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▲ mangodrunk 3 hours ago

You and others are not able to say anything of substance other than repeating the claim that he acts like a king without saying what actions are making you think that. Do you think Obama was a king, given his control and adverserial relationship with the press?

It's also incredibly ironic that the claim that democracy was on the line during the last presidential election given that the democrats first fielded a candidate whose health concerns were downplayed and then a candidate who was not elected in the primary.

▲JayNitram 3 hours ago | parent | next [-]

I read the replies and see a large number of them listing quite specifically, perhaps you need to reread?

▲mangodrunk 2 hours ago | parent [-]

I think because you agree with the sentiment, you think that it has been done, and that vague claims are counted as substantial.

▲JayNitram 2 hours ago | parent [-]

Right, so what I am seeing is that someone goes, "Hey, holding up the money that congress appropriated is overstepping what has historically been the legislative branches power and usurping it to be an excecutive branch power" and then I look at the specific instances they mention and come to the same or a similar conclusion, I am performing confirmation bias, but you reading their example and equating it to "they don't like Trump" is pure analysis.

▲mangodrunk 2 hours ago | parent [-]

From the other perspective, they think they have the legal right to do so and that they are wanting to limit wasteful spending. This is still very much inline with working within the constitution. How do you think this is king-like behavior?

▲JayNitram an hour ago | parent [-]

For that specific case? Pretty simple, many of his actions that held up congressionally appropriated funds were found unconstitutional in a number of federal courts. Add to that there being a seeming intention to 'claim' that power and authority by this administration gives a few flags. I guess I need to know what you definition of a President overstepping his powers would be?

▲boothby 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Obama certainly did his part in strengthening executive power and your attention to the role that Democrats played in this is well deserved. This whataboutism, however, does not absolve the Republicans who are pushing the Unitary Executive theory -- of which a monarchy is the ultimate expression. Therefore, the name "no kings" -- a catchy title that captures the undeniable thrust of the founding of the USA and warns of the end of the slope our country is accelerating down.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unitary_executive_theory

▲mangodrunk 2 hours ago | parent [-]

I don't necessarily see this about whataboutism if the people making claims support another person or party that has the same faults that they are claiming.

That is a rather misguided and hyperbolic view of unitary executive theory. The president would still be elected and bounded by the constitution.

▲ModernMech 2 hours ago | parent [-]

That’s a rather naive view of unitary executive theory if you look at how it’s actually been used. The people pushing it say they are not bound by the Constitution, because part of the theory, which was advanced during a Trump’s first impeachment trial, is that if the President does it, it can’t be a crime. He was acquitted under that theory. Moreover, he argued the proper venue for accountability is the courts. But in court, he argued the proper venue for accountability was impeachment. SCOTUS essentially agreed with that.

So when you say “bound by the Constitution” what you really mean is bound by being able to sway 10 senators from his own party. So… not exactly bound is it, considering he’s already shown he’s willing to arrest his political opponents (and under unitary executive theory it’s within his power to do so)

▲mangodrunk an hour ago | parent [-]

Do you see benefit in giving more power to those elected by the people than the people who aren't elected? This actually seems like the more democratic approach. Though I think to handle too much sudden change, some limits should be imposed, but not sure what that limit should be.

They of course are bounded by the constitution and haven't claimed otherwise. The court decides if something is unconstitutional and I do think impeachment is certainly a venue for accountability as well

▲boothby 30 minutes ago | parent [-]

> Do you see benefit in giving more power to those elected by the people than the people who aren't elected?

Yes. In a representative democracy, a plurality of views are represented in government, enabling checks and balances to prevent arbitrary and corrupt governance. When the president is allowed to eviscerate independent bodies and replace their leadership and fill their ranks with loyalists, you get further and further from an expression of the will of the people and closer and closer to totalitarianism.

Russia is a nominal democracy. Putin is the elected leader. He enjoys unchecked power, of which Trump is nakedly envious. Do you think that Russia’s approach is "more democratic" than that of the US because of the strength of its executive?

▲diputsmonro 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

The Obama comparison is a great one to bring up to destroy your point. Obama made frustrated comments, but he never revoked their press badges or used government powers to stifle their ability to report on him, which Trump has done. There is a huge gulf between simply making a comment and actually using your official powers to force a change. Trump crossed that gulf, Obama did not.

▲MC995 14 minutes ago | parent [-]

> he never revoked their press badges or used government powers to stifle their ability to report on him

He absolutely did. The selective memory of those who are so vehemently against Trump just makes that side seem ridiculous and disingenuous.

The Obama administration has used the Espionage Act to go after whistleblowers who leaked to journalists, more than all previous administrations combined.

The Obama Justice Department seized the records of phone lines that Associated Press employees used. AP confirmed that the records were from personal home and cell phones of reporters and editors, as well as phones that AP used in the press quarters of the House of Representatives. ABC, CNN, the New York Times, the Washington Post, and the Committee for Freedom of the Press, submitted a letter of protest to Attorney General Eric Holder about the raid.

▲unethical_ban 3 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I can't take it seriously when someone compares Obama's comments about, say, Fox, vs. how Trump behaves.

The scope and the shamelessness of his behavior is unprecedented. Nothing any other president has done compares to what Trump has done, with the negative impact to the country, with such explicit opposition to American interests.

Off the top of my head: Illegal tariffs, sicking ICE on society with brutality, trying to overturn elections, constantly lying about election security to sow doubt in our democracy, declaring that any election he or the GOP loses is illegitimate, declaring that anyone who criticizes him is an enemy of the state, enriching himself and his friends with bribes and insider deals 10x what anyone could possibly claim any other politician in the US has done, selling pardons and stopping DOJ investigations for money, destroying the independent agencies that serve the country, threatening to invade allied territories, mocking our allies and reliable trading/military partners, betraying Ukraine for the benefit of his friends and Russia.

I cannot think of a way in which a determined deep Russian asset would behave differently than how Trump operates. If he isn't one, he's putting on a perfect impression.

▲mangodrunk 2 hours ago | parent [-]

[flagged]

▲thunderfork 2 hours ago | parent | next [-]

I hope you don't think this is a strong response

▲verdverm 2 hours ago | parent [-]

perhaps they are too "mangodrunk"

as the comment thread gets deeper, they show more of their cards (poor media choices)

▲unethical_ban an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I was not always pleased with Obama's behavior, particularly around drone strikes, and I am always skeptical of going after the press, which he did far less than Trump has. I reject that "both sides" have operated on the same scope of malice.

Now,

You hand-wave the methods of ICE by speaking of the desire for immigration enforcement in general. I think uncontrolled, undocumented immigration is a problem, but not the problem, and I don't think sweeping up mostly-law-abiding undocumented residents and placing them into concentration camps, shipping them to foreign prisons for life, or killing them is the proper response. ICE recruits are not well trained, and the leadership was explicitly aggressive and hateful.

You incorrectly call the verified behaviors between the Trump campaign and Russia in 2016 a hoax. Mueller said action should be taken but that it should be handled by Congress, which did nothing. Counterpoints: https://wannabewonk.com/summary-of-hypocrisies/

You wave off the 2020 Congressional attacks and absolve him of any involvement, and ignore his calls to the GA secretary of state asking for more votes, wave off that everyone one his staff told him the election was legitimate while he continued to call it a fraud, wave off that all his claims about fraud have been rejected in court cases around the country.

You conflate my criticism of Trump's attacks on the voting system with a lack of interest in secure, reliable voting systems in general.

You may not be aware the recent pivots to Russia the invader and away from Ukraine the invaded. I'm interested in the extenuating circumstances that would justify taking the side of the authoritarian invader, supplying them with money and reneging on the spirit of bipartisan legislation signed last month to put more sanctions on Russia, while calling for the ouster of the leader of the invaded country.

▲ModernMech 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

You also have the option to learn more about these things, there was a whole violent insurrection you missed. Are you American? It was a big deal here…

▲verdverm 3 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Democracy is in crisis, both parties are to blame.

Try out some Michael Sandel content, see if it speaks to you more than your preferred wing of the Oligarchs.