| ▲ | voidhorse 2 days ago |
| Unfortunately, wage labor as our primary labor structure has a tendency to produce Severance far more frequently than it does a meaningful marriage between work and personal purpose. There are a lot of people that argue that if you were to eliminate wage labor, and distribute goods as equally as possible or at least take care of basic needs for free through universal income or some other means that people would get lazy and stop working...but it's not true. As your post illustrates, working and producing is just as essential of an aspect of human life as consuming is—people want to produce, they just want it to be meaningful! They want to work on stuff that aligns with their own interests and beliefs. Ironically the people that claim that this isn't the case are probably the few that actually would prefer to never work (they want to keep wage labor in place so that they can extract capital from laborers while they relax and "lead" instead of produce themselves). |
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| ▲ | alabastervlog 2 days ago | parent | next [-] |
| > people would get lazy and stop working...but it's not true. Confusing especially when most people do tens of hours of work outside of paying labor already. Sometimes another 40, or more. Perhaps with UBI et c. some folks would drop to merely 50-60 total hours of work, doing wage labor for only 20-30 of it. But we only call the other things work when a rich person's paying someone else to do it for them (grocery shopping, lawn care, home maintenance, child care to include things like night time care when they're young ["night nanny" is a thing], meal planning, cooking, shuttling people places in cars, navigating healthcare, elder care, repairing clothes, and so on) because if money's not changing hands it doesn't count, I guess. |
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| ▲ | narratives1 2 days ago | parent [-] | | You’re last line is correct, it certainly counts less if money isn’t changing hands. Not because money is some sacred object, but because money changes hands when you’re doing work for others. Money is just a lubricant that allows you to contribute your work to society and society to contribute to you in a generalized way rather than a village system where everyone returns the favor in kind. Imagine we’re in a village, I’m a farmer, youre a tailor. If you want to get fed, you have to either grow your own food or you have to trade clothes to me the farmer because I’m the only one who can trade food back. As soon as you’ve traded with the farmers and we’re all set on clothes, now how are you going to eat? The result is everyone has to be a self sufficient subsistence farmer and only a few non farmers can be supported. Money just abstracts that labor. It keeps the score on how much you created value for others and people pay you money that they received from the value they provided others. Work you do for money is work you did for someone else. Picking up your groceries didn’t contribute to anyone else. It’s certainly necessary, nothing morally wrong with it, but society generally should be organized to incentivize contributing to society | | |
| ▲ | alabastervlog 2 days ago | parent [-] | | A bunch of those things are work for others that's not paid. And that was far from an exhaustive list. What's confusing to me is this notion that if we ease up a little on the stick of "your life will be ruined and you may actually die", the carrot of more money will stop working because people are just that lazy. No, they're not, they do tons of work for no pay. |
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| ▲ | mistrial9 a day ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| no not so simple. Another underlying fear is that many people are predators. Universal income would enable unwanted predators. Of course, successful predators have already implemented long term income for their groups that is satisfactory to themselves and their chosen members. Many successful examples show that membership must be earned, showing some basic positives. Freeloading is also a fear, but it is related to gluttony. Successful people are also often gluttons, so that is not solved. Rivalry means "it is not enough to succeed ourselves, the opponent must lose" .. and gluttons tend to be rivalrous of other gluttons. |
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| ▲ | jajko 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| You should travel around the world (or even your own country) a bit more. There is a lot of such people in various cultures and places, but you won't see them if living in any sort of success bubble (ie SV). One of main reasons communism always failed - it never took this basic human nature into account, rather working with some idolized Star trekkish human with strong desire to work on bettering oneself and society, incorruptible, not selfish at all and so on. |
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| ▲ | voidhorse 2 days ago | parent [-] | | Sure, but you do realize the alternative is basically to impose artificial scarcity to force people to work for their survival and do jobs that they don't want. I can't see how that is at all morally superior to communism, or how it is any less of a capitulation to the worse tendencies of human nature (hoarding resources for yourself, imposing destitution upon others to get them to do what you want, believing other people are worthless and lazy and that you alone have the wherewithal to be a true hard working human and thus you deserve the extra capital you extract). All these arguments about "human nature" are bogus. Back then we were not as technologically advanced as we are today. Today we effectively have the means to ensure the goods of society are evenly distributed as a baseline and we also have the means to effect that distribution (think that's not true? Look at amazon. It is basically a privatized version of this idea). The thing holding us back today are these straw man bs arguments that point to ghouls and ghosts like "human nature" and "lazy people" that try to argue that the degradation of society is a natural consequence of equality. No. It isn't. You are witnessing the degradation of society in some countries right now and in almost every case it is because they are grossly unequal and people hoard resources for themselves. | | |
| ▲ | robertlagrant 2 days ago | parent | next [-] | | > the alternative is basically to impose artificial scarcity to force people to work No, the alternative is reality: people pay each other to do things they want done and for things they want to buy from them. There's no artificial scarcity. There's a vast amount of intricate, well-priced effort to reduce or remove scarcity. | | |
| ▲ | attila-lendvai a day ago | parent | next [-] | | this ignores that the role of some players in this current monetary game is to print new money in their basement... | | |
| ▲ | robertlagrant 19 hours ago | parent [-] | | Yes, inflation is a big problem. You want the people who get to take your money to have a well-defined role that doesn't grow over time. |
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| ▲ | freejazz a day ago | parent | prev [-] | | Yet all the money belongs to Jeff Bezos and Elon Musk... | | |
| ▲ | robertlagrant 20 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | No it doesn't. Can you say a true statement that contradicts what I said? | |
| ▲ | throw10920 14 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | They objectively do not have all the money, or even a particularly significant share of the money, so you're starting off with a falsehood. In a communist economy, Jeff Bezos and Elon Musk still exist. The difference is that instead of getting their money/power from providing value to people by selling things, they got it from political connections and corruption. They would also have a larger share of the pie, and living conditions would be significantly worse for everyone in the classes below them. This is easy to see if you have any knowledge of present and prior communist regimes. | | |
| ▲ | freejazz an hour ago | parent [-] | | I think it's rather humorous to say they don't have "even a particularly significant share of the money" about the two richest people in the world. I think you'd have a point if what they had wasn't a "particularly significant share of the money" more than others. Like... being the richest person in a subway car isn't that impressive. It's not that much more. Being the richest person at Cipriani's in midtown during lunch... now we're talking. But the two richest people in the world don't have "a particularly significant share of the money"? What planet do you live on? | | |
| ▲ | throw10920 an hour ago | parent [-] | | Elon Musk is worth 378 billion, and Jeff Bezos is worth 196 billion, for a combined 574 billion. The combined net worth of those two is less than 4% of the 16.1 trillion of combined net worth of all ~3k billionaires in the world, which is total assets, which far exceeds the actual amount of cash that they hold. Furthermore, all of the wealth of those billionaires is a fraction of the total wealth of the world. > What planet do you live on? You need to calm down and start learning to think rationally instead of believing that your emotions correspond to reality. As a reminder, you falsely claimed that Jeff and Elon had "all the money" and have been going on ignorant, emotional, and irrational rants about them. |
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| ▲ | hylaride 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | > Today we effectively have the means to ensure the goods of society are evenly distributed as a baseline and we also have the means to effect that distribution We arguably had the means even back then, but it obviously still failed and would likely fail again. Even in the west, hyper-rationalists took various forms (Keynesian economics, urban planning, etc), but it mostly ended up in failure. The main issue is that there was and is not a static distribution or demand of goods. We can't just decide to give everybody 4 apples/week, etc. Even if we could, demands will always shift in unexpected ways. New products can shift demand in ways planners can't possibly foresee. A new apple desert could come, or people could just plain get tired of apples. Right now the best and most successful mechanism we have is price signals. When it is said that communism failed because there were bad incentives, people assume that it was because there was no incentive to work hard. While this is somewhat true, the main issue was actually that planners and the whole communist economy could never rationalize supply and demand because they ignored price signals, meaning they often actually induced demands with artificially cheap prices, often resorting to rationing (either formal or de-facto in the forms of long lines). Even worse, people were rewarded for hitting planning targets, even if the results (successful or not) were often not their fault. The result was people lied, making actual planning nearly impossible. A shoe factory would get bad leather, but make the shoes anyways, even though they fell apart sooner and then (outside of the plan) induced demand for new shoes. There are even stories of cab drivers lifting their cars and running it in reverse to continue working because they otherwise hit the "max" driving they were expected to do. So "human nature" does in fact play a role, but not in the "I'm to lazy to work in communism" that most people think it is. Amazon doesn't evenly distribute anything, they have a highly sophisticated planning system that at the end of the day responds to price signals, either via bringing in more revenue or reducing costs. | | |
| ▲ | freejazz a day ago | parent [-] | | So how is the Amazon-economy a more moral choice than communism? | | |
| ▲ | hylaride a day ago | parent [-] | | This question is a false equivalency. Amazon is not an economy. Comparing the two, morally or otherwise, is a fools errand. It's like comparing the morality of a TV network versus an actor. Amazon is an organization/corporation that participates in a market economy (mostly - I won't get into a details rabbit hole over regulation, monopoly, etc) that ultimately responds to price signals in chase of a profit motive and cannot use violence to force people to live within it. Maybe Bezos would like to be able to, maybe he wouldn't, but he can't either way. You can only realistically (morally) compare it to other companies. Communism (as practised on earth so far) is a centrally planned economy backed by a coercive, centralized state that has a monopoly on violence to competitors, mostly ignores price signals, and usually uses violence against those that try to leave or access alternatives. You can only realistically compare it to other economic and/or government models. | | |
| ▲ | freejazz a day ago | parent [-] | | It's not literal and I have a hard time believing you couldn't figure that out when I used 'amazon-economy' and not just 'amazon'. No less so in the context of a thread comparing capitalism (which was represented by Amazon's existence, in the thread) and communism, which is of course, the question you didn't answer in your response to the previous poster. Frankly, explaining communism in your response is just rude, even disregarding how pointed it is. But maybe there is a trend in your responses seeing as how you refuse to actually compare the results of capitalism against the results of communism, as was asked in the post you responded to yet didn't answer the central question thereof, so I put it to you again. I guess you could not answer the question a third time, but I would not expect a response from me if you continue with this obtuse path. | | |
| ▲ | throw10920 a day ago | parent [-] | | > Frankly, explaining communism in your response is just rude Because you clearly don't understand communism and you need it explained to you. If you understood communism, then you'd never ask to "compare the results of capitalism against the results of communism", because then you'd have to admit that the death toll from communism is over 100 million and the quality of life significantly lower, while for capitalism the death tool is multiple orders of magnitude lower and the quality of life higher. | | |
| ▲ | hylaride 14 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | He's essentially asking to explain the moral difference between a rock and a book, but then got offended when I explained that even if there were moral cases for either (rocks can be used to build or thrown for violence - books can teach good things and terrible things), comparing the two is impossible. I remember once debating an environmentalist, who was insisting that capitalism was terrible for the earth and we therefor needed more socialism. I pointed out that the environments in most communist countries were absolutely terrible compared to the west, but the main difference is that "the west" had democratic movements that pushed for less pollution. Arguing the morality of environmentalism in capitalism vs communism is a complete red herring. It was the fact that enough people had control and desire over their governments to do something that made any difference. | | |
| ▲ | voidhorse 3 hours ago | parent [-] | | You make bad faith arguments. When someone wants to talk about "capitalism" v. "communism" they typically want to discuss the idea of capitalism and the idea of communism as political enterprises. When you respond to this argument with historical examples, you are being disingenuous by shifting the modality of discourse to a different logical type. The first few computers are nothing like what we have today, many airplanes, trains, and automobiles crash, no one turns around and argues that the very conception of a train is bad because of these historical instances. It is like taking a discussion about an interface design and then moving it to the level of implementation detail. It also isn't a binary distinction. When people criticize negative outcomes of capitalism it does not automatically mean they espouse "communism" (more specifically some private definition of communism you have). They may simply want to critique the problems of the current system and propose some other alternative (maybe one that's more anarchic, for example). These labels are such a curse on political-economic discourse. They have no stable, objective referents, and they do nothing but allow people to bring the conversation to an abysmally stupid place with rapidity (I include my own tendencies in this reflection). | | |
| ▲ | throw10920 an hour ago | parent [-] | | > You make bad faith arguments. When someone wants to talk about "capitalism" v. "communism" they typically want to discuss the idea of capitalism and the idea of communism as political enterprises. This is not quite accurate. Most of the advocates of communism want to contrast the historical instances of capitalism (with all of its visible faults) with the idea of communism (with all of its ideological perfection). This is exemplified in this particular thread (although present everywhere) by freejazz's statement "So how is the Amazon-economy a more moral choice than communism?" "Amazon-economy" is capitalism as a real system/historical instances. "Communism" is the idea of communism. So, the claim that people usually want to discuss the idea of capitalism is false, because they almost invariably argue based off of real-world drawbacks of capitalism. It's not bad faith to then compare those to real-world drawbacks of historical+contemporary instances of communism. If someone really wants to discuss the idea of communism, they have to elide any mention of specific instances of capitalism (while still taking human factors into account for all theories proposed). |
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| ▲ | freejazz 13 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | >Because you clearly don't understand communism and you need it explained to you. I literally never said a single thing about communism. I'm not sure if you have me mixed up with another poster or what but this is just even more rude. |
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| ▲ | southernplaces7 a day ago | parent | prev [-] | | >how it is any less of a capitulation to the worse tendencies of human nature (hoarding resources for yourself, imposing destitution upon others to get them to do what you want, believing other people are worthless and lazy and that you alone have the wherewithal to be a true hard working human and thus you deserve the extra capital you extract). These are almost perfect summaries of how communism was indeed applied by the powerful oligarchy of bureaucrats who ran it with an authoritarian, sometimes even totalitarian fist in the countries where it was the applied form of government. As a summary of market economics, your breakdown is a grossly misguided caricature on the other hand. While there are exceptions and inefficiencies, most wealth in the market economies isn't created by hoarding anything after having taken it from others, it's instead created by cleverly using limited resources to deliver something to others who want to hand over their money inn exchange for the alternative value you provide, and also finding more capital-efficient ways of doing more of the same on a greater scale. A market economy doesn't impose destitution on others or force them to do what it wants. The opposite is true, through price mechanisms and mutually advantageous trade, it reduce scarcity while slowly improving options. It has its many flaws, but far fewer of them than the extremely crude and often brutal parodies of the same that were the case under the communist systems (which essentially replicated markets for their subjects, but under a form of central planning that was terribly inefficient and truly subject to the legal whims of a small coterie of oligarchic leaders) You draw an almost Leninesquely crude image of how markets work despite all their complexity in which you yourself are a participant and a beneficiary. | | |
| ▲ | voidhorse 3 hours ago | parent [-] | | > As a summary of market economics, your breakdown is a grossly misguided caricature on the other hand. While there are exceptions and inefficiencies, most wealth in the market economies isn't created by hoarding anything after having taken it from others, it's instead created by cleverly using limited resources to deliver something to others who want to hand over their money inn exchange for the alternative value you provide, and also finding more capital-efficient ways of doing more of the same on a greater scale. This seems like a nice empty abstraction to wield to shield yourself from serious and sober moral analysis. Every man owes society a debt through his training, education, knowledge, the public services he enjoys, and the good will of others. Yet, in spite of this, under capitalism many men feel justified to take more from others—on what grounds? In many cases, they also feel justified in outright extorting others, or socializing costs. Yet I'm sure you view all manner of these practices as "cleverly using limited resources"—I can't wait to use that as my excuse when I dump factory waste into the local reservoir. |
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| ▲ | crabbone 2 days ago | parent | prev [-] |
| There are, without a doubt, a lot of jobs nobody wants to work. Not sure anyone wants to clean restrooms in fast food establishments, for example. So, if we allow people to choose their jobs and don't have any mechanism that weeds out people who aren't good at what they chose to do, no incentive to work jobs nobody wants to do... we'll probably starve before the we die of lack of sanitation. Communism had this core ethical belief that everyone should contribute as according to their ability and should be served according to their needs. I'm not sure if Marx believed this to be possible in the physical universe, or was it something that we should approach as much as possible given the constraints of the physical universe. But, countries pursuing communism so far all ran into the problem with lack of motivation, corruption and the need to build a police state in an attempt to counter the two. So... maybe basic income isn't such a bad idea in the world where ambition can be more rewarding, but I still don't know who's going to work "bad" jobs if the alternative is to live off the basic income. |
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| ▲ | voidhorse 2 days ago | parent [-] | | Technology is the answer. Automate as many of the "bad" jobs as possible and for those we can't, find some additional incentive structure to reward those who do them. I'm not calling for complete elimination of incentive structures, but I do think we can work off an equitable baseline today. Keep incentives around as a bonus —everyone has their basic material needs accounted for, you want to live a little better than your neighbor? Work this job that we cannot fully automate yet and that is unpleasant. If all the arguments from human nature and about behavioral tendencies that people use against "communism" are valid, this sort of approach will work and should offset any concerns people have about "who will do the dead end jobs if we don't effectively force people to do them to survive?" (by the way, I hope it's not lost on anyone how perverse that is—the argument for capital is effectively the argument that the only way to have humans do dirty work is to impose scarcity and artificially withhold their means of subsistence to force them to do so) Our technological capabilities vastly outpace those of even just a few decades ago. Communism did not fail because of "human nature" or some other nonsense boogeyman people want to set up as a straw man, it failed for the simpler reason that we did not have sufficient mastery of material or recourse to automations. Today, that is no longer the case and what is actually holding us back are faulty arguments based on the existence of ghosts like "invisible hands" or "universal human nature". | | |
| ▲ | 2 days ago | parent | next [-] | | [deleted] | |
| ▲ | crabbone 2 days ago | parent | prev [-] | | I was born and lived in USSR for quite a while... life wasn't pleasant there, and technology was not the culprit really. They ran out of carrots a very long time ago, and were left with just the stick to try and enforce the ethics advocated by the communist program. There was a joke that I didn't quite understand at the time: --What are the benefits of group sex?
--You may slack off.
The idea was to say that in order to optimize almost every aspect of industry, everything was centralized, gigantic... which also created a situation where most people could only see a very tiny fraction of what they were working on. Virtually nobody knew what their individual effort contributed to the whole. And in this situation, say, you come to the factory and during your shift you cut a thousand of bolts... or ten thousands... or just ten. The system is too big to adequately respond to your individual input. You just don't know whether your extra bolts were smelted again to make more nuts, or whether some other department in your factory was sitting on their hands waiting for more bolts to come.People who enjoyed their work usually worked outside, or even against the establishment because the system couldn't provide them with adequate reward, not even in a form of recognition. |
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