| ▲ | solfox 4 hours ago |
| This whole "but government is inefficient" argument has never convinced me. Our local electric provider has as bad or worse bureaucracy and ever-increasing rates. Bureaucracy is just a symptom of aging human systems, and it can be fixed. Monopolies that serve the public good should never been profit driven, full stop. |
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| ▲ | lukewrites 3 hours ago | parent | next [-] |
| One of the great acts of human creativity has been to convince the masses that if you install a bunch of middlemen who are looking to profit, goods and services will be cheaper and better. I think part of the success of this message is that it’s so obviously silly that people feel silly questioning it. |
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| ▲ | whimsicalism 3 hours ago | parent [-] | | for liquid markets, the evidence for this is quite good. i think it is beyond clear that some of you all have never worked in federal government to have such a rosy outlook |
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| ▲ | agumonkey 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| It might come from other factors than aging. The incentives are different and the way the structure evolve too. In public institutions, political tempo affects operations.. every new head of minister will reorganize things for a short while and then issues start showing up, until the next election. It makes people unable to care for efficiency after a while because they know how often friction will grow again. Maybe small difference in finances too, very often public sector struggles with basic tools. I "feel" that private sector is a little more prone to renew that part (to satisfy the efficiency gods). That said it often backfires because they will also replace perfectly good tools or software to get the latest shiny. Then there's mass.. but large private corps will have the same issues. |
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| ▲ | dmix 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Bureaucracy is rarely ever fixed in those old institutions, even with changing leadership. The only common examples you see are usually a result of technical innovations that they fight against and later adopt 10+ years late, not from organizational reform. |
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| ▲ | nodrog3000 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| The government is a monopoly... |
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| ▲ | geraneum 3 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | And as unconvincing as "government is inefficient" in this case | |
| ▲ | financetechbro 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Yes but the governments sole purpose isn’t to return infinite profits to shareholders…………. | | |
| ▲ | nodrog3000 3 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | So what is the government's sole purpose? Also this is not the sole purpose of companies.. SpaceX is a trillion dollar company with 0 profit. The free market has created everything you use the more we turn the keys over to government's the worse things get. Companies can't get infinite profits because they will be undercut by other companies COMPETING. The government can get infinite power and control though.. they have no competition. | | |
| ▲ | zerot_ 3 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Why are you pretending that utilities exist in a "free market" in any way? | | |
| ▲ | nodrog3000 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | I am arguing they should. We cannot afford to let the government control energy going forward. | | |
| ▲ | stouset 4 minutes ago | parent [-] | | I’m pretty sure many of us are actively unable to afford the private energy we’re having to pay for today. |
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| ▲ | boothby 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | > SpaceX is a trillion dollar company with 0 profit. And it got there in part through the evisceration of NASA. > The free market has created everything you use the more we turn the keys over to government's the worse things get. Government funds research that has brought us such advances as moon landings, computers, and the internet. What an odd example you chose in SpaceX | | |
| ▲ | nodrog3000 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | The SpaceX example was to demonstrate how profits aren't the sole goal of companies. Yes after the monopoly of NASA ended we now have several real space companies doing real advancement. I personally have never used one of these "government computers" have you? | | |
| ▲ | stouset 2 minutes ago | parent [-] | | Maximizing value to shareholders is a literal legal obligation of public companies. A company being unprofitable today does not mean they are not seeking to be highly profitable tomorrow. |
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| ▲ | vrganj 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | > The free market has created everything you use the more we turn the keys over to government's the worse things get. This might be your personal ideological creed, but it is not a self-evident axiom you can just assert with zero backing. > Companies can't get infinite profits because they will be undercut by other companies COMPETING Then why haven't they? > The government can get infinite power and control though.. they have no competition. Are you aware other countries with their own governments exist? | | |
| ▲ | nodrog3000 2 hours ago | parent [-] | | > This might be your personal ideological creed, but it is not a self-evident axiom you can just assert with zero backing. Give an example of something the government does better than the market? > Then why haven't they?
Give an example where they haven't? > Are you aware other countries with their own governments exist?
And they all lose the most free market America? Why would we do more like them? | | |
| ▲ | AngryData 2 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | > Give an example of something the government does better than the market? Roads, electricity, water, heathcare, pensions, public transportation, and social services. | |
| ▲ | vrganj 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | > Give an example of something the government does better than the market? This thread's topic, for starters? > Give an example where they haven't? This thread's topic, for starters? > And they all lose the most free market America? Why would we do more like them? I'm not quite sure what you're saying here, could you rephrase? |
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| ▲ | duped 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | > So what is the government's sole purpose? To establish justice, ensure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty. > Also this is not the sole purpose of companies. Friedman disagrees. > The free market has created everything you use the more we turn the keys over to government's the worse things get. Which is why we have never needed government regulation of things like food, air, water, shelter, work safety, accessibility, or anything else. The free market provides. > The government can get infinite power and control though Which is why in a free society the government is answerable to the people. | | |
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| ▲ | maerF0x0 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Yes. Instead they return infinite power to elites and politicians. | | |
| ▲ | hilariously 3 hours ago | parent [-] | | Your argument still applies to capitalists except we don't even get the fig leaf of a vote, so what's your point? | | |
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| ▲ | asanineassasin 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Its any job where you feel you have the customer by the balls, held hostage, that thus disolves into a one sided free for all. |
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| ▲ | eightysixfour 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| > This whole "but government is inefficient" argument has never convinced me. I hate this argument for a different reason. There are entire classes of problems where monetary efficiency is not the primary metrics we should optimize for, areas where things like resilience, stability, and fairness all need to come before the purely economic considerations. Can you turn some of that into a dollar measurement? Sometimes, but not as easily as a P&L, and the P&L wins. |
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| ▲ | miltonlost 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-] |
| "government is inefficient" is a canard spit out by captalists as part of their propaganda program. Same with "you're better off without a union." Profit going to capitalist owners who don't do any work is an inefficient allocation, IMO, more than an "inefficient" government. |
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| ▲ | ihumanable 4 hours ago | parent [-] | | Capitalist using money to buy capital and then sell services, brilliant. Government using money to buy capital and then provide services, deadly socialism. It's always just been about capitalists wanting less competition. That's why they don't want the market to decide and fight for laws to literally outlaw stuff like municipal broadband. If they are so much more efficient, they should be able to offer an equal or better service for the same or better price. | | |
| ▲ | nxm 4 hours ago | parent [-] | | Government using people's taxes to waste money with 0 accountability | | |
| ▲ | kristopolous 4 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | They have so much accountability. Everything is in public for inspection, they're subject to elections happening whether they like it or not, they have to follow strict laws and can be sued or even imprisoned, there's oversights and review boards. Depending on the position there's even television cameras broadcasting their work live. You can just walk in and sit down on them. In the federal government everything you do becomes public property and enters the public domain immediately upon creation. There's way more accountability... In practice what the "small government" ideology actually does is get rid of these accountability mechanisms and put scammers and corrupt people in charge instead or relabels corruption as the policy through public-private partnerships. | |
| ▲ | triceratops 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | In many places I can see every single government employee's salary, down to the janitor. Which public company has the same level of transparency? | |
| ▲ | ihumanable 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Yes, a government has never wasted tax money by giving a contract to a private company before. Those companies that win big pork filled contracts would never have any incentive to get the company to waste tax dollars. Adding the profit motive in here definitely helps prevent waste | |
| ▲ | Larrikin 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | It's a lot easier for me to vote for someone with better policies than it is for me to get the CEO of a utility company fired. | |
| ▲ | vrganj 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | What are you talking about? I can vote out my government leaders in a democracy. I can't vote out Mark Zuckerberg or Elon Musk that run their organizations autocratically. |
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