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▲ mentalgear 3 hours ago

Back then the establishment used the CIA/FBI to prevent a multi-coalition, working class movement across ethnicity, unions, and religions that would have made the US a better democracy.

The battle of the present (ICE abuse, Social media speech suppression, ..) to win the government back by the people and for the people can still be won - but it hinges all on this November.

▲VulgarExigency 3 hours ago | parent | next [-]

> Back then the establishment used the CIA/FBI to prevent a multi-coalition, working class movement across ethnicity, unions, and religions that would have made the US a better democracy.

What makes you think they've stopped?

▲gadders 3 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Well, "they" did their best to stop Bernie running.

▲cowlevel 3 hours ago | parent | next [-]

They succeeded.

I remember reading the online news about those primaries as they happened. Bernie wins this state in a landslide. Bernie wins that state in a landslide. Suddenly he's not on the ballot in most of the remaining states. At the end he doesn't have enough votes, oh dear too bad so sad. Some sort of investigation happened, but concluded the DNC has the absolute right to run primaries any way it chooses to.

▲amenhotep 2 hours ago | parent | next [-]

> Suddenly he's not on the ballot in most of the remaining states

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Results_of_the_2016_Democratic...

Why are you just completely making things up?

▲linuxftw 12 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Remember when Hillary won all those coin tosses?

▲caconym_ an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-]

At some point during that primary season I was driving in my car listening to my local NPR station and they had a story about these two candidates. I shit you not: they were introduced as "Hillary Clinton" and "the socialist senator from Vermont".

For some reason I remember that moment as vividly as I remember pulling out in the car with my mom on the way to school and hearing that a plane had hit the WTC.

▲swed420 11 minutes ago | parent [-]

NPR has been capital-endorsed garbage for a long time now. NYT is no better.

The Sanders campaigns just made it painfully obvious to anybody paying attention.

▲buellerbueller 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

HRC was also given the power to effectively run the DNC (while a candidate in the primaries!) in exchange for some funraising. There were bunches of other shenanigans.

To me, it all seems to boil down to the notion that Bernie would credibly have "drained the swamp," which would have effectively tanked the careers of a lot of long-serving Democratic folks who were not aligned with his populist/progressive agenda. Simply by hiring people that would have aligned with his vision, this was such a threat to existing power, it had to be stopped. Yes, the Rs are worse (in my opinion), but this gives me plenty of distrust for the Ds. Institutions eventually become more about institutional survival than about their "core mission."

▲mentalgear 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Yes, that was the Clinton-controlled ('wealthy donors') DNC that excluded Bernie from a fair competition to become the Democrat's Candidate - which by all metrics and polling from the party's base and non-party members he would have won.

So, the Clinton-controlled DNC from 2016 put Trump in the White House.

The positive message is that since then the Democrats have been infused by Sanders-like independent Democrats that want to do the right thing, but we must keep on pushing to rid and guard the DNC and party administration off the corrupt billionaire influences.

▲999900000999 an hour ago | parent [-]

At a certain point you realize both parties ultimately serve the super rich. The DNC would rather have Republicans in office over electing real progressives.

If you look outside the US Bernie is actually a moderate. We're not talking about abolishing money or seizing the means of production. Just maybe, somewhere between minting a new trillionaire every year and pregnant women sleeping outside we can find a compromise.

Unlimited money for wars all over the planet, but if you lose your job and have a chronic illness you're screwed most of the time.

Sometimes your screwed even if you have a job and good health insurance. It's a magic game of musical chairs to see what's covered or not. What's out of pocket , etc.

▲mentalgear 26 minutes ago | parent [-]

Absolutely agree, Bernie is seen as politically 'normal' by most (western) countries. Only Amercians having become gradually skewed by Reagonomics (or better his puppet masters) that are so (ab)used by predatory capitalism would think of him as outer left, whereas most of the world sees in him a centrist (as would 1950s golden-era American voters).

▲999900000999 4 minutes ago | parent [-]

I don’t think theirs any possible way Social Security or other New Deal programs could be enacted today.

Although it can be argued this should be handled state by state instead. Unemployment pays about 1k per week in Washington , but only 400$ a week in Illinois.

My big fear is a right leaning federal government will eventually dismantle the social safety net entirely. If not that expect rent seeking, ie paying fees to private companies to get your social security checks

▲midev 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Can you explain why you shouldn't rely on media memories as truth?

> Suddenly he's not on the ballot in most of the remaining states

Can you list these states? This should be easy to verify.

> concluded the DNC has the absolute right to run primaries any way it chooses to

Can you cite a law that tells private parties who they must support?

▲BobaFloutist 6 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-]

By voting against him?

▲swed420 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

So did Dems

▲gadders 3 hours ago | parent [-]

I don't think the Dems are still the party of the working class.

▲amanaplanacanal 2 hours ago | parent | next [-]

There is no party of the working class. Hasn't been since Clinton in the 90s moved to the right.

▲MisterTea 2 hours ago | parent [-]

Pretty much this. Voting in this election will give me no peace of mind.

▲midev 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

[dead]

▲mentalgear 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Never said they stopped: industry 'leaders', authoritarians, will always try to keep and expand their abusive grip over others and claw as much power from the common people as possible. The methods are always the same: distraction, disinformation, abuse. The common people's only defense is transparent institutions and limiting power/wealth in general.

See also how the robber barons of the 1930s (Rockefeller, JP Morgan, etc) already tried to overthrow the government to establish a fascist military dictatorship.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Business_Plot

▲regretsresin 3 hours ago | parent [-]

The democrats participate in this export strongly too. Biden shut down a really important union strike. They are less overt about it, but go watch Malcolm X talk about foxes and wolves.

▲ToucanLoucan 3 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Really all the comments about "white moderates/liberals." The exact sort of people who forgot the Civil Rights movement, Labor Rights movement, and Women's Suffrage, and really every movement by a marginalized group to gain power from the mainstream were packed full of organized political violence.

Non-violent protests have a place. On occasion though, you need to hit the system where it hurts in order for it to take you seriously.

▲mentalgear 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

The Democratic Party too had problematic 'wealthy supporters' that influenced them away from a people's real needs. However, Biden's initiatives were probably the most 'socialistic' since FDR. And if the DSA and Bernie Sanders' aligned forces are finally able to force the Democratic Party back to their roots of FDR, then there is good chance we might still make it.

▲superdisk 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

It's the most important election of our lifetime... For the fourth time in a row!

▲swed420 3 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Anything to prop up the illusion of democracy.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uniparty

▲timacles 3 hours ago | parent [-]

Yep, Dems are just the good cop to the bad cop. And their only purpose is to placate the country into thinking we’re not 100% owned by billionaires and corporate interests.

▲samrus 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Thats what happens when you live in increasingly interesting times

▲chasd00 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

The very foundation of Democracy is at stake!! …again for like 30 years straight now.

My step dad use to quote bible verses to me trying to prove Obama was the literal antichrist. Before that it was the evil Bush and his oil cronies. Now it’s Trump, in two years it will be someone else. Same as it ever was.

▲cowlevel 3 hours ago | parent | next [-]

It is though? Like, every single election, someone runs on the platform of abolishing democracy. Every single election, it's important that person doesn't win, or there won't be a democracy any more.

By all rights there shouldn't be one already, but we're lucky the democracy abolitionists are fairly incompetent.

▲sejje 2 hours ago | parent | next [-]

So last election, Kamala Harris was the platform of abolishing democracy?

Or, alternatively, did we cease to have a democracy?

▲jeremyjh 2 hours ago | parent | next [-]

We are very substantially less democratic than we were in 2024. The admin has broken laws regarding impoundment and war powers, just to name two. The executive has no legal power to determine funding allocations, or to commit to wars long-term. Yet both have happened and are still happening.

Using the DOJ to interfere in state elections they have no jurisdiction in, and having masked men abduct people and ignore court orders regarding their disposition is just about as authoritarian as it gets.

Those are all new things that have substantially eroded - or removed all together the idea of democracy in less than two years.

▲cowlevel 2 hours ago | parent [-]

On the other hand, it's possible to argue that America is still democratic, since it voted for all the stuff that's now happening. It would be pretty undemocratic if a president tries to stay in office age losing an election, and it would become irreversibly undemocratic if a president actually stayed in office after losing an election.

▲sejje 2 hours ago | parent | next [-]

That's not gonna happen.

If one side shuts the other out of power, that's when we'll finally get the civil war many have been predicting for a long time.

Hopefully the framework to limit power can stay in place, in spite of all the calls to change it, abolish the senate, pack the court, make sure to punish/"hold accountable" red voters, etc.

▲ImPostingOnHN an hour ago | parent | prev [-]

> it's possible to argue that America is still democratic, since it voted for all the stuff that's now happening

It's possible, but not very credible, to argue that in a situation where direct democracy doesn't exist.

The closest we have to voted for these things rather than voted for these people is polls, which overwhelmingly illustrate that most people oppose those things.

We'll know more after the election, if people supported those things.

> It would be pretty undemocratic if a president tries to stay in office age losing an election

Yes, the current president tried exactly that, in a violent insurrection, and has interfered in national elections since regaining power.

▲cowlevel 30 minutes ago | parent [-]

People keep polling against the things that are happening, but in elections that actually matter they keep voting for them, so...

and it's probably not just election tampering, because polls close to elections also show support.

▲15155 11 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-]

How did she do in the primaries?

▲throwitaway222 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

I mean Karen Bass just said there's no need for an Election for the governor, it's Xavier Baccera. He's the governor already according to her. "You don't need an election on November 3. A Republican cannot win in this state."

▲BobaFloutist 3 minutes ago | parent | next [-]

Do you think she meant there shouldn't be an election, or was simply alluding to the incredibly predictable result we all know to expect?

▲cowlevel 29 minutes ago | parent | prev [-]

In Alaska the GOP has filed a lawsuit saying the election was rigged but only if they lose (since it hasn't happened yet). I wish I was making this up.

▲jackb4040 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Well it's important to you. It's evidently not important to the people you vote for, the people who fundraise off of this hostage situation, the people who have had trifectas multiple times during this era and have not even used them to permanently secure the "democracy", let alone the overwhelmingly popular policies with their base that would guarantee they win ever election but piss off their donors.

▲basilikum 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

How many of them openly attacked and rejected to democratic process itself? How many of them did not accept the result of an election?

▲10111001 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> The very foundation of Democracy is at stake!! …again for like 30 years straight now.

There's a very easy method to tell if someone making that claim is a liar: ask "what major ideological compromise are they making to save democracy?" if the answer is "none" or close to it, they're full of shit.

'Cause if fascism is really our doorstep, you'd think they'd be gunning for the broadest, most indefatigable anti-fascist coalition possible; instead of the narrowest, most pure one they think they can get away with.

▲lkbm 2 hours ago | parent [-]

I mean...I think people who oppose GMOs, permitting reform, hydroelectric, and nuclear power do care about the environment, despite actively working against it. People who oppose developers building more houses do want more affordable housing, despite actively working against it.

People, including individuals, aren't single-minded, rational, or scientifically literate.

In the case of anti-fascism, many on the left earnestly believe that a far-left candidate is the solution because their bubble tells them that their views are dominant. After all, they and many of their friends aren't excited to vote for the moderates, but would vote for someone more left.

I'll sacrifice a lot of things I care about for leadership that would shore up democracy (I'm not sure how, though fixing redistricting is a big one), but it's seen as normal and admirable to refuse to compromise.

▲Arodex 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Oh, yeah, Bush wasn't that bad, right? Just hundreds of thousands of deaths and crippled veterans, and the complete destruction of global order that opened the door to Russia invading Ukraine. "Just worth a shrug", you say while you pass by a crack addicted veteran while on you way to pay 30% more for gas and food. "It wasn't worth getting worried about."

What a level-headed, reasonable know-nothing you are, sitting above all this unreasonable jockeying.

I am not surprised though, you live in a culture where people can lecture others that the Bible told them Obama was Satan. You don't know what actual politics is anymore.

▲saila 2 hours ago | parent [-]

I’d add the so-called “Patriot Act” to the list of damages from the GW Bush era. Massive consequences that can’t be shrugged off with some both-sides nonsense.

▲Micrococonut 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

As long as people keep electing fascist billionaires to loot the country, the fight continues

▲ifwinterco 25 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Continuing to believe in democracy when you seem to know how the country (all countries) actually works in practice is surely just illogical.

You can't vote for anyone who'll abolish the FBI, CIA and the rest of the elite groups that actually run things

▲maerF0x0 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> but it hinges all on this November

A slight challenge here. November is a sizable opportunity to move towards that aim. Every day after is another opportunity to live it out in your life, community, neighborhood, finances, religion, and family...

▲kspacewalk2 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

>Back then the establishment used the CIA/FBI to prevent a multi-coalition, working class movement across ethnicity, unions, and religions that would have made the US a better democracy.

It's communism. Cold War. All there is to it. As with much other evil, this was done because the FBI feared that Big Bad Uncle Ivan will somehow gain influence over this leader and use it for leverage in the Cold War.

The same multitudes of extramarital affairs and other racy and embarrassing stuff that Dr King took part in, as a reverend, could be used by communists to blackmail him into working for them or making decisions that favour the Soviet Union. Is it far-fetched? Sure. Is it, in hindsight, paranoid and stupid? Yep. But can we say with certainty, without hindsight, that it was impossible, when you have an entire organization dedicated to rooting out hidden influence of the enemy in an existential covert global struggle?

And it wasn't all paranoia. The Soviet Union under Stalin was extremely good at infiltrating American academia, civil society and government. The Rosenbergs, Alger Hiss, Harry Dexter White, etc. The US government went from ignoring the problem and dealing with it so incompetently actual Soviet spies were in almost cabinet-level positions, to hysterically over-reacting and ruining the lives of people like Dr King "just in case".

▲cowlevel 3 hours ago | parent | next [-]

There's another country that has infiltrated the whole American government, and a third country that is often said to have infiltrated American academia and civil society, but we don't seem to worry about them. Why the distinction?

▲kspacewalk2 3 hours ago | parent | next [-]

I'm not sure what your question is. Did someone draw a distinction? If you transplanted the 1960s FBI to modern times and told them to look for influence in favour of Russia or Israel or whoever you mean but for some reason don't name, and told them to use the same tactics, they probably would try.

▲jackb4040 2 hours ago | parent [-]

The USS Liberty happened in the 1960s. It's downright silly to pretend the American state would ever have had a similar orientation towards a rival superpower vs its own unsinkable aircraft carrier.

▲kspacewalk2 an hour ago | parent [-]

You're now the second person doing this. I won't try to keep up with the conspiracies, and multiple levels of unstated implications based on the assumptions about those conspiracies being facts. Israel has never been, nor will likely ever be a superpower or anything akin to a near-peer adversary of the United States, so I'm not too sure what there is to talk about. Still waiting for anyone to propose a topic.

▲ricksunny 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

But you don’t understand it’s okay when Mossad and Shin Bet do it.

▲ 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-]
[deleted]
▲DFHippie 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

It's pretty good under Putin, too. Better, actually. They don't use the same narrative template, but they're picking tools with more power. It turns out it's really easy to manipulate narcissists and authoritarian followers.

(well, the Russian Federation, not the USSR)

▲accountrequired 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

>multi-coalition, working class movement

That is how Communists get their cultural revolution, you know.

▲cowlevel 2 hours ago | parent | next [-]

It's the excuse Communists used. It's also the same excuse Fascists used. Need I remind you: national socialist German worker's party.

There seems to be great demand for a party that actually makes life better for people, so great that you can just name your party that, win an election and do anything you want to. For some reason there's very little supply of parties that actually make life better and don't just pretend they want to.

▲ricksunny 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

>That is how Communists get tbeir cultural revokution, you know

That is how blowhards get Red-Scares and Cold Wars, you know. And exactly the abuses OP posting is decrying.

▲pessimizer 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> Back then the establishment used the CIA/FBI to prevent a multi-coalition, working class movement across ethnicity, unions, and religions that would have made the US a better democracy.

Back then the establishment used the CIA/FBI to attack black civil rights movements. They also used it to attack things that were associated with the Soviet Union, including associating black civil rights with communism and socialism, like you're doing here.

Maybe this was not about everybody and not about you?

▲regretsresin 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

It doesn't all hinge on this November. It hinges on all the moments where people do work to avoid fascism. Some of that happens at the polls. Some of that happens at home. Some of that happens online.

Feed people. Engage in mutual aid. Build communities. Prepare candidates. Grow networks. Then vote. Voting is the last and easiest part.