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Animats 4 days ago

It's socialism, after all, for the Government to own an interest in a company.

Covered yesterday on YC.[1]

[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44989773

boredatoms 4 days ago | parent | next [-]

We can finally get that universal healthcare then

aspenmayer 4 days ago | parent | next [-]

The healthcare industry doesn't need a bailout, though, so the US has no leverage to demand 10% of healthcare companies' stocks.

vjvjvjvjghv 4 days ago | parent | next [-]

The healthcare industry is receiving perpetual bailouts through drug import restrictions, tax deductions, subsidies and favorable legislation.

aspenmayer 4 days ago | parent [-]

> The healthcare industry is receiving perpetual bailouts through drug import restrictions, tax deductions, subsidies and favorable legislation.

The chip fab industry builds billion dollar bespoke superfund sites, and they're paid for the privilege.

https://www.jstor.org/stable/j.ctv65swcp.5 | https://doi.org/10.2307/j.ctv65swcp.5

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superfund

TehCorwiz 4 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

The healthcare industry as it is is dominated by parasitic middlemen sucking the money from both patient and provider.

kelnos 4 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> the US has no leverage to demand 10% of healthcare companies' stocks

The US government doesn't need leverage. It just needs an act of Congress. Corporations are convenient fictions that exist at the pleasure of our legal system, which can be changed.

aspenmayer 4 days ago | parent [-]

I agree that this could be done as it has happened before, but I don’t think anyone would go quietly. It’s expropriation without pay or eminent domain if it’s with pay, but I would expect a Supreme Court challenge if Congress came anywhere near this, either way.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State-owned_enterprises_of_the...

hakfoo 3 days ago | parent [-]

A nifty play would just be "the corporate veil is no longer free. Issue the state stock for a 49% stake, or your investors have unlimited liability." Then there's a theoretical "trade" but virtually nobody's going to say no.

aspenmayer 3 days ago | parent [-]

In such a scenario, the US gov is only ~2% away from a 51% attack hostile takeover against any/every public company, depending on the kind of shares.

This is not likely.

hakfoo a day ago | parent [-]

That's the goal. Right now, public companies are far too governed by people who want the business to succeed at all costs.

The state could represent interests like "keeping high-paid jobs on-shore" or "avoid legal/labour/environmental standard arbitrage" that regular investors won't vote for.

bdangubic a day ago | parent [-]

works for venezuela and all other commie countries so you know, why don’t we try to become that too :)

WillPostForFood 4 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

the US has no leverage to demand 10% of healthcare companies' stocks.

US federal government is the biggest player in healthcare, by far. 32% of all healthcare spending is Federal government dollars. They have plenty of leverage. Bad if they use it, but they have it.

$900+ billion in Medicare yearly $600+ billion in Medicaid yearly

aspenmayer 4 days ago | parent [-]

Why would the government taking a stake of the insurance companies be a benefit from the point of view of the federal government or the insurance companies?

What would the value add for either party be?

WillPostForFood 2 days ago | parent | next [-]

You said the government had no leverage, I am pointing out they have tremendous leverage. I said it would be bad to use the leverage, so I don't think there is a benefit.

aspenmayer 2 days ago | parent [-]

> You said the government had no leverage, I am pointing out they have tremendous leverage.

That’s a fair point. I agree that my phrasing glosses over a bit of nuance. The political capital needed to reform the insurance companies would be hard to wrangle for anyone else but Trump, was my point. The government in many states regulates the insurance industry as far as rate increases and so on, so I’m sure they can apply pressure in many ways. I just don’t think that the government would do so, but they could in theory. I’m not sure they would in practice, but you were right to call me out.

Hikikomori 4 days ago | parent | prev [-]

Can recoup some of the completely unnecessary money poured into insurance companies that shouldn't exist.

aspenmayer 4 days ago | parent [-]

That money almost seems like ill-gotten gains at this point. To a certain reading, it’s blood money.[0] If the insurance rates are too high, I don’t see how another cook in the kitchen is going to cook the books better, but I’m willing to believe that it could be a shakeup that might work. I just don’t have high hopes.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Famine,_Affluence,_and_Moralit...

Hikikomori 4 days ago | parent [-]

Don't worry, they're now using AI to deny claims.

bdangubic 4 days ago | parent | prev [-]

The “US” you are referring to no longer exists. It has been replaced by a combo of North Korea and Venezuela :)

cookiengineer 4 days ago | parent | prev [-]

Most people in the US seem to not realize that a social healthcare system is better for all of them due to all of them sharing the bill.

Now only companies are left to pick up the bill, because a republican administration won't ever consider doing it.

I still wonder when CEOs will realize that lack of education and lack of healthcare will eventually land at their doorsteps because they won't have immigrant workforces anymore that can compensate for it.

4 days ago | parent | next [-]
[deleted]
epolanski 4 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> Most people in the US seem to not realize that a social healthcare system is better for all of them due to all of them sharing the bill.

As a high-income earner I used to be in favor of privatizing healthcare here in Italy/Europe.

I've always seen the public healthcare system wasteful and inefficient. Our healthcare system really is in a terrible spot.

Then few years ago, a very close friend of mine, had to give birth to her child. She had chosen one of the most expensive hospitals in the region, where there would be a huge staff all for her, not that crappy public service she would get.

Then tragedy struck: in all the luxury and care she was receiving, her newborn had huge problems staying alive, and died of respiratory issues few minutes after birth.

A very preventable death the autopsy stated moreover if she was in an appropriate public hospital.

Why? Because larger public hospitals have all a newborn reanimation unit with trained staff exactly for these kind of emergencies. Private ones? They are virtually non existent, doesn't matter the country or budget, no private hospital can afford such an expensive unit that requires extremely specific training and equipment but gets to act rarely if ever. So they don't exist in those contextes.

Since then I realized how naive I was: private healthcare just cannot justify investing in a huge amount of treatments that are a financial disaster for the private clinic/hospital. They just can't.

Thus, at the end of the day, you don't really want private healthcare that has to choose what to provide on a $ basis, you just don't. You want a as comprehensive and available public service that needs the right amount of money and incentives to work properly.

I don't know how can it be achieved, but you really don't want to be that father/mother, sister, friend or patient that cannot access an important procedure because it makes no financial sense to offer it.

fransje26 4 days ago | parent | prev [-]

> I still wonder when CEOs will realize that lack of education and lack of healthcare will eventually land at their doorsteps

Have you considered that they don't care? They can make a better profit now, so why worry about what is happening 5 to 10 years down the line?

petralithic 4 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Minor state capitalism, nit socialism.

krapp 4 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Unless the workers own the means of production, it isn't socialism. The government is just another agent of capitalism here. Can we call this sparkling capitalism?

testrun 4 days ago | parent [-]

I think this war is lost. The word socialism means different things to different people. It all depends on where you stand and what you are looking at. If you are on the far right, most things the government does is socialism. If you are on the far left, everything the government does is to support capitalism. And in between the two everything goes.

johnecheck 4 days ago | parent | next [-]

I frequently say the same thing about the word Capitalism. (Communism too). They're second only to 'god' in terms of historical baggage.

If you say 'I like Capitalism', a significant minority will hear 'I love US imperialism and hate nature', despite that almost certainly not being what you meant. Similarly, if you say 'I like Communism', many hear 'I love dictators, gulags, 5 year plans and famine'.

A word of advice: if you actually want to have valuable political conversations with people, don't start by identifying yourself with ideology that's arguably responsible for various atrocities and millions of deaths.

krapp 4 days ago | parent [-]

> if you actually want to have valuable political conversations with people, don't start by identifying yourself with ideology that's arguably responsible for various atrocities and millions of deaths.

So neither capitalism nor communism? What's left, anarchism? I guess they haven't killed that many people.

kelnos 4 days ago | parent [-]

The point is to stop making economic systems a part of your identity.

Talk about policies and their effects, not about what bucket you might put them (and yourself) in.

testrun 3 days ago | parent | next [-]

The reason we use labels (bucket) is to make the conversation easier. Imagine that every time you use a word that you first have to define what it means. My point is that the word 'socialism' has now become meaningless.

johnecheck 2 days ago | parent [-]

Indeed, labels aren't useless. But when a label means one thing to one person and a totally different thing to another, it actually becomes an impediment to communication and is best avoided.

imtringued 3 days ago | parent | prev [-]

Communists are anti-reformist. They don't believe that anything short of a violent revolution will change anything.

Oh and if you like reforms, then you are anti-revolutionary, which means you are reactionary, which means you are a fascist. Yep, that's the standard communist logic.

petralithic 4 days ago | parent | prev [-]

Socialism has nothing to do with government. It's an economic system not a governmental one.

testrun 3 days ago | parent [-]

Proving my point

aspenmayer 4 days ago | parent | prev [-]

> It's socialism, after all, for the Government to own an interest in a company.

> Covered yesterday on YC.[1]

> [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44989773

The post from yesterday was news; this is commentary, as in, not a dupe.

To your point, it's arguably closer to state capitalism, which may be a distinction without a difference if you paint it with the same brush as socialism, but it's one worth mentioning.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_capitalism

The name of the (sub)site we're posting on is HN; YC is the host. :P

Animats 4 days ago | parent | next [-]

The phrase "lemon socialism" used to be applied to the UK. The Government had managed to acquire the steel industry, the railroad industry, and the auto industry - all dying industries in the UK. They became British Steel, British Rail, and British Leyland. The end result wasn't good. They turned into jobs programs.

Eventually those were privatized. Now, the railroads are being socialized again.

aspenmayer 4 days ago | parent [-]

It's a pendulum effect, with nationalization on one end, and privatization on the other. If capitalism and money itself is the best organizing principle that works around the world, it does limit the opportunities for change and growth. Socialism doesn't have a counter to the market principle, so they can only incorporate it. The US has a branding problem; freedom ain't free, but nobody even votes, so we earned what we got.

crooked-v 4 days ago | parent | prev [-]

"capitalism with American characteristics"

aspenmayer 4 days ago | parent [-]

> "capitalism with American characteristics"

China is trying to beat US at its own game. US (or at least its current political leader) is trying to beat Russia at its own game. Russia is trying to remain relevant. Russia is the muscle, China is the finance.

China needs Russia just like Google (Chrome) needs Firefox. Without Russia around, China would get all of the attention instead. Without Firefox existing, Google would have no counter to antitrust allegations in the web browser space.

Anything you can do, I can do better. I can do anything better than you.

No, not like that!

It's like that Spider-Man meme where everyone is Spider-Man pointing their fingers at each other. All the power structures are mirroring each other. It's all kayfabe, all the time. Everything is wrestling.

https://www.nytimes.com/2016/05/27/magazine/is-everything-wr... | https://archive.is/muwUp