Can you expand on the “immobilizer regulations”? I wasn’t aware any of this was regulated in.

> Generally, long range key fob button functions and the short range start release functions are separated, both intentionally for security reasons and due to the different problem space occupied by each.

I don’t think this is true, for instance how does the key fob trigger a start sequence for vehicles equipped with remote start? They must be connected to the same CANBUS, so the key fob can interface with the start systems. This is also how a lot of vehicles are stollen, because of abuse/misuse of CANBUS (i.e. headlights being addressable in CANBUS)

  It’s also worth noting that European makes in general tend to have much
  better cryptographic key security.

https://www.usenix.org/system/files/conference/usenixsecurit...

Sure, but in my experience, people never attribute high insurance costs to the underlying risks being high, rather they blame that on the insurance companies and then vote for people who promise to “do something about it“.

I’m sure there is brand damage from people hearing that a particular car is frequently stolen, because having your car stolen as a pain. I am skeptical the analysis reaches deeper than this first level tho.

Note those Hyundai's relied on old fashioned cut keys and not electronic transponders, and the solution was electronic transponders because the old style stuff was so trivially bypassed.

> One could also argue that criminals being able to steal parked cars is safer over all for society as they then don't feel the need to car jack you while you are actually in the vehicle.

Here in the UK vehicle theft reached an all time low in 2014. It’s doubled since then. If there was an increase in car jacking it must have been minescule by comparison. It’s not really a crime that happens here.

I had an old beater van that got stolen. It turned out that model was known to be easy to steal. I suspect most car theft is done because it’s easy and fairly low risk. Walk up to a car in the night, fiddle around for a few minutes and drive off.

I still drive a car with a key. It’s completely fine. Who actually asked for keyless entry?

Old beaters are exactly the things that get stolen. Their security can often be beaten with a butter knife or coat hanger. That's more about minimizing the losses, for which it's a useful approach. Running costs tend to be lower as there's little purchase price and no incentive to do expensive repairs instead of dumping a broken one for another running beater.

If someone wants to stole the car they will steal it.

Stealing a car is not the same as stealing a candy. In Europe all parts are marked so it takes significant effort to sell or modify such cars. It's not like people steal them and then sell it at yard sales.

As for the "beaters": shortly after Russian invasion on Ukraine plenty of cars were stolen in Poland. Not the expensive kind but usually 10-30 years old cars with big and reliable engines (V6, V8). I know 6 people that had Jeeps Grand Cherokee stolen (different generations).

My uncle wanted to renovate Isuzu Rodeo with completely rusty frame but V6 engine of a value of like 300€ and it was stolen too.

And it happened ~1 month after it started.

Where I live, the ability for the "Kia Boys" to easily steal cars, really boosts their effectiveness at robbing people at gunpoint. Sprees of 20 people being robbed by the same group. It's not poor kids who lack school transporation options, doing their best to get by.

Strong disagree. Many car thefts are by POS teenagers who do it because it's easy and they can get away with it. They then proceed to drive those cars recklessly, endangering the lives of other people, or worse, use the sense of anonymity and power provided by the stolen car to commit violent crimes.

https://www.krqe.com/news/crime/teen-given-max-sentence-afte...

> One could also argue that

One could also argue that most people didn't bother because violent crimes are much more severely punished, now that the bar is so low people steal much more. And the stats would back it up

https://images.vivintcdn.com/global/Blog%202022/01-Number-of...

Unwarranted worries. I keep the fob in my pocket all the time, the car will keep running without the fob. Also usually these systems have incar fob detection. Mine will refuse to lock if it senses the fob is inside the car.

There's a huge value feature, I can keep the "key" in my pocket or bag or whatever and I don't have to fetch it out. Plus the "key" can be a phone or other device.

Adding in a stick of metal that can be trivially bypassed does nothing to make the car more secure.

>> throw the key back into the car so I can do things

Isn't it the same for old style key, but with even more actions? Like to navigate a keyhole, turn the key...

It’s convenient. If I want to keep the AC on when I exit, I push the button for that before I get out.

It’s especially nice when the key is my phone. I never have to worry about keys. I just get in my car and drive, and when I arrive I get out. I keep a key card in my wallet as a backup in case my phone explodes.

Except those guys had it go so far that trying to insure a cheap Kia was extremely expensive, since insurers considered them a toxic asset.

I had a used VW gti (late last century) with an imobilizer. It let the engine crank but wouldn’t start. It also locked the hood from opening, leading to some panic when first getting the car and forgetting it had this feature.

It was a circular key below the steering wheel.

A physical steering wheel lock works too.

Not every problem needs a tech solution.

Immobilizers (which lock out the engine until there's been some authorization from another device, i.e. from a chip in the key) have been mandatory in cars in the UK at least (and I would presume Europe on similar time scales) for almost 30 years (from 1998). Seems they've been sold in cars for a few years longer than that (from 1992). According to: https://www.carwow.co.uk/guides/glossary/what-is-a-car-immob....

Maybe never introduced into the US market? Would find that hard to believe.

I’m pretty sure most cars in the later key era used some sort of chip verification on ignition for the key. It wasn’t just a physical thing. Given it was 15 years ago, I don’t know how cryptographic the proof was - perhaps it was just reading a number from the key. But the hyper short range nature of it made it quite secure.

I think the early 90s gm keys with the chip were just resistors in the key body. They stop reading over time but you can splice in the correct value to bypass

I've only ever personally seen failures with keyed ignitions. They are subject to physical wear. This is a problem solved by keyless ignitions which have zero physical wear parts.