounded sentiment that Tether doesn't freeze value in people's wallets (they actually freeze more than anyone else, and good luck resolving it in Salvadoran court if they even have jurisdiction).

Yes classical finance has had scandals because they're obligated to prevent these things, and in general, they have responded to court judgements by upping their internal controls. Crypto is built specifically not to have either internal controls or the ability to institute them in a meaningful way. It's the fundamental premise. One system is designed to stop this activity but fails sometimes, the other is designed to allow this activity by anarchocapitalist libertarian ethos and offers roughly zero recourse for those caught up incorrectly.

This argument is tantamount to "well, a plane crashed, so obviously the FAA doesn't provide any value, and we should just stop regulating aircraft entirely and yolo it." Same with drugs, well, a side-effect happened, let's just scrap the FDA and legalize the grey market Chinese sackloads of $5 peptides. While we're at it, we should let Walgreens sell em, why not.

If you think what the classical institutions are doing is wrong, you shouldn't say well, just let 'em lol, you should be arguing for stricter penalties and more control. If you think it's right, well, I don't know what to say.

Pepperidge Farm remembers when nobody in their right mind would just give all their money to unregulated offshore banks in the Caribbean. Remind me why that was again?

zx8080 5 days ago | parent [-]

The comparison is wrong. FDA is not there to confiscate anyone's money by locking down their accounts. FDA regulation is applied to companies. KYC is the US shit which applies to anyone, anywhere in the world outside the US, having the priority above local laws.

It must end.

doubleorseven 5 days ago | parent | prev [-]

stablecoins are not for crime actually, it's like the bank of the criminals. for crime you would want to mix your stablecoins to btc or xmr, probably the latter.

benjaminwootton 6 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

You are correct but with Venmo or PayPal there’s a middleman charging fees who can lock your funds. A decentralised PayPal is appealing.

Zanfa 5 days ago | parent | next [-]

Just to be clear, Tether and Circle also have complete control over their respective stablecoins if they so choose. They have the exact same power to reverse, freeze and block any transaction or balance just as PayPal and Venmo do.

notpushkin 5 days ago | parent [-]

Can you elaborate?

topranks 4 days ago | parent [-]

The mechanics are sort of different. It’s on a blockchain so a true “reverse” is not possible.

But the smart contracts they write look up a blacklist, which only they control. They can block, unblock or burn tokens.

To “reverse” something they could burn those tokens, and then just issue more and send the new ones to the original address.

So yeah it’s like PayPal or whatever. Except with blockchain thrown in so they can say the rules don’t apply to them.

jekrb 5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

PayPal also has their own stablecoin, PyUSD https://www.paypalobjects.com/devdoc/community/PYUSD-Solana-...

lern_too_spel 5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

That middleman can be compelled by the government to return your funds. A foreigner who empties your wallet on a decentralized PayPal cannot.

topranks 4 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Not really.

The “solution” for decentralisation - proof of work - makes the system a lot more expensive (think: higher fees) than a centralised database.

thehappypm 5 days ago | parent | prev [-]

What fees?

kccqzy 5 days ago | parent [-]

An implicit fee by not paying you any interest for money held in Venmo.

Also notice there's no option to automatically transfer received money into your real checking account. They are banking on you forgetting your money is there and they are earning the interest but not passing it to you.

For this reason I prefer receiving money via Zelle but pay with Venmo.

diamond559 5 days ago | parent [-]

As if you make any real return holding money in a bank account.

umanwizard 5 days ago | parent | prev [-]

What? How so? If by "stablecoin" you just mean "any USD-denominated balance maintained by a third party in a ledger" then every bank balance is a "stablecoin".

topranks 4 days ago | parent | prev [-]

Yep. And the White House will let them now.

allknowingfrog 6 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Do we have a term for this phenomenon yet? Airbnb is a great example. Uber is another. Regulatory loopholes are the way that these companies actually make money, but they call it "technology" and everyone kind of shrugs.

wouldbecouldbe 6 days ago | parent | next [-]

Airbnb was a bit more then a regulatory loophole, it at least started out as a new way for private homeowners to monetize one of their greatest asset. So it was much more an unused potential that was being tapped in.

The regulation that came after has in my personal experience privatized airbnb and now it's hard to find a private renter, when I started using it that was the standard.

ethbr1 6 days ago | parent [-]

Once Airbnb became systemically harmful, regulation followed.

Nobody cares about small tech companies breaking the law for a few users.

Everyone cares about {insert bad outcome from mass regulatory avoidance}.

(Also, of the 3 airbnb founders, one has delusions of being the next Steve Jobs and turning it into an everything app (Chesky), another now works for DOGE (Gebbia), and the last is sucking up to Chinese government data requests (Blecharczyk)... so, yeah, not exactly the sort of folks that should be trusted with light regulation)

wouldbecouldbe 5 days ago | parent [-]

I know many many friends who were able to survive an expensive city because of it. Cities that are largely messed up due to the governments stupid games with taxes and interest

ethbr1 5 days ago | parent | next [-]

I think we might have different definitions of things if "survive" and "because of airbnb" can coexist in the same sentence.

hiatus 5 days ago | parent | prev [-]

I wonder if those places would be more affordable if there weren't airbnbs.

cvs268 6 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

One term for it is "Regulatory Arbitrage".

consumer451 5 days ago | parent [-]

This has been my favorite SV euphemism for years.

runarberg 5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

In my circles we have been calling it unregulated free market capitalism, or laissez faire capitalism.

More examples include Uber to bypass taxi regulation, and generative AI to bypass copyright regulation (as well as consumer protection regulation in both cases as well as labor protections).

bongodongobob 5 days ago | parent | next [-]

How does a user use AI to bypass copyright?

runarberg 5 days ago | parent [-]

By training models on unauthorized work and allow users to request them back.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43573156

runarberg 5 days ago | parent [-]

I need to clarify, parent asked how does a user use AI to bypass copyright. But I answered how an AI company uses AI to bypass copyright.

I am under no illusion that if a user of AI requests an image of Indiana Jones and uses it in their art, the rights holders will issue a takedown an would succeed. The AI company that owns the model that generated the model will however not face any consequences, and have therefor successfully have bypassed copyright protections.

umanwizard 5 days ago | parent | prev [-]

What we're talking about is a much more specific phenomenon than "unregulated free market capitalism". In fact, in an unregulated market, there would be no regulatory arbitrage opportunities, by definition (e.g. Uber would have no reason to exist since taxis would already be unregulated).

runarberg 4 days ago | parent [-]

The idea of the argument (or more accurately the joke) is that Uber is unregulated free market capitalism. It is what happens to the taxi market if they would lift all regulations. Uber’s whole “innovation” was to find a way to be unregulated while most of their competitors were still regulated.

taberiand 6 days ago | parent | prev [-]

[flagged]

forgotTheLast 6 days ago | parent [-]

That term has a very specific meaning and I wish people stopped using it to mean "big tech doing something bad"

wazdra 6 days ago | parent | next [-]

Well, doesn't that specific meaning apply here? I mean, the lack of protection for end-users is at first compensated by investment money (low prices and huge effort on support). Once network effect is reached, the unregulated nature of the platform shows, end-users are wronged, only providers profit from the lack of regulation ...

Or maybe I don't understand the meaning of enshittification?

stevage 6 days ago | parent | next [-]

It means something very different from your definition.

tsimionescu 5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

No. The whole point of enshittification is that it is an intentional process, a bait-and-switch. You get a cool free service, you become dependent on it, and then they start monetizing it and limiting it.

verdverm 6 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

My understanding is it is more tied to crafting UX that maximizes profit. Many cases involve both enshittification and regulatory arbitrage (as a peer comment so eloquently put it)

elteto 6 days ago | parent | prev [-]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enshittification

taberiand 6 days ago | parent | prev [-]

Yes I know, which is why I looked up the Wikipedia definition to make sure I was using it correctly.

Stripe provides a trusted service to its users, has a great reputation, then implements changes that will degrade that service by avoiding regulations designed to protect the consumer.

Adding blockchain is enshittification.

madamelic 6 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Personally, I think US banking needs something an Uber or AirBnB style shake-up to get their act in order.

It's awful how behind the times the US is when it comes to banking. 2 - 3 days to get money from one account to another is beyond embarrassing in the modern day. It took the US something like 15 years to get chip-and-pin.

Banks are still these monolithic entities that don't care to innovate or listen to customers because "what are you going to do, go to one of the other 4 monoliths that are all in cahoots with each other"

9dev 6 days ago | parent | next [-]

Other countries managed to regulate their banks to innovate just fine without blockchain technology, though. It doesn’t always need a startup to disrupt something by flipping the finger to lawmakers. Sometimes humble regulation is enough. Take SEPA as an example: I can transfer money free of charge to any European bank account, in a few seconds.

input_sh 6 days ago | parent | next [-]

To be fair, European Central Bank also wants to introduce its own official Euro-backed "stablecoin" (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_euro), mostly because they are scared of the posibility that Dollar-backed stablecoins could make Euros less relevant in the future (https://www.politico.eu/article/lagardes-euro-moment-busted-...).

snitty 5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

US banks literally collapsed the world financial system in 2008. You don't deserve humble regulation after that. They got, and they deserved, the Dodd-Frank Act, which has now been significantly rolled back.

sunshine-o 6 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> Sometimes humble regulation is enough. Take SEPA as an example: I can transfer money free of charge to any European bank account, in a few seconds.

SEPA was a success but it was only a first step to modernise the banking system. The following regulations/directives like PSD2 failed in my opinion.

The ECB also had one of those CBDC built much earlier than people have been told. They already had something quite advanced around 2020, with a optimist launch date in 2022 I believe.

It obviously failed miserably and I read a few weeks ago that they are "exploring Ethereum and Solana for digital euro launch".

I would be curious what happened exactly but my guess is the banks just said "NO WAY".

Saline9515 5 days ago | parent | next [-]

SEPA allows this in theory; in practice, for amounts >10k€, most banks will require you to provide proofs for the transaction due to the maximalist AML laws in the EU.

My bank requires me to download a PDF on their website, print it, fill it out by hand, scan it, and then send it by mail. After a few days, someone will decide to allow it (or not). If it is refused, I don't get any reason why and have to call the client service for clues.

ta12653421 5 days ago | parent [-]

working in the field: Would you please share name or BIC of this institute?

Saline9515 5 days ago | parent [-]

Unfortunately, given my post history it would be easy to identify me, all I can say is that it was a French bank.

Kbelicius 5 days ago | parent | prev [-]

> The ECB also had one of those CBDC built much earlier than people have been told. They already had something quite advanced around 2020, with a optimist launch date in 2022 I believe.

> It obviously failed miserably

They had a CBDC but hid it from everyone... but then somehow it failed miserably. If it wasn't released, how? They even had it before they decided to have it (2021). This seems just like a load of bullshit.

sunshine-o 5 days ago | parent [-]

When they saw Bitcoin and Ethereum they obviously understood a great disruption was coming and acted on it. SWIFT too.

A Central Bank do not share everything they consider/plan with the public. It is not really hidden or secret, but they also do not make a press release about it.

Also if they are fundamentally gonna transform our banking system they better start early because a lot of things can go wrong. I estimate the time to build such a system is about 10 years if everything goes well.

I do not know exactly what went wrong, my guess is the banks pushed back as much as they could because most of them would have been made irrelevant under that model. Now they are talking about Ethereum and Solana because they understood they have to fight against the Dollar in this arena.

latchkey 6 days ago | parent | prev [-]

Small money is fine. Any big transaction will get flagged and potentially delayed.

I don't know about you, but I'd rather use a system that allows me to do what I want with my funds without anyone else controlling it.

degamad 6 days ago | parent | next [-]

> I don't know about you, but I'd rather use a system that allows me to do what I want with my funds without anyone else controlling it.

How do we know that this unusual transaction is you doing what you want and not someone else controlling and defrauding you?

A small well-understood amount of friction that significantly reduces everyone's risk is not an attempt to control your funds.

Old systems with arbitrary delays based on twentieth century processes should be replaced, but not everything needs immediate infinite speed to be valuable.

latchkey 5 days ago | parent [-]

> How do we know that this unusual transaction is you doing what you want and not someone else controlling and defrauding you?

That's what they'd like you to believe, but fact of the matter is that you're still not protected. For example, at my last company, the finance department was phished into changing a bank account number and transferred $50k to another account. Bank just shrugged.

throwaway2037 5 days ago | parent [-]

Did they get the 50K back?

latchkey 5 days ago | parent [-]

Not to my knowledge.

vintermann 5 days ago | parent | prev [-]

Do you want to live in a world where everyone else can do whatever they want with their funds without anyone else controlling it, though? Seems pretty optimistic for anyone to think they'd do well in that world.

latchkey 5 days ago | parent [-]

I want to live in a world where responsible, law abiding citizens can use their money however they choose.

In the US, we already have credit scores, a system meant to reflect some sort of trustworthiness. Right now, it mostly determines your interest rates and access to capital. But why not extend that trust to granting people more freedom in how they use their funds?

If I want a large loan from my bank, I’m forced to provide endless paperwork and deal with people, despite having a great credit score. In DeFi, I just post collateral and instantly borrow against it. No gatekeepers, no conversations.

These limitations become even more obvious if you’re a nomad or frequent traveler. Suddenly you’re not just facing your local government, you’re up against borders and layers of extra regulation.

habinero 5 days ago | parent | next [-]

This sentence:

> Why not extend that trust to granting people more freedom in how they use their funds?

followed immediately by:

> If I want a large loan from my bank

with absolutely zero irony is very funny.

latchkey 5 days ago | parent [-]

I don't understand the humor. Please explain.

topranks 4 days ago | parent | prev [-]

“Post the collateral”

I’m fairly sure if you want a bank loan and are prepared to lodge cash in the bank to secure it they won’t need too much paperwork.

Usually people getting loans don’t have the funds in cash already. Defi is nothing like that its currency speculation at best.

latchkey 4 days ago | parent [-]

If you want to buy a house and you need a loan, it is a deep investigation into your bank finances.

If I have the money for a down payment, and I want to buy a house, I don't need someone poking around at my finances, even if I have nothing to hide.

> Usually people getting loans don’t have the funds in cash already.

Source? People get loans for all sorts of reasons. Loans are backed by some sort of collateral and if that isn't assets, it definitely involves having someone look at your records.

> Defi is nothing like that its currency speculation at best.

Wrong. DeFi itself has nothing to do with speculation. There is $57B locked up in AAVE on ethereum alone. It isn't a toy.

devmor 6 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Neither Uber nor AirBnB got anyone’s “act in order”.

Uber just captured wealth via operating at a loss until competition was absorbed or destroyed.

AirBnB just helped further drive up the prices of single family homes and didn’t really have much effect on the hospitality industry at all - it caused a minor observable loss in profit which ultimately resulted in nothing.

chrchr 5 days ago | parent [-]

Outside of maybe NYC, taxi service in the U.S. was totally unreliable before Uber/Lyft. It's not even a matter of price. It's so much easier to get a ride now in most of the country.

I don't think AirB&B really improved hotels, but it did organize and centralize the "vacation rental" market, making it easier to, for example, rent a beach cottage for the weekend.

devmor 4 days ago | parent [-]

Existing Taxi services did not improve - they were replaced by a lower quality, more expensive alternative with a lesser economic infusion to local economies.

Hotels and the hospitality industry did not improve at all.

None of those points refute me or support the argument I was contesting - that a “uber or airbnb of banking” would cause banks to “get their act in order”.

kccqzy 6 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Banks have banded together to create Zelle for mostly instantaneous payments for individuals. As far as transactions between individuals, moving money quickly is a solved money. As for moving money from individuals to businesses, taking a long time gives customers more "float" and more time to earn interest, and it is a feature not a bug.

derangedHorse 5 days ago | parent | next [-]

There are other issues to consider in the payments world. For example, I may not want my payment data to be used for marketing purposes[1] or have my payment processor block my steam purchases[2]. I'm skeptical that Stripe will deliver on those gaps though.

[1] https://www.gao.gov/blog/why-do-banks-share-your-financial-i...

[2] https://www.thegamer.com/paypal-not-accepting-most-currencie...

FireBeyond 3 days ago | parent | prev [-]

Banks banded together to create Zelle to offload most fraud risk onto individuals.

They used "mostly instantaneous payments" as the carrot to get those individuals to use the service.

Banks have near zero obligations around Zelle transaction fraud - if they do anything, it's often mostly as a goodwill gesture for a customer.

ac29 5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> 2 - 3 days to get money from one account to another is beyond embarrassing in the modern day

I've had next day ACH between all my various accounts for years now. Wires have also been a thing basically forever though most people need to pay to send and receive them. Same day ACH and FedNow are both out there too, though I've yet to see widespread implementation.

hippo77 2 days ago | parent [-]

Try international transfers and get back to me

corimaith 5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

The activities you listed are not the main business of a bank. It's getting deposits and loaning them out with interest. In that regard, they are very successful and it's hard to see how Uber or AirBnB would do better given the disaster of microfinancing.

6 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]
[deleted]
skritched 6 days ago | parent | prev [-]

What other countries are you comparing to? I did a multi year assignment in Germany and holy fucking hell does their banking system suck. It took weeks for my checks to be deposited and reconciliation times were longer. Not defending the US here by my only non-US banking experience was atrocious.

cycomanic 6 days ago | parent | next [-]

The question is why did you use cheques? I don't know anyone who is not American who has used cheques in the last 20 years or so. I have not been living in Germany in a long time so I can't talk much about the banking system, but I have had transfers with German friends and family which never took more than maybe a day or 2 within Europe.

consp 6 days ago | parent | prev [-]

You take a bad example and compare it to another bad example. Germany is well known to be behind the curve like the US. It's the only western European country I still bring a healthy amount cash when I go there. Wouldn't be the first time I had to pay parking with cash in recent times. Every where else this is a non issue. It's rapidly changing though, but I don't like the common in use PIN terminals as they have no way of hiding the PIN entry.

cycomanic 6 days ago | parent [-]

Now I'm not generally a big defender of Germany, but the reason for much more prevalent use of cash is largely privacy in Germany. And I sort of agree that handing all monetary transactions to the mastercard/visa duopoly is a terrible idea.

We are essentially trading the convinience of a tap for increased prices and unelected gatekeepers that can (and will) easily push sectors out of business, because they don't like what they do.

Regarding the parking, I much rather would be able to pay with cash than the $2 parking plus 50 cents cc transaction fee that you have to pay in many places in NZ.

narrator 6 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Can you do fractional reserve banking with stablecoins where you lend out the underlying dollars to people and don't have full reserves? That's what makes banking tricky. When there are a surge of loan defaults across the banking system the money supply shrinks rapidly unless the government bails them out. Thus, the need for regulation.

One reason the U.S government has to like stablecoins is because Tether is one of the biggest buyers of U.S treasuries that they use to back their stablecoins.

vintermann 5 days ago | parent | next [-]

> Can you do fractional reserve banking with stablecoins where you lend out the underlying dollars to people and don't have full reserves?

In a manner of speaking. You need to trust that the issuers have the reserve they claim. There's no way around this, unless the asset in reserve is equally ethereal (i.e. another cryptocurrency).

Tether, for one, almost certainly doesn't have the reserves.

arcticbull 5 days ago | parent | next [-]

Correct, this is fundamentally the oracle problem. There is no link between the blockchain and the real world which is why only money-like instruments have been successful for whatever value of success this constitutes.

chipsrafferty 2 days ago | parent [-]

Is there a link for Fiat?

arcticbull 2 days ago | parent [-]

First of all, wut. Second, that's irrelevant because stable coins rely on fiat backing (ostensibly) so you're stacking a new problem on top of what you perceive to be a different problem. If you believed that to be a problem then stable coins give you that problem twice as hard. And a whole mess of new ones too, like zero recourse against the newly intermediated offshore issuers in low-or-zero regulation locales.

seviu 5 days ago | parent | prev [-]

You would be surprised about tether though

They are now really backed. It might be they weren’t. Now they definitely are.

https://tether.to/en/transparency/?tab=usdt

All these years all this Fud and so far nobody demonstrated what you clam.

They are also the faster to block their stablecoin whenever there is a hack.

SXX 5 days ago | parent | next [-]

Madoff Ponzi scheme also ran for at least 20 years. And yeah around 1% of total USDT supply is blocked so yeah Tether can very well live on those blocked funds:

https://dune.com/phabc/usdt---banned-addresses

seviu 5 days ago | parent [-]

I don’t discuss the past. In 2017 it was tether the one that caused the bubble that put BTC at almost 20k, by issuing tokens backed by nothing

Now they generate more than 10B per year in profits. And they have been using that to collateralize their usdt

It’s clear they are now fully backed. Another question is whether they want to comply with regulations (they don’t comply with MiCA, I doubt USDC does either) but that’s another question

Hate it or love it, they aren’t going anywhere anymore

ForHackernews 5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Have they ever passed a real audit? Not an attestation, not a pinky-swear from a no-name Caribbean bank?

SXX 5 days ago | parent | next [-]

Hey they didnt scam everyone just yet! This is proof it's very safe. </sarcasm>

seviu 5 days ago | parent | prev [-]

That link contains audits, and proof of reserves. What are you talking about.

They got bad rep with zero proof

ForHackernews 5 days ago | parent | next [-]

An "attestation report" is not an audit.

Tether claims accounting firms won't audit them, but that sounds like a convenient self-serving lie to me:

> In an interview with DL News, he said the Big Four accounting firms — Deloitte, PwC, EY, and KPMG — are afraid to work with Tether because they fear it will damage their reputations.

> “None of the Big Four companies will audit us,” Ardoino said. But he said securing one of them as Tether’s auditor is a “top priority.”

Is that credible to you?

[0] https://www.dlnews.com/articles/markets/tether-ceo-just-told...

seviu 5 days ago | parent [-]

Must admit it isn’t

Usdc is audited by Deloitte on a monthly basis.

It would be pretty stupid for Paolo to end up being naked, now that his business is printing money left and right.

To make it clear I am not pro tether, I am against visceral hate which was justified years ago but I feel it isn’t anymore. Tether gained my sympathy by freezing quite promptly funds from various hacks.

Circle on the contrary have failed every single time.

https://cryptobriefing.com/circle-lazarus-group-accusations/

Anyways this is totally unrelated

It will make for a good Netflix documentary once they get their audit

topranks 4 days ago | parent [-]

There is a grain of truth in what you say, but your conclusions are off.

Tether started as a way to pump the Bitcoin price, under the guise of better facilitating payments on crypto exchanges. They’d issue Tethers out of nowhere and use it to buy BTC and wash trade.

It was so successful it got to the level many people thought of it as “as good as dollars”.

This led to massive demand for it outside of Bitcoin pumpers - with criminals, sanctions evaders, money launderers of all kinds. Your granny needs to buy tethers to send money to the scammer she’s on the phone to.

So yes I do think they’ve probably moved away from issuing unbacked tethers. But only because they’ve found another niche which is also extremely suspect.

There is nothing to commend these guys. It’s a massive scam.

topranks 4 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Not real audits by a major firm.

Just pinkie promises. David Gerard discussed a while back:

https://davidgerard.co.uk/blockchain/2021/03/30/tether-produ...

FireBeyond 3 days ago | parent | prev [-]

Garbage. An audit reviews a trail of origin. Tether got an attestation, that said no more, and no less than, "At this exact moment in time, the balance in this account is $X". You could take a short term loan for the majority of that and no-one would know.

You and I can't buy a house on a mere attestation of accounts - funnily enough, lenders want to see how we acquired that money. But these clowns can stand on stage at Davos and say "Yeah, we've banked over half a billion a day USD for the last two years, trust us, we don't need an audit". I know that comparing investment to revenue is not apples-to-apples, but to get an idea of what that incoming cash looks like? You're on the scale of Saudi Aramco. Samsung. Alphabet.

They kept firing their auditors. They had one done, and then refused to release it, saying "it was not of use to anyone because it was in Mandarin Chinese". What the actual fuck?

Their bad rep is their own fault.

"Tether and Bitfinex are completely independent and unrelated!" Oh yeah, why are the same two people who signed a loan contract on Tether's behalf ... the same two people who signed it on Bitfinex's behalf?

Or let's look at their bank, Deltec, who also made statements to "support" Tether... or specifically, let's look at some of the highlights from a fucking trainwreck of an interview their "Deputy CEO" gave to CNBC:

- was conducted from his gaming rig

- about Deltec's (and therefore Tether's) money movements being several times larger than all the banking in their country was due to people misunderstanding the country's two banking licenses, the names of which HE "couldn't remember right now" (the Deputy CEO of a bank who can't remember the name of the banking licenses where they operate?!?), and he "wasn't sure which [banking license] the bank has, but we might have both"

- oh yeah, said Deputy CEO's "resume": 33 years old, by his LinkedIn claimed to have graduated HEC Lausanne in Switzerland with a Master of Science at the age of 15... celebrating his graduation by immediately being named Professor of Finance at a university in Lebanon. While dividing his spare time between running hedge funds in Switzerland (called Indepedance [sic] Weath [sic] Management) and uhh... Jacksonville, FL.

Once CNBC's viewers started ridiculing and questioning both Deltec Bank and Tether, said Deputy CEO was hastily removed from Deltec's "Leadership Team" page on their website. Once that was questioned, he was re-added...

... and then the entire bank website was replaced with a low-effort WordPress template. Their online banking was Javascript hard coded to refuse all login attempts.

"Sounds legit to me", say the crypto bros.

topranks 4 days ago | parent | prev [-]

This is the company who have never produced a real audit despite years of saying they would?

If they are fully backed they’d get an audit. The fact they don’t should tell you all you need to know.

immibis 5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

They do exactly this. Buying treasuries is a form of fractional reserve.

It's worth noting that no full-reserve bank has ever gotten a US banking license, even though many have tried.

ForHackernews 5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Sure, you can! Just get Paolo to fire up the tether printer: https://cryptonews.net/news/altcoins/28875896/

have_faith 6 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

In FIAT money lending is the act of money creation, rather than lending existing money held in account. I’m guessing that wouldn’t have a parallel with stablecoins because the technology won’t let you just make new money at will?

worik 5 days ago | parent | next [-]

> In FIAT money lending is the act of money creation

That depend on how you view money. Lending does increase the volume of money in circulation, in that sense it creates money. But that view is too simple to be useful.

The regulators that regulate, and in particular control reserve ratios (complex calculations that banks have to make about the relationships between their various assets) and base interest rates are the real creators of money.

The side stepping of those regulators is interesting. The conventional view is that it will lead to the same sort of financial instability as existed before the gold standard was abolished and we (pretty much the entire western world) moved to modern banking and fiat currency.

A hundred years of quite stable money was quite an achievement.

nulbyte 5 days ago | parent [-]

> That depend on how you view money. Lending does increase the volume of money in circulation, in that sense it creates money. But that view is too simple to be useful.

Far from being too simple, it is the primary method of money creation in modern economies.

> The regulators that regulate, and in particular control reserve ratios (complex calculations that banks have to make about the relationships between their various assets) and base interest rates are the real creators of money.

Simply setting rates does not create money. It can influence it, but it is not the ultimate cause. Lending is. Reserve banks can and do lend, but commercial banks are responsible for the majority of money creation.

worik 5 days ago | parent [-]

You are suffering frome the twin delusions of simplicity and certainty

Money is fiendish complex and cannot be counted with a one dimensional model

You are deceiving yourself that you understand

didroe 5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

The underlying feature of FIAT money creation is debt. And debt is a very natural thing (existing before money) that will just manifest in the crypto system instead.

topranks 4 days ago | parent | prev [-]

Not unless you lie about what money you have and just print them out of thin air.

topranks 4 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Only a fool would think Tether have never had an audit done out of fear it would prove they’re fully backed.

graeme 6 days ago | parent | prev [-]

Yes, you can absolutely do that with stablecoins. Why couldn't you?

elteto 6 days ago | parent | next [-]

How would the “out of thin air” value creation work in a blockchain ledger?

Pardon my very naive understanding of both subjects.

majormajor 5 days ago | parent | next [-]

Person A deposits $100.

Person B borrows $100, all the coins move on the ledger.

The ledger could facilitate the transfer while the bank maintains an "IOU" for person A's $100. The bank would be betting that not everyone will come withdrawing at once, just like a regular bank.

Regulation is the only thing that can prevent this from being done with any sort of crypto. The same IOU-based business model as happened with cash, gold, etc, could very easily be implemented using the technology. If you don't like fractional reserve banking crypto isn't a magic bullet that makes it impossible, especially since the general public probably wouldn't be sophisticated enough to know how to stick to "true" crypto vs "IOU-based fractional crypto facades."

But generally regulatory regimes have decided that the productivity advancements offered by the investment-through-loans of major portions of deposits are worth the risks. I don't think the GENIUS act allows this, though, so there's one regard where stablecoins are more-regulated. I worry about the edge cases, though - seems like requiring stablecoins to be paid off preferentially incentives using them for deposits, which could harm circulation if the reserves or followed, or which could screw over non-stablecoin deposit-holders if an institution doesn't comply and then goes under.

(This is closer to how regular banking works than the naive "banks create money by incrementing a number in your account." After all, banks are generally either (a) expecting those loans to be spent or directly giving the money to third parties like car dealerships or home sellers - which is likely to physically move the money to other banks, institutions, or cash, not just recordings in their internal tables.)

thinkharderdev 5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

As far as I understand, the backing assets aren't on-chain. I give tether $100, they create and issue me 100 USDT on-chain. But they can take my $100 and lend it out. Now whoever Tether loaned the $100 to has $100 and I have 100 USDT so $100 has been added to the money supply, just like with a normal bank.

nl 5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

It depends on the stablecoin mechanism.

Algorithmic stablecoins[1] don't have a one-for-one backing in real world assets so can in theory create new coins "from thin air". The amount they can do this depends on the exact algorithm and the backing assets, and the practicalities of unstable crypto pricing make this difficult in practice.

For example the well-known DAI stablecoin[2] is backed by a mix of crypto assets, but is overcollateralized to avoid problems when one of the backing assets drops in value. The is sort of the opposite of "creating money out of thin air"...

Non-algorithmic stablecoins can do it by being backed by "high quality loan assets", in which case the conventional, non-crypto credit creation mechanism applies.

[1] https://www.kraken.com/learn/algorithmic-stablecoins

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dai_(cryptocurrency)

seviu 5 days ago | parent [-]

Dai might have been algorithmically backed but it’s now a flavor of usdc since it’s backed in its majority by usdc.

So far all algorithmically backed stablecoins have failed. Remember Terra Luna.

immibis 5 days ago | parent [-]

> So far all algorithmically backed stablecoins have failed. Remember Terra Luna.

So that's a sample size of 2, and from those 2, 1 has failed. Not exactly "all"

seviu 5 days ago | parent [-]

I gave you the most dramatic example. So far no undercollateralized, algorithmically backed $1 stablecoin has sustained a reliable peg at scale over multiple years.

Zero. Nada. There was always somebody somewhere exploiting it.

TerraUSD USN USDN Basic Cash

All failures so far, every time a death spiral.

FRAX started as algorithmic and had to move to over collateralization

Same with DAI

You really can’t call them like that once they become backed by USDC

immibis 4 days ago | parent [-]

Your bailey:

> all algorithmically backed stablecoins have failed

Your motte:

> no undercollateralized, algorithmically backed $1 stablecoin has sustained a reliable peg at scale over multiple years

jekrb 5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

theres no reason a bank couldn't take a stablecoin deposit and fractionally lend against it

thats effectively what already happens with their own internal ledgers anyways

graeme 6 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

There are defi loans for example. You take an asset like BTC and loan stablecoins against it.

The underlying asset can be rehypothecated, Celsius did this before going bust iirc.

Tether is also the underlying backer of crypto market cap, and has never done an audit of their assets. They've made loans to various crypto market participants.

In theory there are auto liquidation rules etc. In practice humans have not yet managed to create a financial system they can't make asset bubbles with

topranks 4 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

The same way it does in Excel.

You fire up Excel. Put some numbers in the boxes. Say those numbers are dollar bills you have under the bed.

Then you do SUM(A1:A10) to show your total funds. It has to be legit because Excel doesn’t lie right?

Onavo 6 days ago | parent | prev [-]

The reward function in the smart contract can be made to increase over time.

elteto 6 days ago | parent [-]

That’s not the same though. Banks literally make money out of thin air when they extend a loan (oversimplified of course). They can choose the time and place to do so without having to wait for “checkpoints”. They can even run themselves into the ground by creating too much money (if there is no reserve requirement).

immibis 5 days ago | parent | next [-]

Banks make bank-account-dollars (a form of IOU) but they can't make cash-dollars. When you withdraw, the bank has to give you cash-dollars from its pool and can't just print some. Only reason they're considered equivalent is... uh... because I said so? And they're legally allowed to denominate their bankdollars in dollars.

Anyone can print IOUs, but not everyone can legally call them dollars. That's the only advantage banks have over the rest of us.

Same on the blockchain but without the privilege of conflation. You can have a smart contract that has $100 of ether but trades in 200 shares valued at $10 each. But the blockchain systems prevent you from pretending that bank-ethers and cash-ethers are the same thing. You can label them the same but they're not the same and the system knows that. Even Wrapped ETH, a contract that literally just prints and destroys WETH 1-to-1 with the ETH it holds, i.e. a full-reserve zero-fee bank, isn't interchangeable with actual ETH.

Onavo 6 days ago | parent | prev [-]

They can all be modeled. Reserve requirements can be written in a similar way to flash loans.

sagarm 6 days ago | parent | prev [-]

Then bank runs or regulation seem inevitable.

woah 6 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> An excuse to do what banks do while not being regulated like a bank or using the infrastructure banks use.

Stablecoins are much more heavily regulated than banks, being required to have 100% reserves under the GENIUS act, unlike banks who generally only ever hold on to 10% of the money you deposit with them.

Using their infrastructure? Why?

janfromaztec 5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Stablecoin issuers require much less regulations because their activity is auditable onchain. If they start misbehaving they get regulated by the free market - people will stop using the given stablecoin and move to a competition.

angry_albatross 5 days ago | parent [-]

You think that the free market has regulated or audited Tether? I don't think so, that company is about as sketchy as it is possible to be, and yet it continues to dominate the stablecoin market.

jekrb 5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

the excuse is actually the other way around i think

banks are an excuse to have closed source ledgers that don't operate efficiently for internet capital markets

if they wanted to, they could open source their ledgers and let anyone make them faster, more interoperable, more programmable, etc.

stablecoins operate on infra that is more like linux for finance, anyone can contribute to blockchain rails and even run their own nodes

grafmax 5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

The issue with stablecoins is not just regulatory. They are fragile to market shocks.

drumdance 5 days ago | parent [-]

How so? Stable coins issued under the GENIUS Act are fully reserved, unlike regular banks.

grafmax 5 days ago | parent [-]

They’re backed by treasuries and subject to treasury market shocks (like the March 2020’s dash for cash). Large redemptions can see a feedback loop of redemption -> rushed selling -> treasury market stress -> redemption. Exactly the sort of scenario one might expect as the secular trend of the weakening dollar bubbles to the market’s surface.

Stablecoins hold a sizable portion of the treasury market - https://fintelegram.com/stablecoins-became-a-top-20-us-debt-...

all2 6 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Government granted licenses are the root of many, many ills.

Bjartr 6 days ago | parent [-]

They're also the solution to many. Like any tool, they can be used well or used poorly. It's not really sufficient to call out that they can be problematic, it needs to be down that they are problematic in this case and that an unregulated system wouldn't simply trade present downsides with larger ones that the regular holds at bay.

6 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]
[deleted]
5 days ago | parent | prev [-]
[deleted]