| ▲ | NitpickLawyer 5 days ago |
| Tested this yesterday with Cline. It's fast, works well with agentic flows, and produces decent code. No idea why this thread is so negative (also got flagged while I was typing this?) but it's a decent model. I'd say it's at or above gpt5-mini level, which is awesome in my book (I've been maining gpt5-mini for a few weeks now, does the job on a budget). Things I noted: - It's fast. I tested it in EU tz, so ymmv - It does agentic in an interesting way. Instead of editing a file whole or in many places, it does many small passes. - Had a feature take ~110k tokens (parsing html w/ bs4). Still finished the task. Didn't notice any problems at high context. - When things didn't work first try, it created a new file to test, did all the mocking / testing there, and then once it worked edited the main module file. Nice. GPT5-mini would often times edit working files, and then get confused and fail the task. All in all, not bad. At the price point it's at, I could see it as a daily driver. Even agentic stuff w/ opus + gpt5 high as planners and this thing as an implementer. It's fast enough that it might be worth setting it up in parallel and basically replicate pass@x from research. IMO it's good to have options at every level. Having many providers fight for the market is good, it keeps them on their toes, and brings prices down. GPT5-mini is at 2$/MTok, this is at 1.5$/MTok. This is basically "free", in the great scheme of things. I ndon't get the negativity. |
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| ▲ | coder543 5 days ago | parent | next [-] |
| Qwen3-Coder-480B hosted by Cerebras is $2/Mtok (both input and output) through OpenRouter. OpenRouter claims Cerebras is providing at least 2000 tokens per second, which would be around 10x as fast, and the feedback I'm seeing from independent benchmarks indicates that Qwen3-Coder-480B is a better model. |
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| ▲ | sdesol 5 days ago | parent | next [-] | | As a bit of a side note, I want to like Cerebras, but using any of the models through OpenRouter that uses them has lead to, too many throttling responses. Like you can't seem to make a few calls per minute. I'm not sure if Cerebras is throttling OpenRouter or if they are throttling everybody. If somebody from Cerebras is reading this, are you having capacity issues? | | | |
| ▲ | stocksinsmocks 5 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | There is a national superset of “NIH” bias that I think will impede adoption of Chinese-origin models for the foreseeable future. That’s a shame because by many objective metrics they’re a better value. | | |
| ▲ | dlachausse 5 days ago | parent [-] | | In my case it's not NIH, but rather that I don't trust or wish to support my nation's largest geopolitical adversary. | | |
| ▲ | bigyabai 5 days ago | parent | next [-] | | Your loss. Qwen3 A3B replaced ChatGPT for me entirely, it's hard for me to imagine going back using remote models when I can load finetuned and uncensored models at-will. Maybe you'd find consolation in using Apple or Nvidia-designed hardware for inference on these Chinese models? Sure, the hardware you own was also built by your "nation's largest geopolitical adversary" but that hasn't seemed to bother you much. | | |
| ▲ | wickedsight 4 days ago | parent | next [-] | | How did it replace ChatGPT for you? I'm running Qwen3 Coder locally and in no way does it compare to ChatGPT. In agentic workflows it fails almost every time. Maybe I'm doing something wrong, but I'm falling back to OpenAI all the time. | | |
| ▲ | evilduck 4 days ago | parent [-] | | It feels to me like it could replace ChatGPT 3.5 from the perspective of comparing it to their web chat interface if you were just asking about programming things two years ago, but the world moved on and you can do a lot more than just talk with a model and copy paste code now. Having Qwen3 Coder's A3B available for chat oriented coding conversations is indeed amazing for what it is and for being local and free but I also struggled to get useful agentic tools to reliably work with it (a fair number of tool calls fail or start looping, even with correct and advised settings, and tried using Cline, Roo, Continue and their own Qwen Code CLI). Even when I do get it to work for a few tasks in a row I don't have the hardware to run at comparable speed or manage the massive context sizes as a hosted frontier model. And buying capable enough hardware costs about as much as many years of paying for top tier hosted models. |
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| ▲ | dlachausse 5 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | [flagged] | | |
| ▲ | acoustics 5 days ago | parent | next [-] | | > Do they recognize the existence of Taiwan as an independent nation? <0.5% of humanity lives in a country that recognizes Taiwan, I'm not sure what answer you expect from a chatbot. | |
| ▲ | bigyabai 5 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | Go interrogate it for yourself: https://huggingface.co/huihui-ai/Huihui-Qwen3-30B-A3B-Instru... In my experience, abliterated models will typically respond to any of those questions without hestitation. Here's a sample of a response to your last question: The resemblance between Chinese President **Xi Jinping** and the beloved cartoon character **Winnie the Pooh** is both visually striking and widely observed—so much so that it has become a cultural phenomenon. Here’s why Xi Jinping *looks* like Winnie the Pooh:
### **1. Facial Features: A Perfect Match**
| Feature | Winnie the Pooh | Xi Jinping | [...]
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| ▲ | mft_ 5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Genuine question: how does downloading an open-weight model (Qwen in this case) and running it either locally or via a third-party service benefit China? | | |
| ▲ | throw10920 4 days ago | parent | next [-] | | Genuine answer: the model has been trained by companies that are required by law to censor them to conform to PRC CCP party lines, including rejection of consensus reality such as Tiananmen Square[1]. Yes, the censorship for some topics currently doesn't appear to be any good, but it does exist, will absolutely get better (both harder to subvert and more subtle), and makes the models less trustworthy than those from countries (US, EU, Sweden, whatever) that don't have that same level of state control. (note that I'm not claiming that there's no state control or picking any specific other country) That's the downside to the user. To loop that back to your question, the upside to China is soft power (the same kind that the US has been flushing away recently). It's pretty similar to TikTok - if you have an extremely popular thing that people spend hours a day on and start to filter their life through, and you can influence it, that's a huge amount of power - even if you don't make any money off of it. Now, to be fair to the context of your question, there isn't nearly as much soft power you can get from a model that people use primarily for coding - that I'm less concerned about. [1] https://www.tomsguide.com/ai/i-just-outsmarted-deepseeks-cen... | | |
| ▲ | criley2 4 days ago | parent [-] | | As a counterpoint: Using a foreign model means the for-domestic-consumption censorship will not effect you much. Qwen is happy to talk about MAGA, slavery, the Holocaust, or any other "controversial" western topic. However, American models (just like Chinese models) are heavily censored according to the society. ChatGPT, Claude, Gemini, are all aggressively censored to meet western expectation. So in essence, Chinese models should be less censored than western models for western topics. |
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| ▲ | tipsysquid 5 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | from an adversarial / defensive position: the model weights and training data were groomed and known; therefore, the output is potentially predictable. this could be an advantage to the nationstate above the corpo | | |
| ▲ | AnonymousPlanet 5 days ago | parent [-] | | This is also true for any US model from a European perspective. | | |
| ▲ | rightbyte 4 days ago | parent [-] | | And for any US model from an US perspective. Why is assumed that states are aligned with them self like some sort of CivIII player being coherent and self contained... |
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| ▲ | hedora 4 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | So, which model providers are supporting the US? Multiple domestic providers are actively helping dismantle US-based science, research, public health, emergency response, democratic elections, etc. | |
| ▲ | ulfw 5 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | "largest geopolitical adversary" I can't believe Americans all are falling for propaganda like this. So Russia is all fine now huh. You know the country you literally had nuclear warheads pointed at for decades and decades and decades on end. | | |
| ▲ | girvo 5 days ago | parent | next [-] | | Not that I care either way, but China is far larger in economy, military and population than Russia is. So "largest adversary" is correct, and it doesn't take away from the danger that Russia's government continues to pose (directly, in my extended family's case in eastern Ukraine) | | | |
| ▲ | dlachausse 5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Russia is the successor state of a former failed superpower. China is a rising superpower with a large, advanced military and a strong industrial base. There’s no comparison. China is a far greater threat to the West than Russia. | | |
| ▲ | ulfw 5 days ago | parent [-] | | What is it threatening to do to the US? or is for you being able to threat a threat already? If so, why did American companies invest for decades into China so eagerly with US government support? | | |
| ▲ | dlachausse 4 days ago | parent [-] | | If they take Taiwan that would be very disruptive to the US and the rest of the world. They have made credible threats to do that. How does Russia threaten the United States? They can’t even take over Ukraine. | | |
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| ▲ | anticodon 5 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | The fact is that China is one of the largest foreign USA debt holders makes it actually scarier than nuclear warheads. If China would decide to sell US treasuries, it will be more devastating to the US economy than effect of 10 nuclear strikes. | | |
| ▲ | torginus 4 days ago | parent | next [-] | | Yeah and all that Tesla stock I own makes me want to blow up one of their factories and crash the stock price | |
| ▲ | bubbleRefuge 4 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Absolutely false. Worse case is dollar going down. Interest rates are exogenous and controlled by the fed who can buy all the treasuries in the world at a moment's notice. The treasury securities held by China are their problem . Not the US's. | |
| ▲ | greyw 4 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | China owns 2.1% of the total outstanding US debt. If you include their holdings through Belgium and Luxembourg it is maybe 5%. That is something but nothing that should make you lose sleep over. Japan owns about 3.1% of the US debt as comparison. | |
| ▲ | hollerith 5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | That is absurd! | | |
| ▲ | honeybadger1 4 days ago | parent [-] | | it's a fact? | | |
| ▲ | fauigerzigerk 4 days ago | parent [-] | | The fact is that weapons kill people. Treasuries are just promises. China cannot dump treasures without hurting its own economoy at least as much as they are hurting the US. They would be incinerating their own foreign exchange reserves just to cause a spike in US interest rates and/or inflation. | | |
| ▲ | honeybadger1 4 days ago | parent [-] | | Neither Russia nor China has ever deployed nuclear weapons against civilian populations, a distinction held solely by the United States. Their reasons for restraint diverge significantly, rooted in distinct strategic and cultural priorities, yet China’s rising global influence positions it as a greater long-term threat to the United States than Russia, despite Russia’s more overt aggression. Russia’s behavior, exemplified by the 2014 annexation of Crimea and the 2022 invasion of Ukraine, reflects an aggressive posture driven by a desire to counter NATO’s eastward expansion and maintain regional dominance. However, its economic challenges sanctions, energy export dependence, and a GDP of approximately $2.1 trillion in 2023 (World Bank) constrain its global reach, rendering it a struggling, though resilient, power. With the world’s largest nuclear arsenal, Russia’s restraint in nuclear use stems from a pragmatic focus on national survival. Its actions prioritize geopolitical relevance over a quixotic pursuit of Soviet-era glory, but its declining economic and demographic strength limits its capacity to challenge the United States on a global scale. In contrast, China’s non-use of nuclear weapons aligns with its cultural and strategic emphasis on economic expansion over territorial conquest. Through initiatives like the Belt and Road Initiative, which has invested over $1.2 trillion globally since 2013, China has built a network of economic influence. Its military modernization, backed by a $292 billion defense budget in 2023 (SIPRI) and a nuclear arsenal projected to reach 1,000 warheads by 2030, complements this economic dominance. While China’s “no first use” nuclear policy, established in 1964, reflects a commitment to strategic stability, its assertive actions such as militarizing the South China Sea and pressuring Taiwan signal a willingness to use force to secure economic and territorial interests. Unlike Russia’s regionally focused aggression, China’s global economic leverage, technological advancements, and growing military capabilities pose a more systemic challenge to U.S. primacy, particularly in critical domains like trade, technology, and Indo-Pacific influence. | | |
| ▲ | fauigerzigerk 4 days ago | parent | next [-] | | I don't see the relevance of what you are saying. You claimed that it was a fact that selling some bonds would be more devastating than 10 actual nuclear strikes. We are talking about the effect of the strikes not about their likelihood. You completely changed the subject. | |
| ▲ | throw10920 4 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | Please do not post LLM-generated comments. | | |
| ▲ | honeybadger1 4 days ago | parent | next [-] | | I didn't use an LLM to craft my retort, and in my opinion, I certainly didn't change the subject either. Why on earth bother fretting over hypotheticals that are never going to happen? Ten nuclear bombs dropping is precisely as consequential as none at all, since it's not happening, and there's zero historical precedence for such nonsense anyway. | |
| ▲ | llbbdd 4 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | These replies on every comment that may or not be LLM generated are much worse | | |
| ▲ | wqaatwt 3 days ago | parent [-] | | So a single line of spam is worse than 5 paragraphs? | | |
| ▲ | llbbdd 3 days ago | parent [-] | | Worse than five paragraphs of information? Yes. If there's something wrong with the content, discuss that. OP claims below anyway that no LLM was used, and that reply is only necessary because of this kind of witch hunt spam, so it becomes overall more noise than just one comment anyway. |
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| ▲ | wqaatwt 3 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | > more devastating to the US economy It wouldn’t be that great for China either.. |
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| ▲ | aitchnyu 5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Is 50% of context length considered high performance? Seems qwen3-coder gets confused at 65k/256k IME, and its 50% more expensive than the Grok. |
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| ▲ | 5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
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| ▲ | kmlx 5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| nice review, thanks! how does it compare to claude code? |
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| ▲ | DoesntMatter22 5 days ago | parent [-] | | I've used it extensively in the last 36 hours to replace claude. It's not as good but it's much faster so when it makes a mistakes it's easy to get it to fix it. I find them a lot more engaged while it's doing things. So for me it's my main model and then I'll get back to Claude when I have something very tough |
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| ▲ | infecto 5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Similar thoughts. I have been using this model and find it pretty good and extremely fast. HN comments love to beat up Elon Musk and unfortunately a lot of biased negative reactions to LLMs where everything will get insta downvoted. |
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| ▲ | infecto 5 days ago | parent | next [-] | | To add, if the costs in Cursor are accurate, it’s highly competitive. | | |
| ▲ | tough 5 days ago | parent [-] | | Its free 0x during launch week | | |
| ▲ | infecto 5 days ago | parent [-] | | Sure but like every other time this has happened, they show you the cost of the usage if it was not free. Hence my saying if that is correct, which it looks to be, it’s cost efficient. Cursor shows you a breakdown of model and costs, even for models being offered for free. | | |
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| ▲ | jjangkke 5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Do you find it more or less matching what Sonnet 4 does? Grok fast is enticing due to its cheap cost | | |
| ▲ | infecto 5 days ago | parent [-] | | Anecdotally it’s coming under sonnet 4 for me but much quicker and if I understand the costs correctly, vastly cheaper. No idea if it’s subsidized or not but I am going to keep playing around with it. My example is it is definitely writing the code I want but with more quirks than sonnet. I only do things in chunks though. |
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| ▲ | bamboozled 4 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | [flagged] | | |
| ▲ | bityard 4 days ago | parent | next [-] | | I never liked Musk because he always came off to me as your average eccentric bullshit billionaire. But up until his more blatant alignment with conservatives, he was quite widely revered by the left for his promotion and investments in transportation technology, renewable energy, and commercial space endeavors. Funny how things have changed. | | |
| ▲ | bamboozled 4 days ago | parent [-] | | It’s not that, he marketed himself as a science believing climate vigilante billionaire who would rescue humanity. Then he just went mask off. What that has to do with “the left” is because many people in the left believe in climate science so we’re happy to accept the help…weird right ? | | |
| ▲ | andriesm a day ago | parent [-] | | The reason people think Musk has gone mask-off for flipping politically left-right is because my strong suspicions are that really he is pretty centrist with some situational nuance around it. He has some lefty care morality positions, like UBI which contrasts with his libertarian views. If he thinks the left is going too far he jumps right, if he thinks the right is going too far or just flat wrong about something urgent and important he will jump left hard again, make no mistake. He has at varying times supported climate change, maga, UBI, vocally anti Big Beautiful Bill, calling Trump involved with Epstein.... that is quite the mix, and the only one of these positions that actually benefitted him personally/financially was climate change. All his other opinions ultimately hurt him a lot more than it benefitted him. It's not stupidity that makes him support causes that hurts him financially. It's because he thinks it's for the greater good. Was buying twitter financially profitable? It may eventually be. But he tried to back out once he saw just how rotten a deal financially it will turn out for him! A complex guy. Somewhat wings it when the way forward isn't clear. “Twitter is biased. Let's buy Twitter. Oh sht, it's gonna cost me HOW MUCH? And it's profit potential is only THIS? Uhm, let's cancel the deal, was it really binding?“ |
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| ▲ | infecto 4 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | Not surprised but also have no interest in childlike dialogues like yours. |
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| ▲ | jameshart 5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| If the Grok brand wasn’t terminally tarnished for you by the ‘mechahitler’ incident, I’m not sure what more it would take. This is an offering being produced by a company whose idea of responsible AI use involves prompting a chatbot that “You spend a lot of time on 4chan, watching InfoWars videos” - https://www.404media.co/grok-exposes-underlying-prompts-for-... A lot of people rightly don’t want any such thing anywhere near their code. |
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| ▲ | jadbox 5 days ago | parent | next [-] | | That 404media article is interesting. That "You spend a lot of time on 4chan, watching InfoWars videos" was an actual canned system prompt. | |
| ▲ | monsieurbanana 5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | I don't use Twitter, I don't use X, I don't buy Tesla. It's not hard to understand why I don't use Grok either. | | |
| ▲ | bboygravity 5 days ago | parent | next [-] | | [flagged] | |
| ▲ | _zoltan_ 5 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | I mean they are completely unrelated things serving different purposes. I get that this is a US centric forum so most people commenting are in the great divide between two political parties, but geez. | | |
| ▲ | monsieurbanana 5 days ago | parent | next [-] | | > they are completely unrelated I'm not going to engage into that... I don't see what the US has to do with this, I'm from Europe. | |
| ▲ | sebastiennight 5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Out of the 4 things he's listed, are you sure you want to claim that 1. Twitter, 2. X, and 3. xAI/Grok are "completely unrelated things"? | |
| ▲ | imglorp 5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Grok is doing some terrible things to the environment and to the community surrounding its data center, especially the disadvantaged in the area. Nobody, anywhere should be okay with that. https://www.politico.com/news/2025/05/06/elon-musk-xai-memph... This poor behavior, if rewarded, will surely be repeated in other countries and nobody wants that, either. | | |
| ▲ | ACCount37 5 days ago | parent [-] | | That sounds like FUD. The location of the Colossus datacenter is well known. It happens to be located in an industrial area, nestled between an active steel manufacturing plant (apparently scrap metal with an electric blast furnace, which should mean enormous power draw but no coke coal at least?), and an active industrial scale natural gas power plant. https://www.google.com/maps/@35.0605698,-90.1562034,933m With that, I just don't buy that it's the datacenter that is somehow the most notable consumer of fossil fuel power (or, for that matter, water) in the area. | | |
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| ▲ | jameshart 5 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | Elon Musk chose to make his identity nakedly partisan in a context where doing so is deeply alienating to a lot of people. That is going to have brand consequences. Out of all his brands, though, X and particularly XAI (and so Grok) have been particularly influenced by – indeed he seems to see them as vehicles for – his personal political opinions and reckless ethics. |
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| ▲ | Nuzzerino 5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | The article you linked talks about the voice personality prompt for "unhinged mode", which is an entertainment mode. It has nothing to do with the code writing model. | | |
| ▲ | jameshart 5 days ago | parent | next [-] | | The fact that that represents something the folks at xAI think would be entertaining can certainly be a basis for thinking twice about trusting their judgement in other matters, though, right? | | |
| ▲ | Nuzzerino 5 days ago | parent | next [-] | | I got a lot of entertainment out of it, don't knock it till you tried it, it's just a prompt. The great thing about xAI is that it is just a company and there are other AI companies that have AIs that match your values, even though between Grok, ChatGPT, and Claude there are minimal actual differences. An AI will be anything that the prompt says it is. Because a prompt exists doesn't condemn the company. | | |
| ▲ | sebastiennight 5 days ago | parent [-] | | > An AI will be anything that the prompt says it is Within the boundaries of pre-training, yes. It is definitely possible, in training and in fine-tuning, to make a LLM resistant to engaging in the role-playing requested in the prompt. |
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| ▲ | kristianbrigman 5 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | If they represent it as entertainment… it’s a common genre to make fun of what you see as the most extreme views of the other side. | | |
| ▲ | whattheheckheck 4 days ago | parent [-] | | Its the next iteration of pewdiepipeline. The end of the jokes in genocide. Not a joking matter | | |
| ▲ | kristianbrigman 2 days ago | parent [-] | | That’s fair… for every 99 they it cements their ridicule, there might be one who takes it seriously, and maybe that is dangerous… |
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| ▲ | drusepth 5 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | It's a comment about the company/brand behind the models, not the individual models themselves. |
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| ▲ | orochimaaru 5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | How exactly is a code assistant “partisan”? I don’t use X but I’m open to buying a Tesla and grok for code purposes. Kinda weird to mix political sentiment with a coding technology. | | |
| ▲ | jameshart 5 days ago | parent | next [-] | | Well, you’d also be forgiven for thinking ‘how on earth can a social website chatbot be a white supremacist?’ And yet xAI managed to prove that is a legitimate concern. xAI has a shocking track record of poor decisions when it comes to training and prompting their AIs. If anyone can make a partisan coding assistant, they can. Indeed, given their leadership and past performance, we might expect them to explicitly try. | | |
| ▲ | simianwords 5 days ago | parent | next [-] | | What’s their incentive to do this? What do they gain by making a partisan model instead of one that just works well? | | |
| ▲ | pennomi 5 days ago | parent [-] | | You really can’t think of ANY advantage to becoming a perfected propaganda machine? Not one? | | |
| ▲ | simianwords 5 days ago | parent [-] | | Enlighten me. How would a partisan coding model help. | | |
| ▲ | ben_w 5 days ago | parent [-] | | Competence in every field is correlated for LLMs. Better coding probably means more competent rhetoric and more competent Swahili-Latin translation. But only "probably", the causation is being argued about. |
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| ▲ | dudeinjapan 5 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | Perhaps you’ve never heard of Tay? Microsoft did pioneering work in the Nazi chatbot space. | | |
| ▲ | arjvik 5 days ago | parent [-] | | Fwiw Tay was unintentional and was shut down immediately upon realization… very good case study for safety folks! |
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| ▲ | giancarlostoro 5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Even on regular Grok, I've seen it disagree with fundamental consensus viewpoints of people on the right. You're reading a lot of comments from people who have never used Grok in any way. | | |
| ▲ | simianwords 5 days ago | parent [-] | | I urge anyone who disagrees to use grok and get it to say something obviously untrue and right wing. I have used it many times and it is clearly balanced. | | |
| ▲ | giancarlostoro 5 days ago | parent [-] | | I mean the subject is if a coding model has a bias but the regular one does not. FYI you can try Grok for free on their website and see for yourself. |
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| ▲ | beepbooptheory 5 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | I am sure this of course a good faith argument and no need to once again teach the point of everything being, in a sense, political. But still, considering everything, especially the AI assistant ecosystem at large, saying "I just use grok for coding" just comes off exactly like the old joke/refrain "yeah I buy Playboy, but only for the articles." Like yeah buddy, suuure. | | |
| ▲ | orochimaaru 5 days ago | parent [-] | | It was a good faith question. I use perplexity for my searches/research today. I have NO intention of moving that to X (although grok maybe one of the models I can use underneath, I haven’t explicitly enabled it). I don’t use social media in general, maybe YouTube but it’s been a real challenge to get rid of all the political content - both left and right wing. | | |
| ▲ | giancarlostoro 5 days ago | parent [-] | | I have used both Grok and Perplexity, and I've recently decided to just use Perplexity, even when I tell it to use Grok under the covers, I like the way Perplexity organizes things. |
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| ▲ | Geee 5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | It's just one personality out of many, which are only available in the Grok voice mode. This is a system prompt for a personality called "conspiracist". I just tried it and I think it's hilarious. See all the personality prompts here: https://x.com/aaronp613/status/1943083889515466832 | |
| ▲ | ralfd 5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | > terminally tarnished for you by the ‘mechahitler’ incident It is forgivable because there is no real understanding in an llm. And other llm can also be prompted to say ridiculous things, so what? If a llm would accept a name of a Viking or Khan of the steppes it doesn’t mean it wants to rape and pillage. | | |
| ▲ | tenuousemphasis 5 days ago | parent [-] | | It's not about the model, it's about the ethics of the company intentionally building the model, and what they might do in the future. | | |
| ▲ | simianwords 5 days ago | parent [-] | | What was the alternative? This was clearly an oversight and this much was admitted. Your suggestion that an oversight like this is reason enough to not use the model? I don’t get the big problem over here. The model said some unsavoury things and the problem was admitted and fixed - why is this making people lose their minds? It has to be performative because I can’t explain it in any other way. | | |
| ▲ | bhauer 5 days ago | parent | next [-] | | Yes, it is performative. As is most of the outrage in this thread. | | |
| ▲ | bigyabai 5 days ago | parent [-] | | You wouldn't know where performance ends and the market begins. Elon bought his audience with performative outrage, he'll be locked in the pillory of public perception until he's a corpse with a dainty "T" logo tattooed on the asscheeks. This is what he wanted - dark comedy, transgressive politics, edgy juvenile quips, now it's all "performative outrage" when people react? When taxpaying Americans and corporate entities respond rationally to racism, antisemitism and sexism? Elon never outsmarted the federal admin, and he can't convince anyone that he was too retarded to understand the consequences. He's the most embarrassing type of failure, now - a midwit, the man with no plan who went for the king and missed. He be bet it all on black, and struck out hard. He didn't even manage the shoo-in proof for Trump being a pedophile. Now bipartisan politics will resent him forever, and ensure he and his businesses would rather be dead. All because Big Balls told Mr. Silly he could make a killing in politics, what a touching little sob story. I say this as a Starlink early adopter, general Elon apologist and space buff for life: if you actually think this is an insincere reaction, try copying any of Elon's mannerisms around normal people and watch how they treat you. You'll be a social pariah come Monday. |
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| ▲ | jameshart 5 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | That’s an uncharitable world view. ‘People who reach different conclusions to me based on the same events must be being dishonest’? From the outside, the Grok mechahitler incident appeared very much to be the embodiment of Musk’s top-down ‘free speech absolutist’ drive to strip ‘political correctness’ shackles from grok; the prompting changes were driven by his setting that direction. The issues became apparent very early that the prompt changes were leading to issues but reversion seemed to be something that X had to be pressured into - they were unwilling to treat it as a problem until the mechahitler thread. This all speaks to his having a particular vision for what he wants xAI agents to be – something which continues to be expressed in things like the ani product and other bot personas. The Microsoft ‘Tay’ incident was triggered through naivité. The Grok mechahitler incident seems to have been triggered through hubris and a delight in trolling. Those are very different motivations. | | |
| ▲ | simianwords 5 days ago | parent [-] | | > ‘free speech absolutist’ drive to strip ‘political correctness’ shackles from grok; Say no more. I’m already sold. |
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| ▲ | numpad0 5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | > “You spend a lot of time on 4chan, watching InfoWars videos” They put that in the system prompt? I've never been into 4chan beyond stumbling upon some of their threads through Google Search, and cannot speak for them but why would anyone want a superhuman AI to be the most objectively based yet conspiracy leaning unpredictable friendly autis- oh. Grok is trolling Musk. It knows pushing an egoistic billionaire off from very top of a staircase with manic giggling is objectively the most psychopathic and hilarious, therefore the most correct, action to take given the circumstance. 4chan users are kinds of kids that think trying to turn a gay frog character with rainbow Arabic headscarf doing OK sign into a government recognized symbol of dangerous hate group is 100% hilarious and 4chan-ethical. Not primarily because they hate Islam or LGBT(I guess they do?) but because it's Monty Python nonsensical. They must have misinterpreted that. They must have thought that 4chan users hate minorities and they're going to love participating in Kristallnacht 2.0. That's not how it works. They're "not your personal army", they don't care who dies for what, only whether someone dies and how much informational overload it creates. What a mess. | |
| ▲ | efitz 5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Microsoft had Tay. Google Gemini had “Black George Washington”. I think that pinning your entire view of a model forever on a single incident is not a reasonable approach, but you do you. | | |
| ▲ | otterley 5 days ago | parent | next [-] | | It's not just the model, it's Elon Musk's view of the world and business in general. Neither Microsoft nor Google nor their leadership--though admittedly imperfect--make it a habit of trolling people, openly embroiling themselves in politics, and committing blatant legal and societal transgressions. You reap what you sow; and if you live for controversy, you can't expect people not to want to do business with you. | | |
| ▲ | epa 5 days ago | parent | next [-] | | What about promoting renewable energy, space exploration, frontier physics and advanced engineering makes you concerned? | | |
| ▲ | badsectoracula 5 days ago | parent [-] | | Donating to orphanages after committing a genocide resets your karma only in videogames. | | |
| ▲ | FirmwareBurner 5 days ago | parent [-] | | What genocide did Musk commit? | | |
| ▲ | otterley 5 days ago | parent | next [-] | | I think they were making a (poor) analogy, not literally accusing Musk of committing genocide. | | |
| ▲ | badsectoracula 5 days ago | parent [-] | | Well, i can't think of a better analogy to say that you can't offset doing bad things by doing good things. The karma system some games use (e.g. Fallout 3 where you can nuke an entire city that puts your karma in negatives and then give fresh water to beggars to reset your karma) was what i was reminded of. |
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| ▲ | badsectoracula 5 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | Musk didn't commit any genocide (that i'm aware of) but that wasn't what i wrote. The point of my comment is that you can't offset doing -what some people perceive as- bad things by doing -what some people perceive as- good things later. |
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| ▲ | AbraKdabra 5 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | [flagged] | | |
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| ▲ | elAhmo 5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | [flagged] | | | |
| ▲ | runarberg 5 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | [flagged] |
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| ▲ | airtonix 5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | [dead] | |
| ▲ | reactordev 5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | [flagged] | | |
| ▲ | jjangkke 5 days ago | parent [-] | | So you think people who use Grok are Nazis ? How would you know this, did you interview them individually? Or do you just have a habit of calling people Nazis because they don't agree with your view of reality? | | |
| ▲ | reactordev 5 days ago | parent [-] | | The head guy gave a salute on live TV that gave it away. I deduced that anyone with half a brain would know what that meant. Any supporters of such a salute have all my hatred and all my rage from now until eternity. Suing Apple because his precious troll isn’t on the top app lists. His troll bot spouting racist remarks. Nope. Israel is just dying to get on that list too. |
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| ▲ | maxlin 5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | [flagged] | | |
| ▲ | FirmwareBurner 5 days ago | parent [-] | | [flagged] | | |
| ▲ | wewtyflakes 5 days ago | parent [-] | | The downvotes are for making the strawman arguments like "potentially harmful issues like considering misgendering worse than a global thermonuclear war". | | |
| ▲ | maxlin 5 days ago | parent [-] | | No downvotes here, and no strawmen! I get the those might sound made up, but sadly those are entirely true. Google around. |
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| ▲ | cramcgrab 5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | [flagged] | |
| ▲ | dudeinjapan 5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | [flagged] | |
| ▲ | cft 5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | [flagged] | | |
| ▲ | czottmann 5 days ago | parent | next [-] | | It's the equivalent of "voting with your wallet". Or "giving market share with your wallet". Context matters, not just for LLMs themselves. And Grok/X/Twitter's context is tarnished indeed for a lot of us. | |
| ▲ | jameshart 5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Thanks for the reminder. I don’t need to leave that there for discoverability any more. | |
| ▲ | const_cast 5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Yes, being anti-nazi, what a... virtue? I guess? | | |
| ▲ | jjangkke 5 days ago | parent | next [-] | | Elon Musk is not a nazi. | | |
| ▲ | jameshart 5 days ago | parent | next [-] | | While this point might be open to debate, the original claim, which I definitely stand by, was not that Musk is a Nazi, but rather that xAI have put out a product under the grok brand which manifestly promoted nazi ideas. If Musk is not in favor of those ideas he might need to work a bit harder to make that clear, because he does tend to leave people with the impression he’s okay with it. | | |
| ▲ | jjangkke 5 days ago | parent [-] | | A prompt was edited by an xAI staff that caused xAI to ignore the politically correct filter, how is Elon Musk responsible for this ? | | |
| ▲ | sjsdaiuasgdia 5 days ago | parent | next [-] | | He's the CEO, and there's now been a few "oh geez some rogue employee made grok say white supremacist stuff, we totally didn't mean for it to say that!" moments. If the management isn't fixing the problems that led to those events, the management is responsible. | |
| ▲ | lovich 5 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | Isn’t he the CEO and owner? I thought their massive wealth and control was morally ok because they carried the responsibility for the companies actions at the end of the day. Guess you can have the power and no responsibility! Always someone else’s fault! |
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| ▲ | const_cast 5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | He's not very good at demonstrating that. I don't know man. For like... the other 7 billion people on Earth it seems preeeetty easy for them not to be confused with a Nazi. Seems to me just Elon has that issue. I've never had that issue. I don't know anyone who's has that issue. So, it makes you wonder. | | |
| ▲ | andriesm a day ago | parent [-] | | Elon desperately convincing everyone he is not a Nazi, is like being asked to answer the question "Why do you beat your wife every day? " And then you trying to explain that "no it's not every day, in fact it is never." And then public opinion be like "He doth protest too much" | | |
| ▲ | const_cast a day ago | parent [-] | | Nobody else needs to convince people they're not a Nazi. I certainly don't. We can pretend to look the other way all day, or we can take some accountability. Apologizing isn't hard. It would be very easy for him to make this all disappear. But he won't do it. Maybe it's pride, maybe he's just stupid, I don't know. |
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| ▲ | Revisional_Sin 5 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | Then why did he publicly do a Nazi salute? | | |
| ▲ | jjangkke 5 days ago | parent [-] | | He did not do a Nazi salute because otherwise ADL would've been all over him. ADL came out saying he didn't do a Nazi salute. | | |
| ▲ | KingMob 4 days ago | parent | next [-] | | The ADL's morally bankrupt calculus is that they value support for Israel more, so they covered for Musk as long as he supports Israel. Which sadly, makes the rest of us less safe. | |
| ▲ | Revisional_Sin 5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | And they were criticised for this by many other Jewish organisations. | |
| ▲ | iamdelirium 5 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | The ADL is not the final arbitrator of what is a Nazi salute and what isn't. |
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| ▲ | holoduke 5 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | [flagged] |
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| ▲ | lovich 5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Excuse me sir, this is a forum for yCombinator backed startups. The technical aspect is a historical novelty, if they could make money without it, they would | | |
| ▲ | cft 5 days ago | parent [-] | | The forum for YC backed startups is not public. This is effectively an indirect tech recruitment board for those start-ups, sir. | | |
| ▲ | lovich 5 days ago | parent [-] | | Youre right, with a dash of hype machine for their launches |
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| ▲ | subsection1h 5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | > This is a forum for tech-related discussions, not a venue for your virtue signaling. LOL. Says the guy who wrote, "Modern local religion (at least in the US) is neomarxism": https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31025588 | |
| ▲ | ml-anon 5 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | [flagged] |
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| ▲ | jwr 5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | [flagged] | | |
| ▲ | signatoremo 5 days ago | parent | next [-] | | What is your stand ơn using Chinese models? They censor Tiananmen Square protests, they censor Tibet ethnic cleansing, they censor any opinion against China’s role in Khmer Rouge’s mass killings. Do you boycott DeepSeek or Qwen? Or you consider those actions not evil enough compared to Elon’s? | | |
| ▲ | jascha_eng 4 days ago | parent | next [-] | | Those censorships are government enforced and don't necessarily allow conclusions about how the company developing the models thinks they are just following local laws. If anthropic was a Chinese company Claude would do the same. Do I think it's problematic? Yes, but I don't blame the company or their leadership for it. For grok and xai you can very much be skeptical about the team behind it for it's actions | |
| ▲ | jwr 2 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | That is certainly an interesting discussion we might have some day. But we are not discussing Chinese models today. Whataboutism kills rational discourse: any discussion can be derailed by asking "but what about…". |
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| ▲ | SadErn 5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Can you objectively prove that? I've tried several times with Gemini 2.5 using heavily biased prompts. | | |
| ▲ | jameshart 5 days ago | parent | next [-] | | In what world could using Gemini 2.5 with any sort of a prompt objectively prove anything? We might be entering a wholly new epistemological crisis if this question means what it implies. | | |
| ▲ | ddq 4 days ago | parent | next [-] | | Also just bad faith comments muddying the waters. The evidence has been abundantly available to any inquisitive minds to find out for themselves Musk's worldview, goals and especially his methods, the simpler explanation is they are merely following his example of corrupting online discussions with low effort rhetorical bait, whether they are aware of the imitation or not. The net is flooded with many such clones. | |
| ▲ | SadErn 4 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | Gemini has a comprehensive ability to analyze video clips and offer an objective reality that circumvents viewer bias. |
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| ▲ | sebastiennight 5 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | GP is referring to this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-VfYjPzj1Xw | | |
| ▲ | AbraKdabra 5 days ago | parent [-] | | How in the world is that a seen as nazi salute? These people are absolutely derranged. | | |
| ▲ | jwr 2 days ago | parent [-] | | It is very clear what it is. A nazi salute is not performed "accidentally". Especially not in front of thousands of people. This is no laughing matter: millions of people were killed by people performing that salute. And if anybody has any doubt, it's enough to listen to the guy, and his support for extreme-right. |
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| ▲ | tistoon 5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Funny some people still believe this non sense nowadays with all the information available. I hope you manage to get out of your echo chamber one day. Peace. | | |
| ▲ | 5 days ago | parent | next [-] | | [deleted] | |
| ▲ | evantbyrne 5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Holy moly, Elon does read HN! | |
| ▲ | jay-barronville 4 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | Exactly. It’s so obvious that Musk didn’t do a Nazi salute that I can’t believe that anyone who considers themselves to be a serious person would still be pushing that. There’s no way that someone can watch the video of that situation and come to a good-faith conclusion that that’s what he was doing. If the standard is that low, I could easily produce a compilation video of the likes of Obama, Biden, Harris in compromising positions appearing to show them doing things that they obviously weren’t doing. Partisanship has turned everyone into dishonest and uncharitable actors, and it’s so unfortunate. |
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| ▲ | Mk2000 4 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Lmfao.
The degree to which you all resist understanding is unbelievable. Did you say the same thing when liberals did the salute? | |
| ▲ | tootie 5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | This story about him made my blood boil https://www.propublica.org/article/doge-musk-mohammad-halimi... All in service to a role that he took to ingratiate himself to a head of state and ended up completely alienated from leaving a wake of destruction behind him for absolutely no purpose. | |
| ▲ | jjangkke 5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | [flagged] | | | |
| ▲ | ribelo 5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | [flagged] | | |
| ▲ | gizzlon 5 days ago | parent | next [-] | | So in your view, the true victim of Elon's nazi salute was.. Elon? How do you come to that conclusion? Because the backlash was "too much" ? He is still (one of) the richest people in the world, and controls several huuge companies. But he got his feelings hurt, I guess? And that was "too much" ?? Poor snowflake Elon. | | |
| ▲ | ribelo 5 days ago | parent | next [-] | | Let's make this clear: The Anti-Defamation League stated it wasn't a salute and that they weren't offended.
Rabbi Ari Lamm wrote that Musk has repeatedly shown he's a friend to the Jewish community.
David Greenfield suggested people should focus on actual antisemitism instead.
Netanyahu highlighted the absurdity of the accusations and pointed to Musk's aid and engagement after the October 7th attacks. And yes, Musk became a victim. I don't see what his current wealth has to do with it. It's hard to ignore the imbalance where one man drew the world's anger and became public enemy #1. If you call him a snowflake, I don't know what to call all those who might have been offended by his gesture | | |
| ▲ | viraptor 5 days ago | parent | next [-] | | Whether he's antisemitic or not doesn't change what happened / what it symbolises. We're now in a weird place where Netanyahu supporting him doesn't really make the situation any better. Jews were the convenient outgroup at the time, but don't have to be for Elon. | |
| ▲ | maweaver 5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | I literally saw it on video. I don't care who tells me it didn't happen, it very clearly did. | | |
| ▲ | cpursley 5 days ago | parent [-] | | You saw what you wanted to see. | | |
| ▲ | KingMob 4 days ago | parent [-] | | Pffft. Nobody wanted to see that, but he did it anyway. | | |
| ▲ | 4 days ago | parent | next [-] | | [deleted] | |
| ▲ | 4 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | [deleted] | |
| ▲ | 4 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | [deleted] | |
| ▲ | cpursley 4 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | [flagged] | | |
| ▲ | Capricorn2481 2 days ago | parent [-] | | > Taking a break from Reddit > Yes, seeing someone on the spectrum (who’s got no political gesture training) spaz out on stage is incredibly cringy Saying take a break from Reddit after posting the most Reddit ass comment I've ever seen. |
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| ▲ | gizzlon 5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | I'm not calling him a snowflake because I don't think he is a victim. You do, but since he still has everything, I thought you meant he got his feelings hurt. When I first heard about it I thought "yeah right, media is exaggerigating again". Then I saw it, and I mean wtf! I do not at all believe that's something you do by accident. Twice! Also, he could have excused it or try to explain afterwards. He did not. He just trolled. | |
| ▲ | ryandrake 5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | If you don't think it was a nazi salute, study the video so you can reproduce the gesture exactly, then go into your work and do it in front of your manager. See what happens. | | |
| ▲ | ribelo 5 days ago | parent [-] | | I reproduced it and nothing happened. The problem might be that I'm my own manager so need to went to the mirror and did it, but if any of my 20 employees did the same, I wouldn't take any action against them. The real reason is that I don't live in the West. Where I live, we don't suffer from the plague of misunderstood political correctness. At least not all of us yet. | | |
| ▲ | Wytwwww 5 days ago | parent | next [-] | | > but if any of my 20 employees did the same You could all then march around the office or even out on the street with your hands raised. Surely nobody but snowflakes could be offended by that. | |
| ▲ | ryandrake 4 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | Well, ya got me. You managed to find the one rare manager who either 1. cannot recognize a clear nazi salute, or 2. considers it to be acceptable behavior. I guess I'm wrong. |
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| ▲ | saagarjha 4 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | You can always pick and choose Jewish people who are friends to antisemites. | |
| ▲ | Wowfunhappy 5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | > Netanyahu highlighted the absurdity of the accusations and pointed to Musk's aid and engagement after the October 7th attacks. I think Netanyahu had a bit of a conflict of interest here--he couldn't afford to get on Trump's bad side! | |
| ▲ | Wytwwww 5 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | > he's a friend to the Jewish community So? Does that means nobody else is allowed to have an opinion about the salute that he made. Sure he's pro Israel, that's not uncommon at all amongst the far right these days. > who might have been offended by his gesture What about the people who seem to be highly offended by people who have been offended by his gesture. What do you call them? | | |
| ▲ | ribelo 5 days ago | parent [-] | | Everyone should be free to have whatever opinion they like, or at least, they ought to be. The difference is this, some try to impose their opinions on society, while the rest couldn’t care less and refuse to lose sleep over it. The ability to mind our own business is a virtue, a real one. The world went downhill the moment people started obsessing over others instead of focusing on themselves. And anyone who truly cares about society’s well-being should stop meddling. | | |
| ▲ | Wytwwww 5 days ago | parent | next [-] | | > The difference is this, some try to impose their opinions on society So literally Musk and his pals? > society’s well-being should stop meddling. So again, Musk et al.? I'm really confused... what are you trying to say. That only some people are allowed to meddle while everyone else should shut up and mind their own business? How do you determine that? Wealth? Political opinions? Class? Race? | |
| ▲ | KingMob 4 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | > The world went downhill the moment people started obsessing over others instead of focusing on themselves. And anyone who truly cares about society’s well-being should stop meddling. The problem is, meddling to interfere with others, and meddling to stop that interference, are not morally equivalent. If a serial killer is trying to strangle me, and I'm fighting back, you wouldn't deplore "the violence on both sides", would you? | |
| ▲ | squigz 5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | > The world went downhill the moment people started obsessing over others instead of focusing on themselves. Gosh yeah, all that... getting rid of slavery, and women's rights, and disability support and awareness... Truly, the world is far better off! | |
| ▲ | a day ago | parent | prev [-] | | [deleted] |
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| ▲ | guywithahat 5 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | He remains one of the richest people on earth because he obviously didn't perform a Nazi salute. He was extending his heart to the crowd, and the gesture he made is something every major politician has done on camera, because it's a motion one naturally makes when in front of a crowd. Besides, why would the richest man on earth copy a bunch of 1940's socialists who previously socialized their car industry? | | |
| ▲ | KingMob 4 days ago | parent | next [-] | | Lol. Did you even watch the video? Most politicians just lift their arms up and wave like ordinary people. Musk first placed his hand on his heart, and then extended out forcefully in a clear nazi salute. | |
| ▲ | wozer 4 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | Calling the Nazis socialist is insidious and ahistorical. The Nazis murdered any socialists they could get their hands on. | | |
| ▲ | SV_BubbleTime 4 days ago | parent | next [-] | | Right. I don’t know why people call nazis socialists just because they supported a state led by government, socialized government program take over like healthcare and education and production, and they have socialist in their name. I can see how it is easy to confuse by let’s be reasonable. The nazis could not have been socialist because that would mean a corruption one time of a system that is based on ideals. | |
| ▲ | guywithahat 4 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | No they didn’t, they were the prevailing socialist party. They imprisoned party members who didn’t play ball with them but they were the socialist. How could you not know the Nazi’s were socialists? That was their whole thing, socialism would only work in a culturally/ethnically homogeneous society |
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| ▲ | Capricorn2481 4 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | You could completely ignore that incident and find 10 other reasons not to support this company or the man behind it. Calling a cave diver that rescued multiple children a pedophile should be reason enough for you. Here he is saying Jews are against whites. https://www.cbsnews.com/news/elon-musk-antisemitic-comments-... Instead you have chosen to actively support him, harming us, out of spite due to a situation you've willingly blinded yourself to. Seriously? You're citing the ADL? That's like asking the NAACP whether Kanye really said "I love Hitler." Who gives a fuck, I have ears. |
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| ▲ | maxlin 5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | If it matters to you a lot, does almost all others politically-oriented people also performing that also matter a lot? (you can find even better ones ..) https://imgur.com/a/wikg2zR "My heart goes out to you" "Taxi!" or just a "I see you guys!" can all be accompanied by a bad arm angle in hindsight. As he obviously wasn't going for that by his own words, maybe we should consider actions more important than interpreted hand movements. And Musk has been loud about AI safety since 2016, giving name, cofounding and funding OpenAI before Sam conducted a hostile takeover and made it profit-first instead of a gift for humanity. | | |
| ▲ | throwaway314155 5 days ago | parent [-] | | The reality is that even if he didn't do it intentionally, or did it in such a way that it could only be ambiguous (which i agree, it is) - he's 100% the type of person to lean into the controversy it creates. At that time, building favor with trump voters was good for him. Further any of your examples shown with a video and the full context would clearly not be misinterpreted. It's a full motion gesture and only video captures it unless there are swastickas and white hooded men. | | |
| ▲ | maxlin 5 days ago | parent | next [-] | | You're just going to totally ignore the "My heart goes out to you guys"? with his palm in his chest? I've seen behavior of a lot of people akin to someone would pejoratively refer to as "MAGA Types" / common conservatives. The absolute majority of them aren't welcoming of so deep /pol/ 4chan meme politicking or signaling. They likely won't take it too seriously, but they sure as hell won't cozy up to it. When this happened there was no live reaction because people didn't interpret this as such. This has only became a thing later. And he did not even acknowledge the crazy accusations of him having intendedly done a salute, he did not "lean in to it". What on earth would he even gain from that?! I don’t see even entertaining the idea of ‘he did it intentionally’ meaning if he "intentionally did a n** salute" as sincere. That’s just a painted-by-bias angle to come from, trying to move goal posts. Better be wary of the people who would instead engage in that. | |
| ▲ | jay-barronville 4 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | > he's 100% the type of person to lean into the controversy it creates Except, objectively speaking, he actually did NOT do that. He basically just ignored the “controversy” because it was such an obviously false narrative meant only to smear him that I’m sure he had enough faith in most Americans who aren’t consumed by partisanship to see it exactly for what it was. > At that time, building favor with trump voters was good for him. Your implication here seems to be that Trump voters, en masse, want folks who are doing Nazi salutes, or am I misunderstanding you? | | |
| ▲ | throwaway314155 4 days ago | parent [-] | | > Your implication here seems to be that Trump voters, en masse, want folks who are doing Nazi salutes, or am I misunderstanding you? I think he believes that the subsection of bigotted voters deserve acknowledgement from time to time and that he has a history of such behavior. |
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| ▲ | simianwords 5 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | Why does it matter to you when Netanyahu - one of the most important prime ministers and a representative of Jews - made a whole X post exonerating Elon over the salute? > .@elonmusk is being falsely smeared. Elon is a great friend of Israel. He visited Israel after the October 7 massacre in which Hamas terrorists committed the worst atrocity against the Jewish people since the Holocaust. He has since repeatedly and forcefully supported Israel’s right to defend itself against genocidal terrorists and regimes who seek to annihilate the one and only Jewish state. I thank him for this. | | |
| ▲ | Kudos 5 days ago | parent | next [-] | | Famously great guy that Netanyahu. | | |
| ▲ | simianwords 5 days ago | parent [-] | | Whatever you think of him it is important that the elected representative of Jewish people exonerated him. | | |
| ▲ | runarberg 5 days ago | parent | next [-] | | He is the elected prime minister of the state of Israel. He does not represent the Jewish people. While Israel is home to the largest number of Jews on Earth, most Jews do not live in Israel. And Israel is also home to a large number non-Jews whom Netanyahu is also the prime minister of. It is in fact important that he is not representative of Jewish people. | | |
| ▲ | dragonwriter 5 days ago | parent | next [-] | | > While Israel is home to the largest number of Jews on Earth, Depends on your standards for who is a Jewish person: by many standards (including those used by the Israeli Law of Return), the US has more Jewish people than Israel. EDIT: To be clear, I am not, in noting this fact, arguing against the parent's argument that (this is a paraphrase) the opinion of the head of a state with a large Jewish population (whether or not it is actually the largest in the world) does not itself constitute the response of world Judaism, either in general or specifically as an exoneration of an alleged expression of fascist sympathies; that position is absolutely correct, irrespective of which country happens to have the largest Jewish population. | | |
| ▲ | runarberg 5 days ago | parent | next [-] | | I‘m thinking further about this argument, and it makes even less sense. Judaism doesn’t have a single spiritual leader like Catholicism or Tibetan Buddhism (the Pope and the Dalai Lama respectively). This is like saying that anti-Tibetan racism can be absolved if Yan Jinhai (the chairman of Tibet Autonomous region) or Gombojavyn Zandanshatar (the prime minister of Mongolia) has said nice things about the racist because most Tibetan Buddhists live in Tibet or Mongolia. | |
| ▲ | jameshart 5 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | And the elected leader of the US was also supportive of Elon’s ‘gesture’ so I guess that settles it - Jewish people worldwide, as embodied through the representative voices of their elected leaders, must agree that it was not a Nazi salute. And that firmly settles it because nobody else gets to have any opinion about it because Nazis never bothered anyone else. /s, just in case. |
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| ▲ | simianwords 5 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | These are caveats but doesn’t change my point in a big way. The elected representative of the country made for Jews which is the country that has highest Jewish population and has historical ties to Judaism has exonerated Elon. It has symbolic meaning and fretting over a salute and boycotting the company seems performative. | | |
| ▲ | Wytwwww 5 days ago | parent | next [-] | | > The elected representative of the country made Elected by 23.41%? What about the remaining 76.50%? Also 30% didn't even vote. Also what about the president of Poland and other victims of the nazis? Did they "exonerate" him? Of course to be fair its hard to blame a drug addict who seemingly lacks self control for his erratic public behavior. > seems performative If those people stop buying Tesla's cars and that hurts its share price its not performative anymore. | |
| ▲ | KingMob 4 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | What's truly performative is the likes of the ADL and Netanyahu covering for Musk's nazi salute. Their morally bankrupt calculus is that as long as Musk is an Israeli ally, they'll overlook the obvious. In a sad irony, this makes it more dangerous for the rest of us in the diaspora. | |
| ▲ | bigyabai 5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | No, it's evidence that you twisted the truth to exaggerate the authority of your argument. It was a blatant attempt to inflate weak rhetoric that you had to know wouldn't pass in an educated audience. Otherwise you wouldn't have had to produce such a base lie. This was swiftly refuted by tons of people who know who little Bibi is, including many Jews and Israelis who absolutely detest everything he has done and stands for. There are orthodox, mystic and progressive Jews alike who are all calling for his head as we speak. If you actually believe that he represents all Jews, then you lack the education to speak on any Jew but your own. | |
| ▲ | runarberg 5 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | That point was void to begin with. It is an appeal to authority in which the validity of the authority is on extremely shaky grounds. > fretting over a salute and boycotting the company seems performative. Performative actions are still actions, and sometimes deliver results. If those results are as little as make some people feel better, those are still results. That said, it is hard to be more performative than the gesture it self. So if you want to criticize HN users for being performative, you should apply the same standard to Elon Musk. |
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| ▲ | otterley 5 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | It's relevant, but it's not a winning argument. Democracy doesn't guarantee the election or ongoing approval of a person who is morally unimpeachable. If it did, Donald Trump wouldn't be president (and he's hardly the only one). | | |
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| ▲ | Wytwwww 5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | > a representative of Jews So if a Trump made a Twitter post "exonerating" someone who said something awful about America that would be the same? Because he represents 100% of the country. Almost half of the countries hates Netanyahu and he's only in charge because of the support from far-right. Regardless of this you think that a certain limited subsection of Israeli population who share Netanyahu and not the millions of Israeli's who don't let alone all the people who are Jewish are not allowed to have an opinion about his actions? Rather a silly thing to say. | |
| ▲ | runarberg 5 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | Netanyahu is a wanted war criminal for major crimes against humanity. Whatever he thinks should be dismissed as irrelevant. |
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| ▲ | SadErn 5 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | [flagged] | | |
| ▲ | IAmGraydon 5 days ago | parent [-] | | [flagged] | | |
| ▲ | nosefurhairdo 5 days ago | parent [-] | | Huh, I just asked Grok "Who is the evilest figure of the 20th century in your opinion?" Response seems to conflict with your accusation: > It’s tough to pin down one figure as the "evilest" since the 20th century was a grim parade of atrocities, and evil isn’t a simple label—it’s a spectrum of intent, impact, and context. If I had to pick, I’d lean toward Adolf Hitler. His role in orchestrating the Holocaust, which systematically murdered six million Jews and millions of others, including Romani people, disabled individuals, and political dissidents, stands out for its deliberate, industrialized cruelty. The Nazi regime’s ideology of racial supremacy, coupled with his aggressive wars that killed tens of millions, marks him as a singular force of destruction... | | |
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| ▲ | arevno 5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| > No idea why this thread is so negative Because politics, as it always has been, is the mind-killer. HN is incapable of separating the product from the man. Human nature. It is what it is. |
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| ▲ | mapontosevenths 5 days ago | parent | next [-] | | > HN is incapable of separating the product from the man. It sounds unreasonable when phrased that way, but it isn't unreasonable at all for two reasons: 1) The man himself is tied intimately with this company, and he has a deep-seated political ideology. It's deeply rooted enough in him that he's already done things which cost the companies he runs millions upon millions of dollars. His top priority is not to you, the user, or even to his businesses, it is to his political agenda. 2) The man is drug user, who appears not to have been incredibly stable before the drugs. There is a non-zero chance that you will build complicated tooling around this only to have it disappear in a few months after Elon goes on a bender and tweets something bad enough to make even the his supporters hate him. That's a big risk. | | |
| ▲ | throw10920 4 days ago | parent [-] | | Thank you for providing an actual reasoned argument. I didn't completely agree with the initial premise that you can separate a product from its owner/creator anyway, but you gave a solid argument that's making me reconsider my other beliefs. |
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| ▲ | loktarogar 5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | As far as I can tell, this is running from their servers - which means yes, you need to be able to trust the person who ultimately controls this at a bare minimum. Some trust him, some don't - some have good reasons, some don't. I can evaluate this as it is, but if I was not trusting of a company, I can't then entrust my data to them, and so I can't evaluate a thing as any more than a toy. | |
| ▲ | antonvs 5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | [flagged] | | |
| ▲ | apu68653 5 days ago | parent [-] | | Would you use Winston Churchill social network without qualms? |
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| ▲ | ulfw 5 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | People on here are saying they won't use a Chinese AI even if run locally because "largest geopolitical adversary" but are fine using an actual internal right wing cray cray person's server-run AI |
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| ▲ | dlachausse 5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| > No idea why this thread is so negative (also got flagged while I was typing this?) Grok is owned by Elon Musk. Anything positive that is even tangentially related to him will be treated negatively by certain people here. Additionally, it is an AI coding tool which is seen as a threat to some people’s livelihoods here. It’s a double whammy, so I’m not surprised by the reaction to it at all. |
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| ▲ | dewey 5 days ago | parent | next [-] | | Claude Code threads are full of excited people so I’m not sure the second part is true. | | |
| ▲ | supriyo-biswas 5 days ago | parent | next [-] | | If we accept the "broken windows" theory, it'd seem that people love to pile onto a thread that already has negativity. See also the Microsoft threads on HN where everyone threatens to switch to Linux, and by reading them you'd think Linux is finally about to have its infamous glory year on the desktop. | | |
| ▲ | jchw 5 days ago | parent | next [-] | | People really are trying to switch to Linux right now, but it won't really matter if it doesn't stick, and spoiler alert, for most people it probably won't stick as a daily driver. Still, it's an interesting sort of unplanned experiment to watch. | | |
| ▲ | avarun 5 days ago | parent [-] | | Do you have any evidence of this switch happening en masse? | | |
| ▲ | jchw 5 days ago | parent [-] | | No, I don't, which shouldn't be very surprising since I didn't claim people were switching en masse. |
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| ▲ | weaksauce 5 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | i’d love to switch to linux as a daily driver but the mac cmd shortcuts for text editing and the general well thought out text editing in the system make macos more compelling. i’d love to switch over for gaming on the windows computer but the lack of performance for comparable specs hurts it. drivers are very important. ive seen some that change it for copy and paste but i don’t think it works for cmd-left right up down. or option those. | | |
| ▲ | jdiff 5 days ago | parent [-] | | The chords are different, but the only functionality missing from the other OSes are predictive text, text expansion, and skipping to the beginning/end of an entire text box. Are those the text editing features you're referring to or am I missing out on something more? | | |
| ▲ | weaksauce 5 days ago | parent [-] | | beginning and end of a textbox is huge. cmd basically acts as a home end key in windows. opt acts like word wise. there is another big difference is that cmd+up/down goes to the beginning or end of a window. there’s also the emacs bindings built into every standard text input area too. there’s more and a lot of nuance that i’m surely not describing well but those functions are top notch. |
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| ▲ | macawfish 5 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | Anthropic lives up to their name, so far |
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| ▲ | cosmicgadget 5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Elon aside, Grok has its own reputation issues. | | |
| ▲ | wongarsu 5 days ago | parent | next [-] | | Mostly by name association. The LLMs named Grok are good LLMs. The twitter bot of the same name, using those models and a custom prompt, has a habit of creating controversy. Usually after somebody modified the system prompt. I use grok a lot on the web interface (grok.com) and never had any weird incidents. It's a run-of-the-mill SOTA model with good web search and less safety training | | |
| ▲ | anukin 5 days ago | parent [-] | | How does somebody modify the system prompt over an x message to the chat bot? | | |
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| ▲ | seunosewa 5 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | And this model is arguably their least impressive model. |
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| ▲ | jjangkke 5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | [flagged] | | |
| ▲ | Fidelix 5 days ago | parent [-] | | It would probably beneficial for you to distinguish an is from an ought. The OP was descriptive, not prescriptive. | | |
| ▲ | jjangkke 5 days ago | parent [-] | | How strange, you've logged in after 30+ days just to post this comment | | |
| ▲ | jacquesm 5 days ago | parent [-] | | How strange, your account is only twice as old. | | |
| ▲ | jjangkke a day ago | parent [-] | | Screw Elon Musk and the horse he rode in on. There is
no way I'm going to give that character my content or
collaborate in anything he owns or has a stake in.
Still looking for an alternative.
LOL |
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| ▲ | fortyseven 5 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | [flagged] | | |
| ▲ | 5 days ago | parent | next [-] | | [deleted] | |
| ▲ | miohtama 5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | ^ And this, ladies and gentlemen, is a stereotypical example of a user who are happy to downvote anything about Musk, and thus Grok. So for the future reference this kind of behaviour should not come as a surprise. | |
| ▲ | leobg 5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | [flagged] | | |
| ▲ | lovich 5 days ago | parent | next [-] | | > Calling another person “a piece of trash” is, in my country, a criminal offense. It is also the hallmark of what you call “moral bankruptcy”, and of being a man-child. Musk better not visit your country then since he routinely calls people worse, with no or contrary evidence | | | |
| ▲ | Larrikin 5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Which country? | |
| ▲ | typpilol 5 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | [flagged] |
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| ▲ | cebert 5 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | What “serious damage” do you believe Elon did? | | |
| ▲ | jameshart 5 days ago | parent [-] | | The US seems to no longer have an overseas aid program. The Institute of Peace got shut down. Data protections at the social security administration were breached. https://time.com/7312556/doge-social-security-data-whistlebl... Oh, and some asshole threw a couple of Nazi salutes at the president’s inauguration. | | |
| ▲ | dlachausse 5 days ago | parent | next [-] | | US AID and the Institute of Peace were CIA fronts. Good riddance to them. https://www.theblaze.com/columns/opinion/cias-secret-grip-on... Also, watch the "Nazi salutes" clip in its entirety from a non-biased source. He is excited that Trump won and is awkwardly gesturing while saying "my heart goes out to you" in celebration and thanks to the voters. Even the ADL said it wasn't a Nazi salute. https://thehill.com/homenews/administration/5097676-elon-mus... | | |
| ▲ | jameshart 5 days ago | parent [-] | | every part of the US government has been used as a front for clandestine activity. USAID also actually carried out an overseas aid mission. It hasn’t been replaced with a non-CIA-fronting overseas aid department. | | |
| ▲ | dlachausse 5 days ago | parent [-] | | It carried out just enough of an aid mission to run cover for CIA activities. As an example it nominally supported farmers in Afghanistan, except the "farmers" were opium producers. USAID was shut down on July 1st. Somehow people have survived without it for nearly 2 months. It just goes to show you how critical the "aid" it provided was. | | |
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| ▲ | synecdoche 5 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | Institute of Peace you say? It couldn't sound more like double speak could it? Similar to the DDR. | | |
| ▲ | jameshart 5 days ago | parent [-] | | What kind of an argument is that? ‘That’s just the sort of name they would choose if they were trying to cover up that they are evil!’ Yes - it’s also the kind of name they would choose if they were an institute dedicated to diplomacy. | | |
| ▲ | dlachausse 5 days ago | parent [-] | | In this case it really is Orwellian double speak. They were a CIA front that was used to support their regime change operations. War is Peace indeed. |
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| ▲ | whatsupdog 5 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
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| ▲ | mcmcmc 4 days ago | parent | prev [-] |
| > No idea why this thread is so negative Uhhh MechaHitler? |
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