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comex 3 days ago

“Play Games. Win Big.” seems to be their current website’s slogan. In your archive link the same text instead reads “Banking for Winners”, which helps explain why people would be putting their life savings into this thing. In the small text below, they did say “Yotta is a financial technology company, not a bank.”, but that was immediately followed by: “Banking services provided by Evolve Bank & Trust and Thread Bank; Members FDIC.”

And they weren’t lying about that. This isn’t some cryptocurrency rug pull. They really were operating under the regulated financial system, in concert with banks. It isn’t even a situation where someone stole the money, as far as anyone can tell.

Sure, perhaps customers should have avoided the company for independent reasons, like the bad interest rate or the risk of it being an outright scam. But it’s hard for me to blame them when the actual failure mode was completely different and unexpected.

UltraSane 2 days ago | parent | next [-]

The core issue seems to be that a company named Synapse was a middleman to a lot of fintech startups and spread money around various banks but didn't actually keep very accurate records of balances. Evolve bank noticed this and hired a fancy consulting firm named Ankura to reconcile 100 million transactions. But most of the money is still lost in the various banks that Synapse used. The core issue is why is it so hard to use Synapse's records to find where the money is? And the various banks that Synapse used should be able to work together to reconcile the money. I wonder if most the missing money was just embezzled.

IggleSniggle 2 days ago | parent [-]

Totally sounded like embezzlement to me too. Somebody at Synapse making the records intentionally unreconcilable/vague somewhere in the accounting chain so that they could claim some portion of that as their own. I guess it could be gross incompetence, but the embezzlement story actually seems more plausible in this scenario, especially given the animosity between the corporate parties involved. Maybe an incompetent CEO at Synapse who really believes the vague numbers they were given that doesn't line up well with the other banks' own records. The fact that there was a lottery system baked in that grabbed from a pool of "cash winnings" that was financed by the interest rates of deposits at other banks just adds to the opportunities for embezzlement. An employee "gets lucky" with the gambling setup a few times with a pot that is non-attributable, says more money needs to get transferred to the pot because somebody won a payout, etc

anon84873628 2 days ago | parent | next [-]

The current lack of collaboration between the banks makes it seem like they believe this too. The ones that had funds paid out already so they could avoid holding the bag. Whereas Evolve is the last one standing when the music stopped and is now taking the reputation hit.

UltraSane 2 days ago | parent | prev [-]

In finance the usual rule is flipped, and you should never attribute to incompetence that which can be explained by greed.

K0balt 3 days ago | parent | prev | next [-]

In finance, you should never assume incompetence over malice. It very rarely works out that way. Malicious incompetence maybe.

This is probably a rug pull in a system designed for money laundering. They can’t figure out where money came from or who it belonged to…. I don’t think that happened out of the blue using standard accounting practices.

By mixing non-bank money companies and traditional banking services, you can construct an effectively opaque and ultra efficient system to obfuscate the origins of funds, all without deviation in an obvious way from what looks like standard accounting. All of the best money laundering happens in plain sight within the banking industry through clever constructions. AML rules are just there to eliminate the competition.

My guess is that it was time to shut down and the fingerprints had to be burned. Maybe no customer money was stolen, but the data of who has what money and who it belonged to might be hopelessly obfuscated in the process of obfuscation of their primary activities.

This is not likely an example of sloppy accounting, but rather of very, very clever accounting and orchestrated fraud to make money disappear out of an otherwise well designed system of accounting. The real question is where did the fraud propagate out of? What was the exploit, what was the systemic vulnerability, and who exploited it?

There is a huge incentive in fintech to create “legitimate products“ where John Q. Public deposits funds that just happen to be very useful for money laundering when combined with some other, apparently unrelated activity or similar lever that only an insider knows how to pull. It works fundamentally like a cryptocurrency coin mixer, without the hassle or suspicious profile. Shifting burdens of documentation often have gaps where things can “get lost” and shell companies that act only as conduits and never hold funds can evaporate with little accountability. Often, “unknowing” accomplice banks are left holding the bag…but all you have to figure out is where to repatriate the money that people will come looking for, the flows you know no one is going to come asking about effectively never happened.

Meanwhile it’s very easy to take a margin of 10 percent or more of the flows. And they aren’t small flows. It’s a multibillion dollar market. The demand and the incentives are absolutely spectacular.

For the most part, these crimes are invisible to the public, very difficult to prosecute, and effectively impossible to garner the political support to even launch an investigation into, for reasons.

I hope the hapless victims at least get their money back some day.

zaphar 2 days ago | parent [-]

I disagree with this previous premise: In finance, you should never assume incompetence over malice. It very rarely works out that way. Malicious incompetence maybe.

I suspect it's informed more by confirmation bias fed by the news cycle than actual facts. And Misty likely the rule of thumb featuring incompetence still holds.

K0balt 2 days ago | parent [-]

I have very good reason to believe otherwise, but I do prefer your view of the world if given a choice. It’s a happier path to stay on until you find it no longer fits your experience.

Kinda like the billions of dollars that the DOD “can’t” account for.

You ever try to get the DOD to hand you a few million dollars? There’s a bit of paperwork involved.

Accounting is not hit or miss, and it’s not exactly an unexplored frontier. Its a pretty safe bet that when a well funded, fully staffed organization “can’t” account for some amount of money, it’s because someone along that path wanted it to be that way, or was negligent in such a way that it is equivalent to intent.

To clarify, I’m not maligning the DOD here. It’s just their way of saying “you don’t need to know.” Overall, the DOD is a great business partner, and I would recommend anyone with relevant high quality services to look into contracting with them. Aside from the relatively stringent paperwork requirements, they are responsive, diligent, and pleasant to work with.

zaphar 2 days ago | parent [-]

There is a big difference between can't and won't. In the DoD case they "won't" for legal, and/or national security reasons. In the Synapse case I have no problem believing they can't because a bunch of tech "entrepreneurs" who think they can just break into as complicated an industry as money transfers are exactly the kind of people I would totally expect to mess it up without realizing it.

Most things are more complicated than people think from the outside and it's way easier to be incompetent at something than people think. That's the whole point of the rule in the first place.

K0balt 2 days ago | parent [-]

I guess you are assuming that they did not employ an accounting firm or accountants to assist with the design of their system?

If that is the case (non-accountants attempting accounting, or not bothering, perhaps) then you have a point… but I doubt that is what happened.

It would be grossly negligent crossing into malfeasance, and probably criminally illegal to operate a money business without proper accounting supervision (and accounting is a regulated, qualified profession similar to law)

But, if that is indeed what happened, I look forward to seeing the founders in federal prison. I just kinda doubt they ran a banking startup without ever consulting a lawyer or an accountant.

salawat 2 days ago | parent [-]

...Because there are no shady accountants or lawyers more motivated by a quick buck to be made, with the wherewithal to stay reasonably distant from anything blatantly capable of blowing back on them. Surely.

K0balt 2 days ago | parent [-]

So then you are saying it -was- Malfeasance?

So I guess we agree then. Welcome to the dark side.

dehrmann 3 days ago | parent | prev [-]

> bad interest rate

That link shows 2.7% in Sept., 2023. It should have been more like 5%.

The yellow flag should have been the sketchy "win prizes" part of their offering that the article didn't really mention. What's this pseudo bank's innovation? A raffle?

I still agree that weren't actual signs of sloppy accounting customers should have seen, and as it really does look like customer funds were supposed to get deposited in an actual bank.

mehlmao 2 days ago | parent | next [-]

Not sure what Yotta is like now (or was in 2023), but it used to be a very good rate. I think I opened my account in early 2020. Went back and checked my notes for details:

Every week, you would get a lottery ticket for every $25 in your account. In July 2020, expected value for a ticket was $.0227 ($.0157 if you exclude the jackpot, Tesla, and other top prizes that you were statistically unlikely to ever win). They also paid out a base APY of .20%, which was higher than savings accounts at a lot of big banks.

Adding those together, the APY came between 3.51% and 5.02%, which was good compared to most banks at the time. Over time they made changes which decreased the expected value of each ticket, I closed my account in 2021 when the rate was no longer competitive. Looks like I quit at the right time.

gruez 2 days ago | parent | prev [-]

>What's this pseudo bank's innovation? A raffle?

Who cares if it's just "a raffle"? Some behavioral economics research suggests it's a good way to get people to save, and it's not something offered by mainstream banks.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prize-linked_savings_account

FactKnower69 2 days ago | parent [-]

Disgusting, infantilizing worldview. Fix the culture instead of chasing it. These imbecilic "behavioral economists" can't wait to live in a world where you get a Free* Grimace Shake with every root canal at participating McDonalds(R) McDentists™.

gruez 2 days ago | parent [-]

>Disgusting, infantilizing worldview. Fix the culture instead of chasing it.

Easier said than done. If you think it's so easy to change behavior, run an economics experiment to prove it. You'll probably even win a nobel prize. In the meantime, I'm going to support whatever actually works, rather than holding out for an ideal solution