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aabhay 2 days ago

“Hundreds of artists provide unpaid labor through bug testing, feedback and experimental work for the program for a $150B valued company”

This is a hilarious basis for protest

esperent a day ago | parent | next [-]

A huge company is using unpaid artist's labour to create tools that will reduce the potential for these and all future artists to get any paid work at all in the future.

It seems like signing up as the volunteer with the goal of derailing the company as much as possible is a highly valid form of ptotest.

eek04_ a day ago | parent | next [-]

> A huge company is using unpaid artist's labour to create tools that will reduce the potential for these and all future artists to get any paid work at all in the future.

"Will" is a strong claim. If the Jevons Paradox (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jevons_paradox) applies in this case - and it may well do so - the new technology will lower costs, and the increased productivity will increase demand. If so, it will require artists to work in a different way but they'll earn more.

The Baumol Effect (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baumol_effect) may also lead to increased wages.

kranke155 a day ago | parent | next [-]

No that won’t happen. Audiovisual entertainment is already beyond capacity. We make more stuff than people have the time to consume it.

The idea that this will raise wages is hilarious. I don’t see how that would be possible.

starfezzy a day ago | parent | next [-]

Tbh a lot of art people want money for is garbage, and most money goes to a few corporations anyways.

It would be nice to see that system rearranged. Even if there’s more art, money could instead fund artistic ventures people actually want rather than keeping powerful entities afloat/entrenched.

Maybe the number of major corporations decreases (towards a permanent handful) as the number of paid artists increases (towards basically everyone who could desire payment for art that’s actually in demand).

kranke155 a day ago | parent [-]

A system being rearranged is tempting, and yes, a very likely outcome. Hollywood depends on its advantage in production values, which is quickly being eroded by AI.

However, if recent history is a guide, we won't see an increase in the number of paid artists, I'd say looking at the music industry, what we saw was the increase in the number of artists in general, but success seems to me as fickle as ever. Now, apparently, thanks to Ticketmaster monopoly, even live tours barely make any money and musicians are turning to Onlyfans (not porn, just direct support) to make money.

So here's the state of the music industry (partially due to unchallenged monopolies):

You, for the most part, don't make money making music and distributing it online

You don't make money from a live tour either.

Amazing outcome for an industry where the cost of production and distribution has collapsed. No one makes money except for the monopolies in streaming (Spotify) and ticketing (Ticketmaster).

Without monopoly protections, that's what you get. Thankfully, there's a bit more competition in the audiovisual realm with Youtube and multiple streamers. Still, I don't know what to think about what might happen.

Most artists / people in audiovisual production will likely make less money. Some will likely make a lot of money. My (kind of unfounded atm) assumption is that AI will just increase the differences in Paretto distribution of income, making the top 20% very rich and the bottom 80% very poor. Before genAI, you had a very large and vibrant VFX industry, with relatively well paid workers, which is likely to be cut down by huge numbers (it's already been cut by around 50%).

dsign a day ago | parent | prev [-]

> Audiovisual entertainment is already beyond capacity. We make more stuff than people have the time to consume it.

No we don't. I rarely find anything that I like in Netflix, Amazon Prime or HBO. Those services are stuffed with brain bleach that I don't even find entertaining. There are "gold nuggets"[^1] I have enjoyed in those sites, but it's like one or two per year. The rest of my watching time goes to videos of people camping in the wilderness, for lack of a better thing.

[^1]: As in, they are entertaining. Rarely, they are imaginative. Even more seldom, they are educational or contribute to my personal growth.

kranke155 a day ago | parent [-]

Yes we do.

You don’t get it. Those programs are made because they make money. Netflix is profitable because it makes shows that X number of people want to see.

The number of people like yourself who are underserved by stuff to watch is too low to be profitable - or they don’t know how to make a show that would appeal to this group yet.

The dark truth about TV is that it’s what people want to watch. There is no conspiracy. Here is a good Steve Jobs quote on the subject:

“ When you’re young, you look at television and think, There’s a conspiracy. The networks have conspired to dumb us down. But when you get a little older, you realize that’s not true. The networks are in business to give people exactly what they want. That’s a far more depressing thought. Conspiracy is optimistic! You can shoot the bastards! We can have a revolution! But the networks are really in business to give people what they want. It’s the truth.”

Anyway assuming that an industry screwed up because you personally don’t like their product is pretty incredible. No they didnt screw up. They’re just serving people who aren’t quite like yourself.

dsign a day ago | parent | next [-]

And? Two things can be true at the same time. Deadpool Wolverine was 300 million USD to produce. Nobody is going to put that amount of money into producing content for a corner wacko like myself, or Steve Jobs, whom, by your quote, apparently had the same problem (and 300 million USD to spare). But if it can be produced at a fraction of the price, then there is a market. And that's exactly my point.

kranke155 a day ago | parent [-]

What kind of content could you want that’s not on YouTube today?

lolinder a day ago | parent [-]

A few examples:

* Slow, thoughtful, hard sci-fi that's well-written and well acted, with immersive (not campy) sets and effects. Enough of that to fill an evening a week.

* A spiritual successor to Firefly with the same production requirements and release schedule described above.

Even YouTube is bound by the same limitations as the AAA streaming platforms are—you can't sink money into something that's too niche, and right now doing things well costs buckets of money. So I'm sure there are a few fan films on YouTube adjacent to my interests, but their production value is going to be far below what it could be if things were made cheaper.

kranke155 17 hours ago | parent [-]

Yeah afaik Firefly didn't make money even back then. In 2-10 years the tech might be there for this, but it's not there yet.

If you're looking for hard sci fi I really recommend Andor.

lolinder 13 hours ago | parent [-]

Yep, I've watched Andor—it's great sci-fi, but not hard sci-fi.

smegger001 a day ago | parent | prev [-]

Just because they make money from one nich doesn't mean they will appeal to another

kranke155 a day ago | parent [-]

They have limited amount of resources and people have limited time capacity.

They make the most profitable content they can think of.

aaron695 a day ago | parent | prev [-]

[dead]

Ratelman a day ago | parent | prev | next [-]

There are better ways to protest than violating a legally binding agreement - seems more like an emotional reaction than a properly thought through protest.

bryant a day ago | parent | next [-]

In fairness, some of the most effective protests have gone much further than that — they've broken laws. (See basically every civil rights protest)

Breaking contracts seems tame by comparison.

Ratelman a day ago | parent | next [-]

Fair point - and I suppose we are on HACKERnews - and they are OPENAI, so helping them be more open is an effective form of protest.

a day ago | parent | prev [-]
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Retr0id a day ago | parent | prev | next [-]

The most effective forms of protest usually are illegal

HPsquared a day ago | parent | next [-]

It's risky though, if the protest is annoying or damaging enough (antisocial behaviour basically) it can actively turn people away from your position. As in "Oh these are a bunch of insane/evil/violent etc people and that type of person tends to have this type of view, I as a good person do not have these kinds of views"

Ratelman a day ago | parent | prev | next [-]

True, true - didn't think that one through

immibis a day ago | parent | prev [-]

the ONLY effective forms of protest

esperent a day ago | parent | prev | next [-]

You'd rather a politely worded letter to the artist's local newspaper?

Ratelman a day ago | parent | next [-]

Meh, not entirely sure what would work better. Having read through the huggingface post a few times now, suppose it's less of an emotional reaction, more actual protest to abusive practices.

vntok a day ago | parent | prev [-]

I'd rather they do... art?

Why not organize a worldwide protest where every participant produces and shares Art denouncing generative AI? "AI might produce single pieces but this collective work, this is what AI can't do" and so on.

What they're doing is so weird and ineffective in contrast, it baffles me.

Philpax a day ago | parent | next [-]

For three hours, they gave everyone access to create videos with Sora, some of which could very well be art. Not only that, but the form in which they did this and the statement they made could also be considered art. I think they've done well here.

In their statement, they make it clear that they're not opposed to the use of AI in art: they're opposed to the abuse of artists to pretend that OpenAI is doing this for their sake. This serves their perspective better than any juvenile anti-AI quilt could have.

esperent a day ago | parent | prev [-]

> Why not organize a worldwide protest where every participant produces and shares Art denouncing generative AI

Ah yes, a feel good protest that can be completely ignored by everyone, especially OpenAI. Even better, maybe OpenAI could fund it? That way they get to claim they hear the protests but they don't have to actually change anything.

vntok a day ago | parent [-]

Say everyone completely ignores the protest; surely that's a valid data point that should in itself make those artists reflect on their own positions & ideas? Maybe, just maybe, people in the general public actually value generative AI, regardless of what artists think about it?

rafram a day ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I’m comfortable saying that there has never been a good protest in modern history that didn’t violate a legally binding agreement.

Vampiero a day ago | parent | prev | next [-]

If you want to make a legally binding agreement you better pay me first.

tiahura a day ago | parent | prev [-]

They’re artists. Theory of mind is important here.

71bw a day ago | parent | prev [-]

>It seems like signing up as the volunteer with the goal of derailing the company as much as possible is a highly valid form of ptotest.

It's the most immature and pseudointellectual form of protest I can think of. "Oh I am scared of the technology that's coming regardless, let me try and screw everybody else over as well!"

Ratelman a day ago | parent | next [-]

Link to the post: https://huggingface.co/spaces/PR-Puppets/PR-Puppet-Sora If you read through it, they clearly state: "We are not against the use of AI technology as a tool for the arts (if we were, we probably wouldn't have been invited to this program). What we don't agree with is how this artist program has been rolled out and how the tool is shaping up ahead of a possible public release. We are sharing this to the world in the hopes that OpenAI becomes more open, more artist friendly and supports the arts beyond PR stunts."

meheleventyone a day ago | parent | next [-]

This is super interesting and seems to be the first organized push back against the platformization of 'creators' where the power imbalance is so great that corps expect free labor for the chance to become one of few outsized successes and it's whitewashed as 'democratization'.

a day ago | parent | prev [-]
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xkqd a day ago | parent | prev [-]

Well, both of those are subjective terms but if it’s effective it’s effective.

The most effective movements are usually a combination of protest and civil disobedience. Considering livelihoods are under threat I wouldn’t condone nor blame anyone for even going one step further.

HPsquared a day ago | parent | next [-]

I don't know if protest actually does work. It can certainly be used to "legitimise" some course of action preferred by one group of elites. But there are so, so many examples of protest achieving nothing at all - or even having the opposite effect.

rat9988 a day ago | parent | prev [-]

Yes, and bombing openai's headquarters is effective too. Effectiveness isn't a moral compass.

Blahah a day ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Unless they volunteered precisely so that they would have early access and could leak it, which would be sensible.

pineaux a day ago | parent [-]

Which is what they did. So openAI was tricked, boohoo. Should be applauded here on h@x0rn3wz

immibis a day ago | parent [-]

It's Y-Combinator tech-startup-in-a-garage-type-of-hacker news, not CCC-type-of-hacker news or Anonymous-type-of-hacker news.

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tiahura a day ago | parent | prev [-]

I thought it was Levy Hackers?

yyuugg a day ago | parent | prev | next [-]

"We are doing labor, and are not being fairly compensated for our labor" is a hilarious basis? How so?

andersa a day ago | parent [-]

They are free to stop doing it for free? I don't understand.

yyuugg a day ago | parent [-]

Maybe they object to the idea that anyone's labor should be used, for free, to enrich the wealthy. I don't think that's a terrible stance to have, abstractly. I dunno if that was the case here.

moi2388 a day ago | parent | next [-]

Then they simply should not have opted in. I didn’t?

meheleventyone a day ago | parent | next [-]

Someone linked the actual open letter above: https://huggingface.co/spaces/PR-Puppets/PR-Puppet-Sora

If you read it they state quite clearly that they feel like their participation was different than they expected it to be and that's why they are upset.

esperent a day ago | parent | prev [-]

They opted in with the express purpose of protesting, it seems.

rat9988 a day ago | parent [-]

You mean sabotaging.

a day ago | parent [-]
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ramon156 a day ago | parent | prev | next [-]

The fact they said yes at the start shows a form of tunnel vision. I just can't empathize that much with borderline manchildren leaking access to something they got the privilege to

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benreesman a day ago | parent | prev | next [-]

A lot of people refused to hang out with Diddy even if they could put their finger on exactly why.

I know more than most, but the sexual assault allegations and shady restructuring and abuse of the the political process and the multiple firings for financial fraud and, well a lot of stuff, that’s all public record.

Matt Gaetz got run out of DC for less.

dyauspitr 2 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

So stupid. I realize artists are panicking but this angle just makes them look like Luddite villains.

willio58 a day ago | parent | next [-]

I highly recommend reading about luddites! This Smithsonian article covers the topic well: https://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/what-the-luddites-rea...

Basically luddites were never the bad ones, they were protestors against abusive working conditions. They did sabotage the owners of the mills that paid them so poorly, sometimes by destroying machinery, but it was really an underground labor movement that’s super cool to learn about.

CamperBob2 a day ago | parent [-]

No, there was nothing "super cool" about the Luddites. Stop trying to rehabilitate these thugs. Failing that, do it someplace other than a site called "Hacker News."

weweersdfsd a day ago | parent | next [-]

There's nothing wrong with resisting bad working conditions, unfair pay, or getting replaced by a machine without adequate social safety nets in place.

If businesses decide to replace workers with AI, then it's also their collective responsibility to pay for their retraining, or if that isn't possible their social security.

HPsquared a day ago | parent [-]

Surely the morality depends on how they go about their protest.

sensanaty a day ago | parent | prev | next [-]

The Luddite "thugs" were the ones that were getting murdered by the people they were protesting against, a protest which happened because they were about to be replaced while already working in extremely dangerous conditions with terrible compensation.

It's telling that the AI sycophants side with the group that was actually murdering people, however.

CamperBob2 a day ago | parent [-]

a protest which happened because they were about to be replaced while already working in extremely dangerous conditions with terrible compensation.

Gee. Being "replaced" in a job like that sounds like a good career move to me.

The system that prevailed up to that point didn't give them many options, of course... but neither would their response to it. Sabotage doesn't bring progress, no matter who told you that it did, or how much you want to believe it.

yyuugg a day ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Luddites were highly educated, skilled workers whose work was being replaced by machines. They just wanted to operate the machines and share in the increased productivity.

There's absolutely no parallels here, to AI. A machine that is taking work from highly skilled labor ohhhh wait

CamperBob2 a day ago | parent | next [-]

If a machine can take your work, perhaps you weren't as "highly skilled" as you thought you were.

dyauspitr 11 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Sounds like your idea of a machine is a little outdated.

CamperBob2 35 minutes ago | parent [-]

Or your idea of a human being.

We're primates that make and use tools. AI is a tool, so we'll make it and use it. What we won't do is compete with it. We have better things to do.

yyuugg 19 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

[dead]

pineaux a day ago | parent | prev [-]

[flagged]

whamlastxmas 21 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Part of the hacker ethos is being counter to mainstream and challenging authority. Luddites fit in with that perfectly.

CamperBob2 17 hours ago | parent [-]

Taking out your frustrations on the hardware isn't part of any hacker ethos I'm familiar with. I guess times have changed.

atoav a day ago | parent | prev [-]

Or like cool activists that made a stupid-but-rich corp accept them despite their obvious activist goals — who knows.

You assume they changed their mind, there is no data point for that as of now.

pineaux a day ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Hilariously correct you mean?

yread a day ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Yeah, hilarious. Now lets go back to working on open source so that corporations can use it and openai can train on it

hulitu a day ago | parent | prev [-]

> > unpaid labor through bug testing, feedback and experimental work for the program for a $150B valued company”

> This is a hilarious basis for protest

Of course. Every CEO works for free these days. /s