Remix.run Logo
fluxkernel 4 days ago

Poorest workers are hit hardest by pretty much anything related to money.

actionfromafar 3 days ago | parent | next [-]

Including tariffs. (Blanket) tariffs are almost like a special tax on poor people.

Explanation: to a well off person, 25% higher gas or food prices is just an annoyance. Nothing in their day to day life will change because of that. To a poor person it's brutal.

Tadpole9181 3 days ago | parent | next [-]

And, importantly, tariffs are payed by the importing party. This means they affect the base price of the product and cannot be made progressive.

You could set up a deduction system... But that's retroactive (poor people still don't have that money for a whole year) and dramatically complicates their tax filing burden and financial record keeping requirements.

The rich can afford lawyers and accountants, so the IRS has been going after lower and lower income folk for their slip-ups more often. So yet more punishing the poor.

chiefalchemist 3 days ago | parent | next [-]

And, importantly, tariffs are payed by the importing party. This means they affect the base price of the product and cannot be made progressive

Yes. But that cost can be absorbed across the board. The manufacturer can lower their margins. The importer / distributor / wholesaler can do the same. The B2B / B2C seller can do the same.

It doesn’t all necessarily get directly passed to the buyer.

Another question that few are asking is: what has the off shoring of so much manufacturing cost the USA? Looking at the resident of the WH, it appears to be quite a bit.

wickedsight 3 days ago | parent | next [-]

> Another question that few are asking is: what has the off shoring of so much manufacturing cost the USA? Looking at the resident of the WH, it appears to be quite a bit.

A question that I see ignored by people who ask your question, is 'what has off-shoring brought the US?' The answer is massive economic growth and improvements in quality of live.

Off-shoring allows you to make stuff cheaper by keeping the economic circumstances of the creator worse than your own. We can get cheap stuff from China because they work many more hours than people in the west do and they live in conditions that are much worse. Because we can get cheap stuff (like pocket computers, clothing, shoes, couches, cars and more) and off-shore most of the downsides (pollution, long working hours, dangerous workplaces), we improve our quality of life significantly.

So unless you prefer working in mines or working 80 hours a week in a dirty, dangerous factory, I think you're probably better off with globalization than you would've been without.

westmeal 3 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

But why would the manufacturer or distributor lower their margins? Charity?

potato3732842 3 days ago | parent | next [-]

They wouldn't on purpose but I can tell you from experience that what happens in practice is that you don't re-quote everything or instantly change your quoted pricing based on a small fluctuations in inputs. So most companies will eat a couple percent (gross) margin here and there. So when an input cost rises margins my go to X-1, and then X-2 as it it rises more, then someone notices and changes quoted pricing to say Y+1, 2 or 3 depending on whether you're trying to get ahead of future hikes, how bad you're being squeezed, how bad you want more work, etc. But no matter what the "area under the curve" of all this change is almost always going to be negative. Sure, there's the occasional winner but in total the entire industry and economy loses.

trevi 3 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Price elasticity of demand (=sensitivity to price changes). If the seller is afraid that higher prices will significantly impact sales (people won't buy the product or buy alternatives), it might accept a lower margin in order to maintain the volume.

Also market competition can be a factor: if competitors are not raising prices (or by smaller amounts), you might lose market share.

closewith 3 days ago | parent [-]

The drop in demand for staples you're talking about is quite literally the poorest people eating less, using fewer basics, lowering their quality of life further.

somenameforme 3 days ago | parent [-]

As of 2016 (first search result) 90% of food/beverage is domestically produced = no tariffs. [1] The big goal with the tariffs, outside of gaining leverage on other countries, is to motivate domestic production and alternatives. Without tariffs it simply isn't realistically possible to compete in many industries because other countries have cheaper labor and less costly regulations.

Of course the practical problem with this playing out in increased domestic production is that it's reasonably likely that in 2028 the tariffs will get rolled back, and any company that was depending on them to survive will die. That's a large amount of uncertainty for any industry where there's a significant income investment required to get going.

[1] - https://www.ers.usda.gov/data-products/charts-of-note/chart-...

closewith 3 days ago | parent | next [-]

Domestic food supply is still subject to tariffs because many of the inputs are. Agricultural machinery, parts, chemical feedstocks.

Not to mention that tariffs on directly imported goods reduce the lowest earners' ability to pay for domestic products.

If the goal was onshoring too benefit the population, it would be coupled with a strong wealth redistribution to the least wealthy to allow them to buy domestic goods. But that's not the goal.

tart-lemonade 3 days ago | parent | prev [-]

>90% of food/beverage is domestically produced = no tariffs

That's not true, even for items which undergo relatively little processing like milk:

1. Cows need feed, and in the US this is mostly corn. This corn is mechanically harvested, shucked, and transported.

2. Cows are milked by machine.

3. This milk is then transported to a larger processing facility where it gets filtered, clarified (fat removal for 2%, skim, etc), pasteurized, homogenized (fat is evenly dispersed), and bottled in a blown plastic jug.

4. After bottling, the milk gets palletized and trucked to grocery distribution centers, which will re-palletize it for shipment to individual stores.

At every step of the way, we use machines that require frequent maintenance and whose supply chains rely extensively on imported parts. On-shoring all of this would be expensive and risky both because Trump flip-flops so often and because our next administration may just reverse the tariffs.

Joeri 3 days ago | parent | prev [-]

In the short term: fear of reprisals from Trump, as he clearly warned them not to raise prices. In the long term markets find a new equilibrium, as they always do when a new tax is imposed, and that is probably going to be a combination of lower margins, higher prices for the consumer and lower prices for foreign suppliers.

Paul_Clayton 3 days ago | parent | next [-]

"higher prices for the consumer" can include lower value at the same price. Size reduction seems a common method for certain commodities. This may result in reduced consumption (e.g., a consumer buying one package of ice cream every other week), as well as increase customer dissatisfaction when the change is noticed, and it can increase packaging cost per unit weight/volume.

Other ways of reducing value are possible such as reducing quality control effort, reducing quality of inputs, and reducing manufacturing costs in ways that are known to reduce product quality.

Pushing costs to effectively underregulated externalities can also avoid price increases.

It is also sometimes possible to increase efficiency. Even a long term commodity can have potential for efficiency improvements that were considered not worth exploring under stable pricing pressures. (I suspect value reduction is easier and much faster than efficiency improvement.)

Sadly, reducing value can have a disproportionate cost to consumers. Reducing manufacturing costs for a Watchman's boots by 20% may reduce the lifetime of such by 30% and reduce the quality of use by 50% (which may be related to Samuel Vimes' theory: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boots_theory ).

NekkoDroid 3 days ago | parent | prev [-]

> fear of reprisals from Trump

Realistically, what's he gonna do? Shut down the company, which he oh so desperatly wants in the US? Tax them more, driving their cost up more?

ModernMech 3 days ago | parent | next [-]

For starters, he could do what he did with CBS: threaten a potential merger. Or he could do what he did with Musk: threaten to revoke citizenship of the CEO or anyone on the board if they're foreign. Or do what he did with Harvard and Columbia: threaten to pull grants and revoke foreign visas of workers. Or do what he did with big law firms: threaten to pull security clearances.

Lots of options.

DrillShopper 3 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

He's already weaponized the IRS, DOJ, and FTC, so there are a lot of ways he can fuck you for not bending the knee.

actionfromafar 2 days ago | parent | prev [-]

Realistically, many companies are going to shut themselves down because their margins will be gone.

Tryk 3 days ago | parent | prev [-]

US != The World.

This analysis fails to realise that there are simply other countries with which to trade with.

Gareth321 3 days ago | parent | prev [-]

> And, importantly, tariffs are payed by the importing party. This means they affect the base price of the product and cannot be made progressive.

This is not correct. The cost of tariffs are shared by the distributor and customer. The proportion is determined by the elasticity of demand. By this I mean that for goods and services which people rely on, like gas, they will pay almost all of the cost of the tariff because they need the gas to survive. For luxury goods and services, like Louboutin shoes, most of the cost of tariffs is paid by the distributor. This is because customers are willing to substitute for other options, or simply not buy that item. They don't need it.

The downstream effects are quite complex to calculate. For this reason, neoliberals prefer to avoid any tariffs at all. For example, the U.S. is a net gas exporter, meaning that total net local consumption can be satisfied without imports. In a perfect market, there would be no change to the cost of gas. However gas is a commodity, and there is the risk that cartels abuse their market positions to exploit the fact that locals must buy gas from them if they wish to avoid the tariff. For other goods like imported food, locals can substitute. They don't have to buy imported avocados. There are plenty of other affordable and nutritious foods available locally. However, the loss of avocados is, by some metric, a loss of quality of life. This isn't generally captured in economic data. Further still, some of these additional costs are offset by the fact that local businesses become more profitable thanks to said tariffs, and this ends up in the pockets of consumers. Because so much menial labour is currently offshored, the primary benefactor of tariffs is expected to be the poor and working classes.

dasloop 3 days ago | parent | next [-]

Why the poor and working class? Increasing benefits on local products maybe will, maybe not, move to salaries. But first necessity goods are not very elastic making that products more expensive.

Gareth321 3 days ago | parent [-]

> Why the poor and working class?

Because by and large, most of the jobs offshored by the U.S. have been lower skilled. As these jobs return, it is the lower skilled workers who will primarily benefit.

I agree that there are likely examples of necessities which cannot be produced cost effectively locally which will become more expensive.

Eddy_Viscosity2 3 days ago | parent [-]

These jobs are not going to return. 'The system' is too profitable in its current form. What will happen is tariffs will cause prices to rise as companies pass on this tax to consumers (which is inflationary). In fact, they may go up more than that, same way as they did during covid. Even if say two years from now a new congress and senate remove these tariffs. The prices will not go down. Companies will not build new factories here because it is easier, after they get the new higher prices locked in, to just lobby to get the tariffs removed and then keep the difference as sweet sweet margin.

Gareth321 3 days ago | parent [-]

> These jobs are not going to return. 'The system' is too profitable in its current form.

The system is set up to ensure efficient allocation of capital. If it's more profitable for manufacturers to produce goods in-country, that is exactly what they will do. It's a bold claim that tariffs will have no impact whatsoever on investment and spending, because it's clear that they absolutely will.

mindslight 3 days ago | parent [-]

At best there are going to be a bunch of new bonded warehouses built, so that distributors don't have to front the cost (and uncertainty) of the new import taxes until they have customer cash in hand. Appropriately-implemented tariffs could have kept American industry here if implemented 2-3 decades ago. At this point it's closing the barn door after the horse left, started a new life, and watched his foals grow up and have their own families. The horse is not coming back.

Far too many people think of markets as some kind of magical supercomputational system. They're really just a heuristic that does avoid some spectacular failure modes, but easily gets stuck in local maximums. China did the work over decades to prime the pump so that industry picked up and moved, while our "leaders" facilitated the looting. One pathetic man throwing policy tantrums for spectacle isn't going to reverse these now-entrenched dynamics.

There is also the glaring issue that Chinese companies can just as easily set up factories in other countries with low US tariffs. They won't be paying import taxes on the equipment they bring there to do so (like setting up a factory in the US would require), and in fact they will probably receive favors from those countries' governments for the investment. So these ham-fisted import taxes actually encourage the expansion of Chinese influence into other countries.

notahacker 3 days ago | parent | prev [-]

> Because so much menial labour is currently offshored, the primary benefactor of tariffs is expected to be the poor and working classes.

See, I was with you until this (OK, mostly with you, luxury goods are price inelastic so the buyer definitely pays).

The primary beneficiary of a carefully designed tariff policy might be some working class people in some industries (and some wealthy owners, natch), at the expense of direct and indirect customers of those industries who may or may not be poor themselves. But an idiot imposing blanket unpredictable tariffs with promises to negotiate "great deals" that lift them in future costs far more of those manufacturing jobs than it protects, because on the one hand it creates enormous supply chain risk to US manufacturing, and on the other hand overseas companies aren't investing in building new facilities in the US because of a 40% tariff levied until the POTUS changes his mind in a few months time...

Gareth321 3 days ago | parent [-]

That's certainly a possibility, so I agree. If the uncertainty leads to significantly lower investment over a prolonged period of time, the benefits could be offset.

Luxury items are price elastic. https://www.investopedia.com/ask/answers/040715/which-factor...

notahacker 3 days ago | parent [-]

Strictly speaking luxury goods are income elastic (by definition) but can be either price elastic or inelastic at different points on the pricing curve, with profit-maximising suppliers attempting to set prices at the level where it reaches unitary elasticity. But when we're talking about designer brands (as opposed to the strict economic definition of a 'luxury good' which encompasses most of the shoe market), they typically price above that level anyway to maintain "exclusivity". Hermes made a point of publicly stating that it would pass on 100% of tariffs costs to consumers, and whilst I haven't tracked Louboutin shoe prices I doubt their customer base for shoes costing 10x their less fashionable equivalent is going to permanently refuse to pay a 15% price increase. Particularly not when it also applies to the brand's closest competitor in the form of other trendy European designer shoe brands. I suspect the tariff-eating that occurs in the US fashion market will tend to be US-based retailers cutting their margins rather than the foreign brand cutting its wholesale prices too...

see also: https://www.investopedia.com/ask/answers/012915/what-effect-...

Gareth321 3 days ago | parent [-]

I don't think I agree. Luxury goods are typically defined as both income and price elastic in economics textbooks. I agree that brands can and do employ various marketing strategies like exclusivity, as you describe. This is also true of low elasticity goods like Liquid Death selling expensive water. Still, in a competitive market where the wealthy can choose other designer brands with similar class projection and quality, theory tells us that customers can and do switch, and the market finds a price equilibrium close to the pre-tariff price.

ac29 3 days ago | parent | prev [-]

> 25% higher gas or food prices [due to tariffs]

Not a great example since energy and food are overwhelming domestically produced in the US. That doesnt mean there is no effect of tariffs in those categories, but it is much more muted than the headline numbers might suggest.

actionfromafar 2 days ago | parent [-]

Do you assume future Iran- and Russia style price controls on gas for the domestic market?

You also have little nuggets like https://www.npr.org/2025/08/04/nx-s1-5453731/nasa-carbon-dio...

The Cultural Revolution marches on. Carbon Dioxide is woke.

jordanb 3 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

In the middle of last century you saw the opposite where the lower you went on the income distribution the faster your income was increasing, relativy speaking.

snapplebobapple 3 days ago | parent | next [-]

The middle of last century saw a labour shortage and much weaker monopsony labor makret ibfluence so that makes sense. The title of this article should be "in a surprise to noone, jobs that can be done by the widest percentage of the population are highly competitive and least responsive to wage pressure"

slater 3 days ago | parent | prev [-]

Yup. And then:

https://wtfhappenedin1971.com/

cowcity 4 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Or related to capital, politics, etc.

thenthenthen 3 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

And climate change…

_rm 3 days ago | parent | next [-]

True, since they own all the beachfront property

throw0101d 3 days ago | parent [-]

> True, since they own all the beachfront property

Climate change does not mean just rising sea levels, but more extreme weather as well, which can include more flooding: warmer air holds more moisture, so when it eventually gets released it can be in downpours. See recent flooding in Texas.

Poor people tend to live in the highest risk areas because the safer areas are desired most and so the people with money bid up prices there.

When you hear headlines like "Trailer Park Destroyed by Tornado", and people ask "Who would live in 'Tornado Alley'?", the answer is "Poor people.".

bko 3 days ago | parent [-]

Regarding people living in Tornado Alley because they can't afford to live anywhere else, insurance costs are much higher there, so not exactly a bargain. And plenty of wealthy people love high risk areas. Pretty much anything by a sea is high risk. And again, they pay for it with higher insurance rates.

It's hard to get a good measure of damage caused by climate change. There are much touted statistics that say billion dollar weather events are more common than ever, but that's mainly due to things being more expensive and increased development (i.e. beach front properties)

A more objective measure, although no perfect, is deaths caused by climate events. If climate events were more catastrophic over time, you would expect deaths to go up somewhat proportionally. To my knowledge, there haven't been major advances in rescue technology in the last 50 years or so.

But we see this number has come down pretty drastically over the last 150 years. In the US it has also come down or stayed about the same

https://www.statista.com/statistics/1269715/global-reported-...

https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/fatality-rates-in-the-us-...

throw0101d 3 days ago | parent | next [-]

> It's hard to get a good measure of damage caused by climate change.

The Insurance Bureau of Canada (IBC), for one, may disagree:

* https://thepointer.com/article/2025-08-02/ontarians-are-payi...

* https://www.insurancebusinessmag.com/ca/news/catastrophe/can...

* https://www.lexpert.ca/news/finance-law/insurance-bureau-of-...

* https://www.ibc.ca/news-insights/in-focus/canadian-governmen...

n4r9 3 days ago | parent | prev [-]

Is insurance a legal requirement for a trailer in Tornado Alley?

bko 3 days ago | parent [-]

Not if you own your trailer without a mortgage. If you have a mortgage you're pretty much required to have insurance. Not getting insurance doesn't make this cheaper really as you'll just lose your property completely every few years. Besides insurance rates are often highly subsidized by federal government and actually a really good bargain

n4r9 3 days ago | parent [-]

> Not getting insurance doesn't make this cheaper really as you'll just lose your property completely every few years

It sounds a bit like the "Boots theory" of Discworld [0].

> insurance rates are often highly subsidized by federal government and actually a really good bargain

This feels a bit inconsistent with your previous comment about living in Tornado Alley being "not exactly a bargain".

What do you think about studies like this [1] which find a correlation between economic disparity and tornado risk?

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boots_theory

[1] https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S01660...

SauciestGNU 3 days ago | parent [-]

I've also heard anecdotes of people draining all their savings/retirement accounts to buy property in uninsurable areas of Florida because they can't get a mortgage. I don't see that working out well long term.

fuckyah 3 days ago | parent | prev [-]

[dead]

monero-xmr 3 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

[flagged]

kyralis 3 days ago | parent | next [-]

Even in the most facile analysis: Reduced labor availability either (a) decreases supply due to failure to harvest or (b) increases prices due to increased labor costs and therefore drives inflation higher faster than bottom-tier wages can accommodate.

monero-xmr 3 days ago | parent [-]

It increases automation and therefore productivity. It increases the demand for legal unskilled labor. Money earned is spent in America rather than sent to foreign countries as remittances

hvb2 3 days ago | parent | next [-]

Not every job can be automated. Picking crops for example or cleaning hotel rooms.

The US will find out the hard way how much of their undesirable work is done by people that "steal their jobs". Jobs that no American wants to do.

The UK already has seen this with Brexit https://www.bbc.com/news/business-44230865

nine_zeros 3 days ago | parent | next [-]

Brexit is so funny because it is literally a real world example of how isolation reduces economic growth and causes poverty - and yet, America goes ahead with similar isolation.

Den_VR 3 days ago | parent | prev [-]

Picking crops or cleaning hotels rooms cannot be automated… for less than it costs to hire seasonal/migrant workers, today.

Both farms and hotels have an increasing number of jobs being automated where it makes economic sense, or for pure novelty’s sake.

https://www.farmprogress.com/technology/tethered-drones-can-...

ben_w 3 days ago | parent [-]

Right now, cleaning rooms cannot be fully automated at any price. The AI to control the robots just isn't good enough for how broad a term "unclean" can be.

I don't want to comment about picking crops, that's rapidly changing and I don't expect to be up-to-date with this. I've seen people being confidently wrong about "cows won't milk themselves" decades after there were machines cows could operate by themselves to get milked.

Den_VR 3 days ago | parent [-]

When you get into the “ at any price ” range, then you should be up for engineering the room to support fully automated cleaning, and so I’d contend this is possible today. For certain situations. For example, automatic cleaning of a capsule hotel. I’ve just checked into one myself, nearly everything is self-service with an rfid band for access. How about automatic cleaning of a clean room?

ben_w 3 days ago | parent [-]

Sure, but "For certain situations" is a strong barrier here.

So, the example with most saliency for me (which may not be the hardest to deal with) is:

Imagine a hotel that is hosting a convention, and is fully occupied for five days. On day one, a norovirus infection event gets everyone, on day four everyone's digestive tracts are voided from both ends with about 40 seconds' warning. How well do the automation systems cope?

This example is probably quite close to the top of the list of things I expect cleaning staff to be hoping someone can automate/has already automated, because noro is hella infectious like that and who on earth would actually want to be the one who has to clean up after such incidents, but has this kind of cleanup actually been fully automated yet?

I had to clean up after a relative (which is why it's salient for me), and I think I caught it from them because I'd missed the inside of a cupboard door handle before removing my gloves.

> How about automatic cleaning of a clean room?

Positive air pressure, air filters, and requiring occupants to wear stuff like this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cleanroom#/media/File:Cleanroo...

Would be one of the easier cases, given they are work environments and by extension there's an expectation of reduced scope of things for the automation to be doing, though even then I'd expect some unplanned incidents require human intervention.

ZYbCRq22HbJ2y7 3 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Reduced labor by executive power doesn't increase automation, it introduces a labor shortage.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shortage

Increased capacity utilizing automation would introduce automation

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Productive_capacity

Increasing demand doesn't magically necessitate that technological resources sprout from nothing to replace human resources.

An introductory macroeconomics source instructs one on this

https://www.khanacademy.org/economics-finance-domain/core-fi...

margalabargala 3 days ago | parent | prev [-]

Still, none of that outweighs the inflationary pressure.

Increasing automation and therefore productivity means an increase in profits to the owners, not a drop in prices, except in the most competitive industries.

Unemployment is already extremely low. There aren't tons of Americans waiting to step into these jobs. If unemployment were 10% that would be a different story, but we're close to full employment. So instead of the jobs going to Americans, the produce rots in the fields, and prices go up.

bluefirebrand 3 days ago | parent [-]

High unemployment would mean companies would have to offer more money to attract people

They want unemployment to be low so they can keep wages and salaries suppressed

kergonath 3 days ago | parent | next [-]

Except, of course, that this is completely backwards. Low unemployment shifts the balance of negociating power towards workers as companies have to compete to get them. See the massive growth in AI engineers’ wages for a nice illustration of this.

High unemployment helps employers because they can put pressure on the workers, who are less likely to find a job with better conditions or at all.

The fact that low unemployment is associated with stagnating wages these days is a massive failure of the capitalist system. It means that the situation is deteriorating and some of the levers cannot be used. There is no way out without pain.

bluefirebrand 3 days ago | parent [-]

This is my bad. For some reason I got "unemployment rate" twisted in my head and thought it was related to the number of unfilled jobs

So my reasoning was "if there are not many unfilled jobs, it makes it tougher for people to find work, meaning the unemployment rate is low" which of course does not logically follow

My mistake

kergonath 3 days ago | parent [-]

Then we agree :)

There are signs of upwards wage pressure in the last couple of years, we’ll see how sustainable that is.

margalabargala 3 days ago | parent | prev [-]

What? That makes no sense, did you mix up your high/low words? Or could you elaborate on your opinion that is perfectly opposite all accepted economic understanding?

reliabilityguy 3 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Wouldn’t the deportations increase the demand for low-paying jobs resulting in increasing salaries?

fzeroracer 3 days ago | parent | next [-]

No, for two reasons. The first is that Americans often refuse to work those jobs (and for good reason, they pay incredibly poorly, have no benefits etc. It is generally a financial loss to do said jobs). We've tried multiple times to try and get Americans to work in the fields: it never works [1]. The second is that a large amount of our economy is heavily subsidized by said cheap immigrant labor and if you just straight up remove that labor, then the costs of everything goes up as many farms go out of business and die. That's just assuming that you somehow got Americans to go out and replace said jobs; suddenly removing 1+ million people from any labor pool would have drastic effects on the rest of the economy.

[1] https://www.npr.org/sections/thesalt/2018/07/31/634442195/wh...

reliabilityguy 3 days ago | parent [-]

> The first is that Americans often refuse to work those jobs (and for good reason, they pay incredibly poorly, have no benefits etc. It is generally a financial loss to do said jobs).

Would Americans work those jobs if those jobs paid well?

fzeroracer 3 days ago | parent | next [-]

You should define what 'paid well' means if you're going to ask that question, and then compare it to the current cost of labor.

PicassoCTs 3 days ago | parent | prev [-]

Those jobs can not pay well, because the basic living goods have to be artificially price dumped to remain affordable for the working poor. Otherwise all prices would have to be raised to include this, which will never happen.

AnthonyMouse 3 days ago | parent [-]

That seems to be inconsistent with the continued negligence with respect to housing prices. Maybe it would be fine if food cost more because agricultural workers got paid better but housing cost less because we stopped artificially constraining supply.

hvb2 3 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Which would mean food gets more expensive, right?

Regardless of the fact that a lot of poor people don't live in the areas where most of those jobs are but they do get their produce from there..

The top 4 counties in the US for agriculture production are all in the central valley in California.

reliabilityguy 3 days ago | parent [-]

> Which would mean food gets more expensive, right?

Which in turn will create more pressure to increase the salaries until it reaches the equilibrium that satisfies everyone.

The alternative is to use de-facto slave labor just for the sake of cheap food?

hvb2 3 days ago | parent [-]

You're missing an important piece here.

The lower your income is, the bigger the % you spend on necessities like food. So when those go up, the lower incomes are again hit the hardest as they spend a higher percentage of their total income on it. And these are necessities not nice to haves

reliabilityguy 3 days ago | parent [-]

> You're missing an important piece here.

I am not. You are confusing transient effects with the equilibrium state.

Btw, for low wage employees everything is a significant % of their wage. The only meaningful way to increase their wages is to decrease the supply of cheap labor. This is exactly what happened during Covid where no one was willing to work for $8/hr and the wages went up.

When people realize that their wage doesn’t guarantee good living they will look for a better job or demand a raise.

hvb2 3 days ago | parent [-]

Supply and demand aren't always in the same place...

If a lot of the farm workers in California are gone how does that help the people in Nevada or Michigan that are unemployed... You think they're going to fill those positions?

> When people realize that their wage doesn’t guarantee good living they will look for a better job or demand a raise

Wow... When your job requires no education or training? I guess everyone who works 2 or more jobs in the us needs to talk to you. They're all missing this obvious point.

guywithahat 3 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Yes, countries that go through population declines without new immigration have often seen strong wage growth. Famously after the Irish great famine agricultural wages rose ~30%, and lower-skill jobs saw strong wage growth

Hikikomori 3 days ago | parent [-]

Serfs got slightly more after the Brits killed most of them? Sounds great.

guywithahat 3 days ago | parent [-]

Technically most of the Irish population emigrated Ireland, and I'm not sure I'd blame the brits for a famine but ok. Really what I'm looking at is the economic effect of decreasing population when it's not replaced by immigrants

Hikikomori 3 days ago | parent [-]

Still killed a million. It is clearly the fault of Britain as Ireland produced much more food than it needed itself but peasants mostly only got to eat potatoes as most of all good food was exported because Brits owned most of the land so peasants didn't own what they produced. When they didn't have acces to potatoes anymore they had no food, and free market advocates in Britain argued that they shouldn't even try to help them.

monero-xmr 3 days ago | parent | prev [-]

Uhhh yes precisely. That helps the poor and hurts Wall Street

hvb2 3 days ago | parent [-]

I genuinely wonder what you've done over the last few years.

Rising salaries will lead to inflation. Expecting anything else is fantasy

reliabilityguy 3 days ago | parent [-]

> Rising salaries will lead to inflation. Expecting anything else is fantasy

No. Riding salaries do not lead to inflation by themselves. What leads to inflation is the increase in money circulating on the market. In other words: printing money leads to inflation.

hvb2 3 days ago | parent | next [-]

> Riding salaries do not lead to inflation by themselves. What leads to inflation is the increase in money circulating on the market

Not necessarily, if price of product A goes up and I have to buy that it means I have less money to spend on product B. Meaning demand on product B goes down so its price goes down.

If we go back to the point that we're talking about, being how it affects the lowest incomes, then you can see how an ever increasing % of their income is locked up in food/housing etc.

By your logic "What leads to inflation is the increase in money circulating on the market." Why is the rate of inflation even a value that isn't known beforehand? Surely we control our own printers, no?

JumpCrisscross 3 days ago | parent | prev [-]

> Riding salaries do not lead to inflation by themselves. What leads to inflation is the increase in money circulating on the market

This is nonsense. If an economy doubles and the money supply grows 10%, you get deflation. If the money supply is stable and half the country gets bombed, you get inflation.

Price levels are a function of both money demand and money supply. Ignoring the demand side of the equation doesn’t work.

reliabilityguy 3 days ago | parent [-]

> This is nonsense.

Nope. This is one of the reasons we had insane inflation after Covid: we printed too much.

For example, here: https://www.investopedia.com/ask/answers/042015/how-does-mon...

JumpCrisscross 3 days ago | parent [-]

Nobody said printing money can’t cause inflation. Just that it’s not the only factor at play.

You can have an economy with zero money printing that experiences inflation or deflation.

reliabilityguy 3 days ago | parent [-]

> Nobody said printing money can’t cause inflation.

You said in the comment above.

JumpCrisscross 3 days ago | parent [-]

> You said in the comment above

How do you read “price levels are a function of both money demand and money supply” and get that?

Going back to the top, you claimed “riding [sic] salaries do not lead to inflation.” That is nonsense. Even if we ignore that rising salaries cause the money supply to increase through increased velocity, wealth effect and credit creation. (This is why when the economy is strong central banks raise rates to keep price levels stable. You have to destroy money to make up for the money being created by the private sector.)

reliabilityguy 3 days ago | parent [-]

> You have to destroy money to make up for the money being created by the private sector.

In other words, to keep inflation at bay, one of the things you do, you restrict money supply.

JumpCrisscross 3 days ago | parent [-]

> to keep inflation at bay, one of the things you do, you restrict money supply

Again, nobody said money supply doesn’t affect price levels. But in this example, rising wages caused the inflationary impetus without any money printing. To correct for that, the money supply must be reduced.

If you’re piloting a plane, deflecting the control surfaces will move the plane. But so will winds. If winds buffet your plane you have to deflect control surfaces to get back to where you were. That doesn’t mean the wind doesn’t exist.

Rising salaries can cause inflation all on their own. Even in an economy with a fixed money supply. (So can printing money, but nobody was debating that.)

niels8472 3 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Tfa mentions immigrant deportation as a reason exactly zero times.

3 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]
[deleted]
JumpCrisscross 3 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> hard for me to imagine how deporting a million illegal immigrants working under the table, or stealing a social security number, would hurt the minimum wage workers

Immigration is a distraction. Trump is deporting fewer folks than Obama did [1], he’s just doing it while pumping tens of billions to his buddies via ICE contracts.

Tariffs are a regressive tax. If food and metal is more expensive, service and manufacturing workers will be pinches.

[1] https://www.cbsnews.com/news/ice-deportations-trump-six-mont...

monero-xmr 3 days ago | parent [-]

[flagged]

JumpCrisscross 3 days ago | parent [-]

> love the argument that deporting illegals is meaningless

Red herring. Nobody said this.

My point is Trump isn’t deporting that many people. His numbers are not economically meaningful compared to tariffs. To the extent there are labour pools that would benefit from deportation, they’re geographically concentrated along the border.

If Trump wanted to remove illegals from the American labour pool, he’d target employers. He can’t [1].

[1] https://www.npr.org/2025/06/16/nx-s1-5430846/farming-industr...

orionsbelt 3 days ago | parent | next [-]

The administration seems to be deliberately making the deportations as cruel and scary as possible (CECOT, Alligator Alcatraz, etc) as a means of deterring future illegal immigration and encouraging self deportation. I haven’t looked into the numbers to see how well that’s working or not, but focusing on deportations alone is missing two thirds of the picture.

I’m not sure if this is accurate, but for example: https://www.dhs.gov/news/2025/07/31/migrant-crossings-darien...

toast0 3 days ago | parent | next [-]

I expect the numbers will go the way they want. Perhaps because of the cruelty. Perhaps because tariff games make the economy uncertain.

Having a recession is a proven way to reduce illegal immigration, and we're at least starting to see recessionary signals.

Hikikomori 3 days ago | parent | prev [-]

If you come here we'll torture you, how very American.

monero-xmr 3 days ago | parent | prev [-]

It sounds like you support deporting illegals, as long as we also eliminate tariffs (?)

JumpCrisscross 3 days ago | parent [-]

> sounds like you support deporting illegals, as long as we also eliminate tariffs

I’m saying irrespective of what you and I believe, the current administration isn’t meaningfully deporting anyone.

(To the extent I have policy views on this, it’s for coherence. You can’t do disruptive deportations while ignoring criminals all while launching on again off again tariffs which preclude both long-term domestic investment and trade-barrier reductions.)

watwut 3 days ago | parent [-]

They are however meaningfully creating fear. The public cruelty and lawlessness will reduce immigration.

anigbrowl 3 days ago | parent | prev [-]

Ah yes, blame a different group of poorly-paid workers - that always works so well!

reliabilityguy 3 days ago | parent [-]

No one blames anyone. The more low skilled workers you have, the lower wage they get. the only group that benefits from illegal immigrants is the employers: they can get away with paying less. (Consumers benefit too, ofc).

kennyloginz 3 days ago | parent | prev [-]

Thank you for saying this.