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▲ cmiles8 3 hours ago

I would never let my child play contact football. The data is beyond clear that this sport causes irreparable life altering damage to the brain.

A lot of football players also suffer from mental health issues which, not to state the obvious, is likely not helped by banging your head all the time.

▲wdr1 3 minutes ago | parent | next [-]

Respectfully, did you ever play tackle football? I ask because it's easy to look at something you're not familiar with & not see the value.

I played football in high school & college. Did I get hurt? Yes. But I also got hurt in other sports. My worst injury by far was in baseball (it required ~22 stitches & I couldn't see out of one eye for a while).

With every activity there's a tradeoff with risk.

Let's say we take tackle football off the table. We ban it from high schools, justifying it based on a study showing it produced 3.96 injuries per 1,000 practices or competitions & 8.22 concussions per 10,000 (the highest for both).[1]

Okay, but then do we also ban woman's soccer?

It's the second highest, at 2.65 injuries per 1,000 practices or competitions and 6.11 concussions per 10,000.

Or why let our children take any risk?

As a parent, I know I can't shelter my children. They have to take some risk. I let my children ride a bike, knowing full well there is a non-zero chance he could get by a car. We live in a big city & I let my pre-teen walk to meet a friend at a local burger joint for lunch, knowing full well there are bad people in the world who might do something untoward to him.

As for CTE specifically, I am very concerned about in the NFL. I have mixed feelings if I'm complicit in things by watching. As a diehard Bears fan, I found Dave Duerson's story heartbreaking. I'm supportive of the guardian helmets and hope the league starts to mandate them.

But the athletes in the NFL are not like amateurs. They are far bigger, far stronger, far faster. You can't take the CTE data from professional & extrapolate it to high school, etc.

[1] https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC11113040

▲chrisBob 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I am surprised by the otherwise intelligent and caring parents I have met who had their elementary schoolers playing tackle football. I don't understand that decision at all.

▲ilamont 2 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Same here. When did Boston University start publishing about the CTE/football connection? 10 or 15 years ago? A couple I know, one with a public health degree from an Ivy, still let one of her kids play through all of that, and he played at the college level, too.

At the same time, a lot of parents (myself included) steered kids to other sports. That had another effect: there was even more pressure on parents who didn't care about CTE (and their kids) to get into football because kiddie leagues and especially high school teams were short of players. This happened to a friend whose two boys were strong hockey players, the coach at their school pushed them to try out for football the following season.

▲wat10000 an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-]

It's a deeply ingrained cultural tradition in a lot of places. It's an extremely hard sell to tell people to reject their traditions because of a relatively nebulous and uncertain danger. "I played football and I was fine" is a powerful argument.

▲alex43578 39 minutes ago | parent | next [-]

Still doesn’t mean you can’t look at those people as foolish, no different than if they handed a cigarette to their teen or let their kid get obese.

▲lotsofpulp 25 minutes ago | parent | prev [-]

CTE is not nebulous and uncertain. If it were not for "tradition", it would be considered child abuse to let them repeatedly slam their brains into their skulls.

▲wat10000 3 minutes ago | parent [-]

It absolutely is when we're talking about humans evaluating risk in the context of an important part of their culture. The consequences come decades later and are far from certain.

▲badgersnake 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Unless it’s actually banned below a certain age, what are you going to do if that’s what they want to do with their life?

If they don’t play and everyone else does, their development will be many years behind their peers which makes it unlikely they could play at a high level.

But maybe you’re okay with that.

▲swatcoder 2 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Yes, I think parents who see tackle football as an unsafe sport for their children are okay with not setting up their kids to play it at a high level.

And like any responsible parents, they presumably also don't just defer to what they're elementary aged children "want to do with their life" nor feed into the exaggeration that "everybody else" does anything at all, let alone play tackle football.

If you disagree with the dangers of the sport or are afraid of shaping your children's life choices for their own benefit, that's fine for you, but the rhetorical and snide way you presume others should share that view seems strange.

▲everdrive an hour ago | parent | next [-]

>And like any responsible parents, they presumably also don't just defer to what their elementary aged children "want to do with their life" nor feed into the exaggeration that "everybody else" does anything at all, let alone play tackle football.

This is the only wise position. Despite the common and misleading film tropes, children do not know themselves perfectly. Often the adults "holding them back" are doing those children a great favor.

▲badgersnake an hour ago | parent | prev [-]

I guess you missed the point so why don’t I spell it out to you.

The correct thing to do is to ban tackle football below a certain age. Probably college. That levels the playing field.

▲swatcoder 44 minutes ago | parent [-]

Ah. Yes, I didn't pick that up in what you wrote. The seeming fatalism about how there's not much to do until or unless that happens eclipsed it. That seemed to be the focus of your comment and I could only re-contextualize it once you made it more clear her.

Sorry about the misread!

▲amanaplanacanal 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

If they don't play a game which damages their brain when they are children, they won't be able to go into a career which damages their brain as an adult. Hmmm.

▲wat10000 an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-]

99.9% of high school football players aren't good enough to make a career out of it no matter what they do. Avoiding literal brain damage at the cost of forcing my child into a group they're virtually certain to be in anyway seems totally fine.

▲kakacik 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Gotta stick to the crowd at all costs, its so uncomfortable outside of it right

▲pton_xd an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I tried contact football in 7th grade and only lasted a few practice sessions. I was shocked by what I saw; other kids throwing their bodies into each other as if they were just bags of meat, sometimes colliding head-on. The ferocity with which they did it seemed like a source of pride for them and there was this sense of one-upmanship on who could tackle the best. The whole thing felt insane to me and I backed out immediately. I was involved in other sports like baseball and basketball so I was used to competitiveness, but nothing on that level of disregard for safety.

▲dfxm12 3 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I see you emphasize "this" sport. I think it is important to understand that American football happens to be studied & reported very rigorously at this point in time. I hope you recognize that players of many other contact sports suffer higher rates of neurodegenerative disease that the average person, like all sorts of combat sports, association football, hockey, etc...

To the NFL's credit, they have made rules and equipment changes to address this.

▲jimbokun an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Equivalent of boxing and other combat sports, I suppose. Equipment that makes a sport almost requiring high speed collisions on every play safe doesn’t exist.

▲boplicity 20 minutes ago | parent [-]

They should remove all padding and safety equipment, and institute severe penalties for any contact that could cause injury. The sport would probably become sane, but people like the violence, so this isn't going to happen.

▲Forgeties79 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Tackle football is basically the only sport my kids are not allowed to play. I don’t talk about it because I don’t want it to become something forbidden and therefore cool, but if they naturally find their way there and start getting pushy about it, it’s one of the few things I’m prepared to put my foot down about with no compromise.

▲brianwawok an hour ago | parent [-]

Football, boxing... seem the top two to cross off. I think skiing is perhaps the third to cross off.

▲KingMachiavelli 41 minutes ago | parent | next [-]

Skiing is pretty awesome and IMO risk of concussion or serious injury is very low if you are not a freestyle or extremely aggressive/risky skier.

Football and boxing involve guaranteed sub-concussion head impacts every session and likely full concussions at least a few times a year.

▲kenjackson 32 minutes ago | parent [-]

A few years ago in my team of 12 -- we had 4 people in knee braces due to injuries from skiing. Given how little people actually ski, it seems like the sport with the highest injury rate (injuries per minute) -- at least based on my anecdotal data.

▲jr3592 14 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Skiiing? Please do explain

▲Forgeties79 7 minutes ago | parent [-]

Skiing becomes incredibly dangerous once you get into like…your 40s and beyond unless you have been doing it pretty consistently your whole life. And even then it’s still very dangerous. High speeds, downhill, crashes are serious.

It’s a sport many people step away from for long periods of time (I.e. the muscles aren’t in shape and they're rusty) and it demands a lot unless you’re sticking to bunny slopes.

▲badc0ffee an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-]

At least with skiing, getting hit in the head isn't the point.

▲ an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-]
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▲ErroneousBosh an hour ago | parent | prev [-]

Wait until you hear about shinty.

Have you ever seen ice hockey? Okay well imagine that if it was on a field and if you made it into a really fast and violent contact sport.

▲unregistereddev 31 minutes ago | parent [-]

I'm interested and after work will look for video to better understand game action. But there's no way that shinty is "really fast" compared to ice hockey. Ice hockey players routinely move 15-20mph (~24-32km/h) and occasionally sprint upwards of 25mph (40km/h).

▲thrwaway73637 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

playing at nfl level and kid level is something very different

▲estearum 2 hours ago | parent | next [-]

As someone who has had multiple concussions in other sports, the impacts in youth football are absolutely sufficient to cause concussions and more minor (but still cumulatively damaging) trauma. The fact that they're a repeated part of the game and not occasional incidents is very, very bad.

Requiring a child to play football should be actual child abuse, and even allowing it should be frowned upon the way that letting a child play with a blowtorch is.

▲thrwaway73637 2 hours ago | parent [-]

there you said it: you got concusions from other sports. so why single out football as the worst thing ever?

▲alistairSH 13 minutes ago | parent | next [-]

Because football is the most studied and has one of the highest (if not the actual highest) rates of head trauma per time played.

Rugby and ice hockey are certainly bad, but at least the impacts are generally limited to play near the ball/puck, whereas with American football, essentially every player has an impact on every play (WR blocking on rush plays, etc).

▲toast0 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Certainly, football isn't the only thing people do that leads to head injuries.

But if it is significantly worse than other sports, why not single it out as the worst thing ever?

Several sports increase the risk of CTE, but football has been more studied, I think because the incidence of obviously impared former players is higher than in other sports.

▲estearum 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> The fact that they're a repeated part of the game and not occasional incidents is very, very bad.

▲hibikir 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Due to the number of concussions per minute played. It could be worse (boxing), but it's not difficult to see how some sports are far riskier than others

▲lkjdsklf 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

CTE isn’t caused by concussions. Hence the rest of their comment.

▲dwaltrip 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Is it not worse?

▲ceejayoz 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> playing at nfl level and kid level is something very different

Correct. NFL payers are better paid, get better medical care, have better training and equipment, and their brains are more developed.

▲sanex 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Sure but the quality of gear you get in the NFL is much higher than what your typical kid gets. I regret the two years of football I played in high school.

▲ourmandave an hour ago | parent | next [-]

The average weight of the front line NFL player is over 310 lbs.

At that size ratio from kids to pro, they should be rivaling Dark Helmet from Space Balls.

▲thrwaway73637 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

did you enjoy it at the time?

▲sanex an hour ago | parent | next [-]

Not enough to play senior year

▲amanaplanacanal 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

I'm sure people enjoy heroin at the time.

▲butlike an hour ago | parent [-]

The best part about heroin is your brain can recover from it. CTE not so much.

▲chrisBob 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Yes! A child with a developing brain, and no medical staff on the sidelines is potentially in a worse situation.

▲alistairSH 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Yes, and?

It's well established that the effects of repeated head trauma are cumulative, with progressively longer healing periods, worse symptoms, etc. And that sub-concussive impacts also accumulate along with the concussive impacts.

From the article: The bulk of the head impacts that these former NFL players experienced didn’t occur at the NFL level. They occurred at the collegiate level ... and at the high school level and in many cases the youth level. And all of those cumulative hits to the head added up to result in an increased risk,” said Daneshvar.

▲kyawzazaw 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

did you even read? the bulk happened at collegiate level

also there are studies on this

McKee et al. (2023) – Neuropathologic and Clinical Findings in Young Contact Sport Athletes Exposed to Repetitive Head Impacts (JAMA Neurology) [https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamaneurology/fullarticle/2...]

Alosco et al. (2017) – Age of First Exposure to Tackle Football and Later-Life Cognitive Impairment and Neuropsychiatric Symptoms (Translational Psychiatry) [https://doi.org/10.1038/tp.2017.197]

even intl football headers have concerns

▲thrwaway73637 2 hours ago | parent [-]

[flagged]

▲ an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-]
[deleted]
▲kakacik 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

As mentioned elsewhere here the damage is cumulative and started in their youth

▲moate 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

From an injury perspective: What are they? Let's assume we're talking MS/HS football where the mass of the players is enough to really do some damage.

Provide your data Mr. Thrwaway, if that even is your real name.

▲thrwaway73637 2 hours ago | parent [-]

[flagged]

▲jamiek88 2 hours ago | parent [-]

From the article: The bulk of the head impacts that these former NFL players experienced didn’t occur at the NFL level. They occurred at the collegiate level ... and at the high school level and in many cases the youth level. And all of those cumulative hits to the head added up to result in an increased risk,” said Daneshvar.