Unless the workers own the means of production, it isn't socialism. The government is just another agent of capitalism here. Can we call this sparkling capitalism?

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testrun 4 days ago | parent [-]

I think this war is lost. The word socialism means different things to different people. It all depends on where you stand and what you are looking at. If you are on the far right, most things the government does is socialism. If you are on the far left, everything the government does is to support capitalism. And in between the two everything goes.

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johnecheck 4 days ago | parent | next [-]

I frequently say the same thing about the word Capitalism. (Communism too). They're second only to 'god' in terms of historical baggage.

If you say 'I like Capitalism', a significant minority will hear 'I love US imperialism and hate nature', despite that almost certainly not being what you meant. Similarly, if you say 'I like Communism', many hear 'I love dictators, gulags, 5 year plans and famine'.

A word of advice: if you actually want to have valuable political conversations with people, don't start by identifying yourself with ideology that's arguably responsible for various atrocities and millions of deaths.

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krapp 4 days ago | parent [-]

> if you actually want to have valuable political conversations with people, don't start by identifying yourself with ideology that's arguably responsible for various atrocities and millions of deaths.

So neither capitalism nor communism? What's left, anarchism? I guess they haven't killed that many people.

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kelnos 4 days ago | parent [-]

The point is to stop making economic systems a part of your identity.

Talk about policies and their effects, not about what bucket you might put them (and yourself) in.

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testrun 3 days ago | parent | next [-]

The reason we use labels (bucket) is to make the conversation easier. Imagine that every time you use a word that you first have to define what it means. My point is that the word 'socialism' has now become meaningless.

	▲	johnecheck 2 days ago \| parent [-]
		Indeed, labels aren't useless. But when a label means one thing to one person and a totally different thing to another, it actually becomes an impediment to communication and is best avoided.

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imtringued 3 days ago | parent | prev [-]

Communists are anti-reformist. They don't believe that anything short of a violent revolution will change anything.

Oh and if you like reforms, then you are anti-revolutionary, which means you are reactionary, which means you are a fascist. Yep, that's the standard communist logic.

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petralithic 4 days ago | parent | prev [-]

Socialism has nothing to do with government. It's an economic system not a governmental one.

	▲	testrun 3 days ago \| parent [-]
		Proving my point