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charliebwrites 18 hours ago

I wish I could pay Starlink directly and have global satellite based LTE instead of having to go through a specific carrier and be limited by other carriers’ reciprocity to specific countries and bands

One space based cell plan for the whole world

Retric 18 hours ago | parent | next [-]

It’s not going to work inside buildings, and they would need to charge you a fairly astronomical fee per minute.

However, a Starlink mini dish can let you cheaply make calls from basically anywhere with some minor setup.

christophilus 18 hours ago | parent | next [-]

> astronomical fee

inglor_cz 18 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Compared to what?

Traditional satellite phone corporations used to charge something like 8 USD/min.

Retric 18 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Compared to leveraging the existing cellular networks and using satellites for rare edge cases. ~8$/minute or say 1$/minute averages out to a more reasonable number when less than 5% of calls use it.

inglor_cz 18 hours ago | parent [-]

Not for somebody whose job is outside the existing networks, such as sailors.

Retric 18 hours ago | parent [-]

Sailors can make calls using the ships Wi-Fi via full sized Starlink dishes, they need coverage on land.

But even ignoring that the contention is low in the middle of the ocean and satellites have hardware either way, driving down the market rate for calls at sea.

PaulDavisThe1st 17 hours ago | parent [-]

The setup cost for Starlink on a boat is still massively higher than on land.

dasv 16 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Yes, but compared to the setup for equivalent satellite services it is very cheap. The Inmarsat antennas need active compensation and they sit inside big radomes, while the Starlink antennas are smaller and do not need to move thanks to being phased arrays.

The bandwidth, latency and stability that Starlink has is also leagues better than geosynch based solutions, for a much lower monthly price.

Even without considering the better performance, the price makes it viable now to have a internet connections in places it did not make financial sense before.

Retric 16 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

250$/month gets you 50GB/month on the open ocean and unlimited on waterways, higher demand is cheaper per GB ex: 1TB for 1,000$/month. https://www.starlink.com/boats

Calls are ~0.75 MB/minute allowing a 24/7 conversion for for a full month for 250$, or more realistically mostly sending other kinds of data and a sub cent per minute opportunity cost for using that data on calls. The actual hardware installation is relatively trivial compared to operating a boat.

throwaway2037 14 hours ago | parent [-]

Is the reason that Starlink charges so much more for boats is low competition? Or is there something obviously much more complex / expensive about beaming gigs of data from space over the ocean vs land? I don't write this post with any spite; I am genuinely curious.

Retric 10 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Starlink is normally a single hop from a home to a satellite and then down to a base station hooked up to fiber. To work over the ocean you pass messages between satellites potentially several hops and then eventually down to a base station, but that’s inherently constrained as with all mess topologies you get far less bandwidth than initially seems possible.

So in part it’s overhead to deal with inefficiencies and in part it’s a limited customer base for a lot of hardware, but it’s also just what the market will bare.

throwaway2037 4 hours ago | parent [-]

    > Starlink is normally a single hop from a home to a satellite and then down to a base station
Is this true? If yes, how do you know it?
mike_hearn 3 hours ago | parent [-]

When it launched there was no inter-satellite connectivity at all.

Spooky23 14 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

It’s priced based on value. 8oz of Coke costs vary at a supermarket shelf, gas station and an airplane.

threeseed 15 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

There are plenty of YouTube videos showing Starlink on basic sailing yachts.

It takes a day at most if you want a simple setup.

lr1970 14 hours ago | parent [-]

My friend is a boat captain in Florida.He says that Starlink on his boat changed his life.

tomjen3 17 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I think OP is pointing out the pun in this case.

bt1a 17 hours ago | parent [-]

I concur, and I appreciate the pun :)

jcims 18 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Terrestrial fees

yjftsjthsd-h 17 hours ago | parent [-]

LEO fees?

ubj 17 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Yep, definitely beyond sky-high prices :)

moffkalast 16 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Well it's n̵o̵t̵ rocket science.

vodkapump 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

The inside buildings part would be mostly solved with VoWiFi. At least anywhere with a network you'd be comfortable connecting to.

bilsbie 15 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Could future versions work in buildings? What’s the issue there? Just that it’s father away than a cell tower is?

0xffff2 13 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Starlink signals are essentially line of sight right now. The bump up in power to penetrate even a single layer of drywall is almost certainly way outside the power budget of a Starlink satellite.

jazzyjackson 12 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Whether a material is opaque to it. Buildings are transparent to lower frequency radio. Imagine that the satellites transmitted in visible light, doesnt really matter how powerful it is if you're in a room with no windows.

ChocolateGod 17 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Could Starlink receivers not act as a mesh like network and broadcast LTE themselves, gaining inside coverage.

Retric 16 hours ago | parent [-]

Starlink is used in low density areas. You could setup LTE towers at a remote mine and use Starlink for the back haul, but for their customers using WiFi calling gives the same benefit without extra hardware.

User23 16 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

My 5g doesn't work inside of many buildings.

Scoundreller 14 hours ago | parent | next [-]

because providers retain their more penetrating frequencies on the 3G or 4G signal to maintain universal coverage

keeping the close-by phones on 5G to ease congestion and letting the fringe sit on 3G or 4G makes sense

dotBen 15 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Definitely on T Mobile, then

Reason077 16 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Starlink would need to license LTE spectrum in every country it operated. Much easier to work with local carriers and piggyback on their existing bandwidth.

mrandish 15 hours ago | parent | next [-]

> license LTE spectrum in every country

I think this is the biggest reason. All nation's governments will absolutely ensure, overtly or covertly, that their national regulators limit any space-based supra-national system from being able to threaten their national telephony and data carriers. Why? Preventing losing national capabilities, government revenue (taxes, licenses & other domestic carrier fees, lobbying, kickbacks, bribes, etc) and, most importantly, losing the ability to snoop at will on calls and data (at least metadata if not full-take). Even in countries where the major carriers are all based in other nations, existing towers being land-based creates jurisdiction for the government to control and tax.

While many westernized democracies like to proclaim their commitment to freedom, rule of law and individual human rights - in practice there are currently zero governments on earth free enough to not consider loss of that absolute control over citizen's private communication an existential threat. Even in places where existing laws don't currently make it illegal, as soon as technology enables it - it will certainly be made illegal (by any means necessary). I assume SpaceX is smart enough to understand this reality.

sangnoir 15 hours ago | parent | next [-]

> All nation's governments will absolutely ensure, overtly or covertly, that their national regulators limit any space-based supra-national system from being able to threaten their national telephony and data carriers

The ITU is pretty overt about how frequency allocation governance works. Absolutely no one wants a free-for-all frequency regime, for a multitude of reasons - not even SpaceX.

You may recall that Huawei 5G equipment was expunged from domestically-controlled, western infrastructure without having broken any laws, due to fears of future abuse. Your suggestion of a foreign company unilaterally, and illegally[1] imposing it's foreign-controlled, space-based phone network goes much further than whatever fears Washington had over Huawei.

1. Pretty much every country on earth with a government regulates how radio spectrum is licensed for telecommunications, not for the purposes of control as an end, but coordination and preventing interference.

perihelions 5 hours ago | parent | next [-]

- "...without having broken any laws, due to fears of future abuse..."

Well, how did those predictions of the future perform?

- "The Chinese government espionage campaign that has deeply penetrated more than a dozen U.S. telecommunications companies is the “worst telecom hack in our nation’s history — by far,” a senior U.S. senator told The Washington Post in an interview this week."

https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/2024/11/21/...

lmm 9 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

> You may recall that Huawei 5G equipment was expunged from domestically-controlled, western infrastructure without having broken any laws, due to fears of future abuse. Your suggestion of a foreign company unilaterally, and illegally[1] imposing it's foreign-controlled, space-based phone network goes much further than whatever fears Washington had over Huawei.

Radio Free Europe has been doing something similar successfully for what, 70 years? Of course being in violation of a given country's laws is a tradeoff.

thelittleone 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

An example is flying over India. Satellite internet service is not permitted. It cuts off the moment your flight crossed land in India and usually re-actives immediately after leaving.

jaimex2 10 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Would they? Given the satelites are in space I would assume pirate radio loopholes apply.

pbmonster 6 hours ago | parent [-]

Pirate radio is a lot less fun to run if you need it to be two-way.

Because you need your customers on the ground to run their own pirate transmitter (which can be located and penalized by ground authorities), and your satellites need to receive signals from the ground - which ground authorities from first-world countries can make arbitrarily difficult, deciphering a multitude of <1W transmission from customer cellphones is kinda difficult when a modern electronic warfare radar transmitter is tracking your satellite at the same time.

mrweasel 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Others have already touched on the technical and regulatory issues, but also think of pricing. Would they price is like the US carriers do, or would they price it like a Scandinavian carrier?

If they want customers all over the world, they'd need to match the cheapest offering, as it's hard to argue that the service for some reason is more expensive in the US. I tried finding the price for a US cell phone plan, I can't actually do it. AT&T is impossible to navigate and always seems to bundle a phone. Mint Mobile tries to push 3, 6 or 12 months, which isn't even legal and the plans still come in at $40 for what is a $25 plan here in Denmark (with no additional fees).

If Starlink launched a world view subscription, at competitive prices they'd immediately crash the US cell service market.

nurumaik 2 hours ago | parent [-]

For travellers, they only need to match other global esims, which are quite expensive

kortilla 17 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I suspect the primary reason they took this approach is that licensing for these frequencies is astronomical if you want to cover the entire US. That would bleed them dry as they build out the constellation and try to ramp up user count.

Partnering with a national carrier handles the licensing aspect and if the tech pans out the economics could shift to allow them to buy national spectrum and offer direct service.

joecool1029 14 hours ago | parent [-]

It's not acquiring the spectrum that's an issue right now. It's it not interfering with terrestrial networks. Euro carriers already pushing back against relaxing emissions restrictions for DTC specifically: https://www.fcc.gov/ecfs/document/10930985930353/1

throwaway2037 14 hours ago | parent [-]

Help me: Is DTC "direct-to-consumer"? I tried to Google for it, but I didn't find anything obvious. Else, hat tip for this FCC find! What a great share on HN.

quailfarmer 13 hours ago | parent [-]

“Direct to cell”

egorfine 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> One space based cell plan for the whole world

And then one day: one censorship for the whole world.

No, thank you. The availability of different providers in different jurisdictions is crucial for thwarting world to function. I speak as a person from a country with government censorship implemented.

harrall 16 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I can’t imagine satellites being able to compete with cell towers in bandwidth or capacity.

There are millions of cell towers.

During a major event, cellular companies set up portable cell towers (COWs) and even these are not enough.

And a cell tower that is right next to you still pales in comparison to a single cable in bandwidth.

tssva 14 hours ago | parent | next [-]

They aren't trying to compete with cell towers. SpaceX is partnered with traditional carriers in each country where LTE service will be available and the Starlink service is intended to supplement those services by providing service where existing cell towers can't.

torginus 15 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Yup. Small cell size is actually a feature for cell phone communications. You have to share bandwidth with everyone in your cell - the smaller the cell, the less crowding.

This is a general starlink issue, which is why I don't understand how is it economically or physically viable in crowded areas, such as cities, where the majority of human population lives.

verzali 6 hours ago | parent [-]

It's not. They don't have the capacity to cover densely populated areas and it will always be cheaper to build out infrastructure on land in those areas than to launch something into space.

torginus 3 hours ago | parent [-]

Honestly try as I might, I have failed to undestand your reply. Who is 'they' in your post?

Aren't you actually agreeing with me in actuality (in that cells are better than satellites for densely populated areas)?

minetest2048 16 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Adding to this: I wish I can just buy a 4G modem for my cubesat and get 24/7 access through Starlink without waiting for my cubesats to be in view of my groundstation...

markps 13 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Have you looked into AWS Ground Station? I don’t know if it’s economical, or has enough locations for 24/7 access, but it might be better than once an orbit.

minetest2048 4 hours ago | parent [-]

All ground station as a service are limited by radio licensing, you need to apply for transmit license to the country that the groundstation is located to legally transmit to your cubesat. Its not as easy as spinning up an EC2 instance

Some regulation horror: https://www.itu.int/en/ITU-R/space/Pages/API.aspx . Worst case you need to wait 7 years! to get your radio license

Compare this to a 4G modem / smartphone, its amazing that you don't need to file spectrum license to another country version of FCC everytime you travel. It. Just. Worked.

verzali 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

There's IDRS that does this for satellites.

minetest2048 4 hours ago | parent [-]

At first I thought you misspelled TDRSS but then I found out that IDRS is a thing: https://www.idrsspace.com/

Its too big and power hungry to fit inside 10x20x30 cm cubesat though :( More reason to go bigger

jareklupinski 16 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

i wouldnt need more than 1MBit to ssh into my servers comfortably, and pull directions to the nearest "full power downlink" if i want to listen to music while i work or something

fragmede 13 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

That sounds super fascinating. Can you tell us more about your cubesat?

ggernov 18 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I was curious about this! I wish this was a perk of owning / purchasing a Tesla or a more expensive option of Starlink terminal.

rlt 17 hours ago | parent | next [-]

It’s kind of crazy Tesla hasn’t partnered with SpaceX to provide Starlink as an option.

numpad0 17 hours ago | parent | next [-]

I think the fact that they haven't may be kind of indicative. Last I searched it had supported maximum local device density of just handful in miles.

chrisco255 13 hours ago | parent [-]

That can't be true. I've stayed in campgrounds with dozens of Starlink dishes deployed.

pbmonster 6 hours ago | parent [-]

The cells are large, dozens of dishes in one location are not a problem if there's few other dishes for miles in any direction.

foobarbecue 15 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

That reminds me, I wonder what they did about the Subaru Starlink trademark.

tssva 14 hours ago | parent [-]

Subaru filed in 2021 to have SpaceX's Starlink trademark cancelled. The case is still pending.

dzhiurgis 17 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Kinda not. Generally if you got road you got reception. Only wilderness areas don’t. For few people who go camping, etc the standalone miniterminal makes most sense.

yjftsjthsd-h 17 hours ago | parent [-]

> Generally if you got road you got reception.

Er, if you got highway, maybe? I assure you there are plenty of roads that have poor cell reception.

seb1204 16 hours ago | parent | next [-]

100% speak to A German high speed rail traveller and she will tell you all about the white spots

petesergeant 16 hours ago | parent [-]

Any idea of the etymology for calling it a "white spot"? Assuming this is a German thing

ben_w 15 hours ago | parent [-]

Terra Incognita — the part of a map that is blank and therefore white: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wei%C3%9Fer_Fleck

dzhiurgis 15 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Yes there are, but I my guess is 95%+ of car miles are in areas with good reception. If you are building roads putting cell reception there is trivial.

17 hours ago | parent | prev [-]
[deleted]
ianburrell 12 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Direct to Cell has pretty low bandwidth. The total bandwidth is 4Mbps per cell, with each person getting kpbs. If they do offer internet, it will be like 2G or dialup.

ignoramous 18 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> One space based cell plan for the whole world

The baseband on handheld devices do not have that much power to transmit and receive from Starlink directly; and hence the partnership with MNOs. With 5G (after Google & Meta got involved, the designs took on a Cloud/Internet-heavy focus), Starlink very well might have "slices" carved out exclusive for its own use world over.

See also: Cloudflare's Zero-Trust SIM (2022), https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32982697

rblatz 18 hours ago | parent | next [-]

> The baseband on handheld devices do not have that much power to transmit and receive from Starlink directly;

That is exactly what this is about, direct from standard handsets to starlink satellites.

philipwhiuk 17 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

> The baseband on handheld devices do not have that much power to transmit and receive from Starlink directly

It turns out they do.

Tuna-Fish 15 hours ago | parent [-]

They do, but only with very low bandwidth. The initial service is just sms messages, nothing else.

1024core 15 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Doesn't T-Mobile come close to that? I've heard that T-Mo works in most countries across the globe.

kelnos 16 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I see where you're coming from, but I prefer to have the relationship with a single entity (my cellular carrier) and get access to both. Simpler to deal with.

Agreed on the potential complication if/when I'm in another country, but, well, everything can't be simple...

FpUser 18 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

>"One space based cell plan for the whole world"

And a single entity to decide who gets disconnected if they do not behave

hackernewds 18 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

It will happen over time

nordsieck 18 hours ago | parent [-]

> It will happen over time

I'm optimistic.

I think that, once SpaceX starts launch Starlink satellites with Starship, they'll be able to increase their globally available bandwidth by a factor of 5-10x (although it might take 5 years to roll out). A lot of that bandwidth will be eaten up by existing demand. But hopefully some of it will enable novel services like global cell service through a single provider (even if it's limited to low bandwidth applications like text and voice).

paxys 17 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Are you planning to be in direct line of sight to a Starlink satellite 24x7?

PaulDavisThe1st 17 hours ago | parent [-]

Starlink's certainly planning on that, more or less.

paxys 17 hours ago | parent [-]

Unless they can remove buildings from this world, that isn't going to be a reality.

PaulDavisThe1st 16 hours ago | parent [-]

ah, people live in cities with hi-rise buildings. silly me.

schiffern 17 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Not really feasible. The only reason Starlink DTC works is because it's not trying to supply coverage inside dense cities.

Musk mentions this in the very first announcement of Starlink. https://youtu.be/AHeZHyOnsm4?t=191

chrisco255 13 hours ago | parent [-]

That was 9 years ago and a lot has changed since then. They're moving to 3rd generation devices which have higher bandwidth and now have thousands of satellites deployed. Once Starship is able to deploy payloads, they'll increase the number of satellites even more quickly.

schiffern 7 hours ago | parent [-]

A lot has changed, but the calculus of fiber vs. satellites hasn't. Fiber (and fiber-served cellular) is good for high density, satellites are good for low density.