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walrus01 7 months ago

As always when this sort of topic comes up, "don't talk to the police": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d-7o9xYp7eE

I wish that American high schools would teach people what their actual 4th amendment rights are. There's certain situations you cannot avoid being searched, and there's ones where you're fully within your rights to refuse.

jabroni_salad 7 months ago | parent | next [-]

I do celebrate STFU Friday, every day, but airports are kind of a different situation.

If they decide to detain you for a couple hours, you're gonna miss the plane and you aren't going to get a refund or a transfer or whatever. The is so much incentive to play along that doesn't exist at a basic traffic stop.

https://youtu.be/uqo5RYOp4nQ much shorter version of your video :)

LordDragonfang 7 months ago | parent | next [-]

This is yet another insane thing. If you're detained and not charged, you should automatically be given a transfer, no questions asked - and it should be explicitly mandated so.

fusivdh 7 months ago | parent | prev [-]

[dead]

potato3732842 7 months ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Schools will never teach kids their rights to any useful or applicable extent because schools routinely operate in the gray area at the limits and creating a bunch of students who'll call them out on it would make their jobs harder. Same reason they don't do much to teach critical thinking.

BobaFloutist 7 months ago | parent | next [-]

Schools aren't really subject to the Fourth Amendment and students explicitly have lesser constitutional rights, so they don't really need to worry about gray areas or limits.

The main problem with the suggestion is rather that

1. Schools typically do teach students about their Fourth (among other) Amendment rights, usually in a high-school civics class at the very latest, many students just aren't particularly interested or don't particularly care about paying attention in class.

2. Every time there's a skill or pool of knowledge many adults don't have we default to "They should really teach this in school instead of all the other stupid bullshit they waste their time on," but it turns out all the stupid bullshit they waste their time on is other skills or knowledge pools that people have, over the years, agreed that they should really teach in school. So either you're proposing that schools get more funding and students are kept there for more hours to teach all the additional skills you want students to come out with, or you need to choose a subject to cut, and rest assured that any particular subject you choose will have an existing group of advocates leap to its defense - if it didn't, it would have already been cut after Reaganomics, NCLB, the 2008 GFC, COVID19, or the numerous other occasions we've found opportunities to trim school budgets.

indrora 7 months ago | parent [-]

I don't know when you went to high school, but my entire district cut their civics course for being "irrelevant to the educational goals of the district".

I was part of a group of students that did post-school discussions off-campus of civics with those interested, often discussing how it has become harder and harder for students to retain their rights in the public education system.

BobaFloutist 7 months ago | parent [-]

Are there really state standards that don't include the bill of rights in any of civics/US Gov/US History?? I know US public educational varies a lot based on state and locality, but that IS a surprise.

gosub100 7 months ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I am of the opinion that "lockdown" is illegal detention, and conditioning them from a very young age to accept it.

Der_Einzige 7 months ago | parent | prev [-]

The malcom in the middle episode about the ACLU or Rock and roll high school are classic examples of this.

acdha 7 months ago | parent | prev | next [-]

One big problem here is that your ability to insist on your 4th amendment rights varies considerably. The further you are from all of affluent, straight, white, and male the more likely it is that you’ll experience pressure or retaliation if you persist in not cooperating, and in extreme cases that includes illegal detention, violence, or fabrication of evidence.

If your life is a repeating story of having to situationally decide where you’re likely to fall on that scale, you’re probably going to acquiesce because it’s the least stressful option – especially in this case where the easiest retaliation is almost unprovable by “accidentally” making you miss your flight.

UncleMeat 7 months ago | parent [-]

There's also almost no recourse even if your rights are violated. If you are lucky any evidence gets excluded from a future trial. But what about some remedy? It is outrageously difficult to sue individual state police or state police departments. Federal agents are even more protected, with Bivens being slowly crushed into nothingness.

bluGill 7 months ago | parent | prev | next [-]

They are targeting people who are already late. You can demand your 4th amendment rights, and after some "consultation" we will give them to you - but you will miss your flight. Or just let them search your bad, hope they don't take anything and you have a chance to get there on time.

In short you don't really have the option to stand up for your rights.

rolph 7 months ago | parent | prev | next [-]

it all starts in preschool, when officers are modeled as universal friends that always help.

immibis 7 months ago | parent [-]

"PAW Patrol's Dark Secret, Explained": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rwhUpu9MfZ0

barbazoo 7 months ago | parent | prev | next [-]

As a somewhat recent immigrant to Canada, would the consensus be that this applies here as well?

walrus01 7 months ago | parent | next [-]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian_Charter_of_Rights_and...

There is also a whole body of precedents and case law in canada specific to charter rights, broadly similar to US rights, but with different terminology.

Scoundreller 7 months ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Big difference in Canada is that judges can be fully aware of an illegal unconstitutional search but convict you anyway from evidence collected from it if they feel like it.

And fewer jury trials (positive or negative depending on your point of view), and the prosecutor is free to appeal a not guilty ruling.

fusivdh 7 months ago | parent | prev | next [-]

In my experience with both countries, American constitutional rights are stronger, but Canadian police are less corrupt (but universally unpleasant)

MadnessASAP 7 months ago | parent | prev [-]

As walrus01 said, yes the 4th amendment has a almost word for word parallel in the CCRF, specifically section 8:

8. Everyone has the right to be secure against unreasonable search or seizure.

However, it's important to know that the Canadian courts have interpreted the law differently then American courts.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Section_8_of_the_Canadian_Ch...

int_19h 7 months ago | parent [-]

Note further that Section 8 of CCRF is one of the sections that are subject to the "notwithstanding clause" (Section 33), meaning that either the federal parliament or the provincial legislature can enact laws in direct contravention to it, so long as they expressly declare it in the text of the law. Such "notwithstanding" declarations have a 5-year term, but legislature can renew them indefinitely.

So, in practice, the most important parts of CCRF can be overridden by simple majority vote of the legislators.

micromacrofoot 7 months ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I agree, but how ridiculous is the overreach of police when we start suggesting that schools include it in curriculum

wk_end 7 months ago | parent | next [-]

It’s sort of a foundational principle of the American system that power will always overreach, and adversarial checks and balances are always required to keep power in line. Saying it’s ridiculous to teach kids about their rights is, in that light, roughly comparable to saying it’s ridiculous that the government produces documents (i.e. the Bill of Rights) asserting what it can’t do. Far from being ridiculous it’s about as fundamentally American as it gets.

micromacrofoot 7 months ago | parent [-]

It's ridiculous that we have to teach children their rights to avoid them being abused by the government that supposedly enforces them.

This is a sign that our checks and balances don't actually work as well as we think they do.

It's good for children to receive this education, but uhh... why don't the police?

bdowling 7 months ago | parent | prev | next [-]

It’s a joke because most American schools are run by the government.

vundercind 7 months ago | parent | next [-]

Schools have a lot of local autonomy and are among the easiest institutions to influence, for non-rich citizens. Getting your local schools to include more coverage of rights when encountering the police in the curriculum is among the easiest outcomes to pursue as far as changing what “the government” is doing.

if enough other people in your local community agree with you.

criddell 7 months ago | parent | prev | next [-]

And the government is selected by you and your neighbors.

logicchains 7 months ago | parent [-]

Only if you live in a swing county of a swing state.

brewdad 7 months ago | parent [-]

Sorry but the citizens of Detroit don't select the school board in Alpena. Too many Americans focus on a Presidential election every four years that gets decided by a couple hundred thousand people in 4 or 5 states and ignore all of the elections that actually impact their day to day lives.

Get involved in your local elections, even if only becoming an informed citizen. Those are the elections where you can make a difference.

hackernewds 7 months ago | parent | prev [-]

[flagged]

alchemist1e9 7 months ago | parent | next [-]

What do you refer to? I send all my kids to private schools are there anti-private mandates in some places?

spankalee 7 months ago | parent | next [-]

They're probably referring to the very reasonable idea that funds for public schools shouldn't be diverted to private and religious schools under the "school choice" banner because it intentionally defunds public schools for private schools that have very little oversight and standards, and acts as an unneeded subsidy for wealthier families.

vundercind 7 months ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Some folks regard the stance that public school taxes are supposed to pay for having a public school system, not for redistribution to parents to spend on any schools they want, as being tyrannical.

rectang 7 months ago | parent | prev [-]

It's whether or not the government subsidizes your private school via vouchers. The consequence is that public school budgets are further diminished, reducing and eventually eliminating the project to educate the whole citizenry, further stratifying society.

walrus01 7 months ago | parent | prev [-]

In this case I think "private choice" is a dog whistle for "I want to take funds away from the local public school system by having voucher money from it, for my kids, to give to some ideologically oriented private school".

When you start complaining that everything you don't like is fascism/socialism, you're just cosplaying as being oppressed.

bdowling 7 months ago | parent [-]

It's a shame, because school choice could be a rallying cry for "Tax the rich to pay for private schools for all kids."

Nasrudith 7 months ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Forget schools, we already have to talk to kids about how to act around the police like they are some dangerous animal. Except if they were some dangerous animal we would have done the sensible thing and shot them all already.

walrus01 7 months ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Indeed, though I would also hope that it could be included in a more general and varied curriculum about the constitution and bill of rights, all other amendments, civil rights act, etc.

Eumenes 7 months ago | parent | prev [-]

Quit the hyperbole. This seems like a basic Civics class topic.

micromacrofoot 7 months ago | parent [-]

Get your tongue off the boot for a second, read this, and come back to tell me it's hyperbole

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_forfeiture_in_the_United...

Knowing your rights shouldn't be a prerequisite to avoiding government theft.

7 months ago | parent | prev [-]
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