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| ▲ | robertlagrant 2 days ago | parent | next [-] | | > the alternative is basically to impose artificial scarcity to force people to work No, the alternative is reality: people pay each other to do things they want done and for things they want to buy from them. There's no artificial scarcity. There's a vast amount of intricate, well-priced effort to reduce or remove scarcity. | | |
| ▲ | attila-lendvai a day ago | parent | next [-] | | this ignores that the role of some players in this current monetary game is to print new money in their basement... | | |
| ▲ | robertlagrant 20 hours ago | parent [-] | | Yes, inflation is a big problem. You want the people who get to take your money to have a well-defined role that doesn't grow over time. |
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| ▲ | freejazz a day ago | parent | prev [-] | | Yet all the money belongs to Jeff Bezos and Elon Musk... | | |
| ▲ | robertlagrant 20 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | No it doesn't. Can you say a true statement that contradicts what I said? | |
| ▲ | throw10920 14 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | They objectively do not have all the money, or even a particularly significant share of the money, so you're starting off with a falsehood. In a communist economy, Jeff Bezos and Elon Musk still exist. The difference is that instead of getting their money/power from providing value to people by selling things, they got it from political connections and corruption. They would also have a larger share of the pie, and living conditions would be significantly worse for everyone in the classes below them. This is easy to see if you have any knowledge of present and prior communist regimes. | | |
| ▲ | freejazz an hour ago | parent [-] | | I think it's rather humorous to say they don't have "even a particularly significant share of the money" about the two richest people in the world. I think you'd have a point if what they had wasn't a "particularly significant share of the money" more than others. Like... being the richest person in a subway car isn't that impressive. It's not that much more. Being the richest person at Cipriani's in midtown during lunch... now we're talking. But the two richest people in the world don't have "a particularly significant share of the money"? What planet do you live on? | | |
| ▲ | throw10920 an hour ago | parent [-] | | Elon Musk is worth 378 billion, and Jeff Bezos is worth 196 billion, for a combined 574 billion. The combined net worth of those two is less than 4% of the 16.1 trillion of combined net worth of all ~3k billionaires in the world, which is total assets, which far exceeds the actual amount of cash that they hold. Furthermore, all of the wealth of those billionaires is a fraction of the total wealth of the world. > What planet do you live on? You need to calm down and start learning to think rationally instead of believing that your emotions correspond to reality. As a reminder, you falsely claimed that Jeff and Elon had "all the money" and have been going on ignorant, emotional, and irrational rants about them. |
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| ▲ | hylaride 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | > Today we effectively have the means to ensure the goods of society are evenly distributed as a baseline and we also have the means to effect that distribution We arguably had the means even back then, but it obviously still failed and would likely fail again. Even in the west, hyper-rationalists took various forms (Keynesian economics, urban planning, etc), but it mostly ended up in failure. The main issue is that there was and is not a static distribution or demand of goods. We can't just decide to give everybody 4 apples/week, etc. Even if we could, demands will always shift in unexpected ways. New products can shift demand in ways planners can't possibly foresee. A new apple desert could come, or people could just plain get tired of apples. Right now the best and most successful mechanism we have is price signals. When it is said that communism failed because there were bad incentives, people assume that it was because there was no incentive to work hard. While this is somewhat true, the main issue was actually that planners and the whole communist economy could never rationalize supply and demand because they ignored price signals, meaning they often actually induced demands with artificially cheap prices, often resorting to rationing (either formal or de-facto in the forms of long lines). Even worse, people were rewarded for hitting planning targets, even if the results (successful or not) were often not their fault. The result was people lied, making actual planning nearly impossible. A shoe factory would get bad leather, but make the shoes anyways, even though they fell apart sooner and then (outside of the plan) induced demand for new shoes. There are even stories of cab drivers lifting their cars and running it in reverse to continue working because they otherwise hit the "max" driving they were expected to do. So "human nature" does in fact play a role, but not in the "I'm to lazy to work in communism" that most people think it is. Amazon doesn't evenly distribute anything, they have a highly sophisticated planning system that at the end of the day responds to price signals, either via bringing in more revenue or reducing costs. | | |
| ▲ | freejazz a day ago | parent [-] | | So how is the Amazon-economy a more moral choice than communism? | | |
| ▲ | hylaride a day ago | parent [-] | | This question is a false equivalency. Amazon is not an economy. Comparing the two, morally or otherwise, is a fools errand. It's like comparing the morality of a TV network versus an actor. Amazon is an organization/corporation that participates in a market economy (mostly - I won't get into a details rabbit hole over regulation, monopoly, etc) that ultimately responds to price signals in chase of a profit motive and cannot use violence to force people to live within it. Maybe Bezos would like to be able to, maybe he wouldn't, but he can't either way. You can only realistically (morally) compare it to other companies. Communism (as practised on earth so far) is a centrally planned economy backed by a coercive, centralized state that has a monopoly on violence to competitors, mostly ignores price signals, and usually uses violence against those that try to leave or access alternatives. You can only realistically compare it to other economic and/or government models. | | |
| ▲ | freejazz a day ago | parent [-] | | It's not literal and I have a hard time believing you couldn't figure that out when I used 'amazon-economy' and not just 'amazon'. No less so in the context of a thread comparing capitalism (which was represented by Amazon's existence, in the thread) and communism, which is of course, the question you didn't answer in your response to the previous poster. Frankly, explaining communism in your response is just rude, even disregarding how pointed it is. But maybe there is a trend in your responses seeing as how you refuse to actually compare the results of capitalism against the results of communism, as was asked in the post you responded to yet didn't answer the central question thereof, so I put it to you again. I guess you could not answer the question a third time, but I would not expect a response from me if you continue with this obtuse path. | | |
| ▲ | throw10920 a day ago | parent [-] | | > Frankly, explaining communism in your response is just rude Because you clearly don't understand communism and you need it explained to you. If you understood communism, then you'd never ask to "compare the results of capitalism against the results of communism", because then you'd have to admit that the death toll from communism is over 100 million and the quality of life significantly lower, while for capitalism the death tool is multiple orders of magnitude lower and the quality of life higher. | | |
| ▲ | hylaride 14 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | He's essentially asking to explain the moral difference between a rock and a book, but then got offended when I explained that even if there were moral cases for either (rocks can be used to build or thrown for violence - books can teach good things and terrible things), comparing the two is impossible. I remember once debating an environmentalist, who was insisting that capitalism was terrible for the earth and we therefor needed more socialism. I pointed out that the environments in most communist countries were absolutely terrible compared to the west, but the main difference is that "the west" had democratic movements that pushed for less pollution. Arguing the morality of environmentalism in capitalism vs communism is a complete red herring. It was the fact that enough people had control and desire over their governments to do something that made any difference. | | |
| ▲ | voidhorse 3 hours ago | parent [-] | | You make bad faith arguments. When someone wants to talk about "capitalism" v. "communism" they typically want to discuss the idea of capitalism and the idea of communism as political enterprises. When you respond to this argument with historical examples, you are being disingenuous by shifting the modality of discourse to a different logical type. The first few computers are nothing like what we have today, many airplanes, trains, and automobiles crash, no one turns around and argues that the very conception of a train is bad because of these historical instances. It is like taking a discussion about an interface design and then moving it to the level of implementation detail. It also isn't a binary distinction. When people criticize negative outcomes of capitalism it does not automatically mean they espouse "communism" (more specifically some private definition of communism you have). They may simply want to critique the problems of the current system and propose some other alternative (maybe one that's more anarchic, for example). These labels are such a curse on political-economic discourse. They have no stable, objective referents, and they do nothing but allow people to bring the conversation to an abysmally stupid place with rapidity (I include my own tendencies in this reflection). | | |
| ▲ | throw10920 an hour ago | parent [-] | | > You make bad faith arguments. When someone wants to talk about "capitalism" v. "communism" they typically want to discuss the idea of capitalism and the idea of communism as political enterprises. This is not quite accurate. Most of the advocates of communism want to contrast the historical instances of capitalism (with all of its visible faults) with the idea of communism (with all of its ideological perfection). This is exemplified in this particular thread (although present everywhere) by freejazz's statement "So how is the Amazon-economy a more moral choice than communism?" "Amazon-economy" is capitalism as a real system/historical instances. "Communism" is the idea of communism. So, the claim that people usually want to discuss the idea of capitalism is false, because they almost invariably argue based off of real-world drawbacks of capitalism. It's not bad faith to then compare those to real-world drawbacks of historical+contemporary instances of communism. If someone really wants to discuss the idea of communism, they have to elide any mention of specific instances of capitalism (while still taking human factors into account for all theories proposed). |
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| ▲ | freejazz 13 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | >Because you clearly don't understand communism and you need it explained to you. I literally never said a single thing about communism. I'm not sure if you have me mixed up with another poster or what but this is just even more rude. |
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| ▲ | southernplaces7 a day ago | parent | prev [-] | | >how it is any less of a capitulation to the worse tendencies of human nature (hoarding resources for yourself, imposing destitution upon others to get them to do what you want, believing other people are worthless and lazy and that you alone have the wherewithal to be a true hard working human and thus you deserve the extra capital you extract). These are almost perfect summaries of how communism was indeed applied by the powerful oligarchy of bureaucrats who ran it with an authoritarian, sometimes even totalitarian fist in the countries where it was the applied form of government. As a summary of market economics, your breakdown is a grossly misguided caricature on the other hand. While there are exceptions and inefficiencies, most wealth in the market economies isn't created by hoarding anything after having taken it from others, it's instead created by cleverly using limited resources to deliver something to others who want to hand over their money inn exchange for the alternative value you provide, and also finding more capital-efficient ways of doing more of the same on a greater scale. A market economy doesn't impose destitution on others or force them to do what it wants. The opposite is true, through price mechanisms and mutually advantageous trade, it reduce scarcity while slowly improving options. It has its many flaws, but far fewer of them than the extremely crude and often brutal parodies of the same that were the case under the communist systems (which essentially replicated markets for their subjects, but under a form of central planning that was terribly inefficient and truly subject to the legal whims of a small coterie of oligarchic leaders) You draw an almost Leninesquely crude image of how markets work despite all their complexity in which you yourself are a participant and a beneficiary. | | |
| ▲ | voidhorse 3 hours ago | parent [-] | | > As a summary of market economics, your breakdown is a grossly misguided caricature on the other hand. While there are exceptions and inefficiencies, most wealth in the market economies isn't created by hoarding anything after having taken it from others, it's instead created by cleverly using limited resources to deliver something to others who want to hand over their money inn exchange for the alternative value you provide, and also finding more capital-efficient ways of doing more of the same on a greater scale. This seems like a nice empty abstraction to wield to shield yourself from serious and sober moral analysis. Every man owes society a debt through his training, education, knowledge, the public services he enjoys, and the good will of others. Yet, in spite of this, under capitalism many men feel justified to take more from others—on what grounds? In many cases, they also feel justified in outright extorting others, or socializing costs. Yet I'm sure you view all manner of these practices as "cleverly using limited resources"—I can't wait to use that as my excuse when I dump factory waste into the local reservoir. |
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