Remix.run Logo
▲ SimCity, but with Permits(permit.petercai.com)
89 points by pcai an hour ago | 44 comments
▲bruce511 31 minutes ago | parent | next [-]

I suppose this is the result of a hundred years of democracy, aka having to keep everyone happy all the time.

Municipal rules, zoning, community feedback and so on all operate in the space of keeping people happy. No-one wants noise, so we have noise restrictions. Oops, construction is constrained. We all want no traffic, and lots of parking, so low density please, but that creates housing shortages and limits the usefulness of public transport.

So a rule is added here, a process there, and everyone is fighting everything all the time. Can't build this because traffic. Can't build that because impact on the neighborhood.

But yay, democracy? We can do anything as long as no one is subjectivly harmed.

And when nothing at all gets done, we blame politicians for being lazy, incompetent, or corrupt.

▲paimapi a minute ago | parent | next [-]

Right, it was so much better during the Robert Moses era where urban planners bulldozed over predominantly Black communities and built interstate highways while locating all of the toxic pollution producing manufacturing to the remaining lower-income minority neighborhoods, obliterating walkability and pedestrian safety everywhere.

I think if you follow actual development stories, you'll see a lot of this continuing to hold true. Seeing NPUs as being actually effective at curbing development is very naive. NPUs rarely push back against development, and it takes a lot of organizing to even get something up for a vote at City Council. And even then, most councilmembers are all taking campaign funds from private-equity backed developers.

A lot has been written about this. In my city, we call it the Atlanta Way (derogatroy). There's a recent book covering this that's a great read: https://www.ucpress.edu/books/red-hot-city/paper

▲kspacewalk2 20 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-]

There are multiple ways of imposing this structure, laws, and trade-offs between various stakeholders. For example, Japan has a national top-down system where municipalities have little control over development, and therefore by necessity the system is mostly rules-based - if you meet the hopefully well-crafted requirements, you build. Whereas in North America, housing is a top-down and centrally planned economy at the municipal level. In Britain and a lot of North America, decisions are 'discretionary' and subject to reviews and debates and NIMBY tantrums (otherwise known as democratic control by taxpayers). Various bandaids are applied over the North American system to attempt to stop it from becoming a Kafkaesque bureaucratic mess where nothing gets built, and at times those efforts even partially succeed, even if the whole thing has an air of reforming the Gosplan.

▲solidsnack9000 9 minutes ago | parent [-]

Maybe we would be better off in the US if zoning, permitting, &c was hoisted up to the state level.

▲xnx 21 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-]

It evolves. Laws, rules, regulations accrue but are very rarely re-evaluated to see if they serve their original purpose. It's easier for most lawmakers to leave things alone. Eventually, the state declines or fails under the weight of a century of well-intentioned (maybe) laws that have outlived their usefullness.

Knowing human nature, the best plan for a state that wants to survive is to set a 20 year expiration on laws. Broadly accepted laws would easily be renewed, but obsolete ones would be allowed to die.

▲sdeframond 10 minutes ago | parent [-]

> to set a 20 year expiration on laws

Wait, do we need to pass a law for this?

▲SimianSci 13 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Everyone wants to be the one with the power to remake the world according to their own designs. Everyone also doesn't want to be the one being remade according to the designs of others.

▲sheikhnbake 25 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-]

In the US we have insane bureaucracy as well as lazy, incompetent, and corrupt politicians. Never let them say you can't have both

▲kspacewalk2 16 minutes ago | parent [-]

And a centrally planned housing economy in the self-described capitalist free-market paradise.

▲JumpCrisscross 3 minutes ago | parent [-]

> the self-described capitalist free-market paradise

Americans have not even identified as this for at least a generation.

▲weitendorf 17 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-]

This is a particularly Western democratic trend. Japan and Singapore both have their own models for democracy (ish, functionally both are one-party states and it's dubious how democratic their electoral processes or fair their justice systems truly are by Western standards). Each builds things differently, and gets it done.

▲blobbers 7 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Or when things get done it is because of corruption? And the constraints are put in place to protect $, aka not democracy but actually plutocracy.

We don't live in a democratic country. We live in a plutocracy. We explicitly allow money to influence our democratic process.

▲wat10000 8 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-]

It's really weird that in "the last of the free" it's considered completely normal for the government to tell you that you can't build a shed bigger than a certain size.

▲cyberax 26 minutes ago | parent | prev [-]

> We all want no traffic, and lots of parking, so low density please, but that creates housing shortages and limits the usefulness of public transport.

Sigh. Democracy is going to hang itself with the bike lanes and public transit, isn't it?

Density increases and ubiquitous transit result in HIGHER levels of housing shortages. Just ask France.

▲BugsJustFindMe 20 minutes ago | parent | next [-]

I'm pretty sure you just said "If you make a place nicer to live, then more people will want to live there, so we should stop making places nicer to live."

Anyway, nobody who has ever been to a major French city believes that they've tried to increase core density. They famously have building height restrictions all over the place. Pretty much the entire city of Paris caps out at 7 stories.

▲clickety_clack 13 minutes ago | parent [-]

Supply and demand. If you don’t want to increase supply, then you can reduce prices by turning the city into the kind of place that nobody wants to live in.

▲BugsJustFindMe 9 minutes ago | parent [-]

AKA the gunshots theory of rent control. https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/firing-gunshots-to-keep-rent-...

▲webdood90 23 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> Density increases and ubiquitous transit result in HIGHER levels of housing shortages.

Wow, that's a new one

▲scottious 10 minutes ago | parent | prev [-]

that seems like complete BS claim. What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence

increased density and transit increases demand for that area. high demand != shortage.

What are you suggesting exactly? low density and car-dependency is the solution to our housing problems?

▲zabriel_goss 22 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-]

The original EPCOT as imagined by Walt Disney was a master-planned city, with all the pleasant amenities and cleverest design you could imagine in the 1960's: Walkable areas, clean public transit, no traffic congestion, homes furnished with the latest in technology and appliances. It was his greatest ambition at the end of his life to make it a reality.

But it didn't happen. Namely, because of how much central control would be given to one man and/or his company to pull it off. The plan in its early iterations essentially meant that if you lived in EPCOT, you forfeited certain freedoms, such as what goes in your home, where you worked, and so on.

This game gave me a good chuckle as a Sim City fan. I'm guilty of complaining about politicians of all levels. But I don't envy their position of having to cut through the vines of competing motives and regulations. And at the same time, as a citizen, I'm not sure I would opt for the Utopian alternative.

▲crooked-v 3 minutes ago | parent [-]

I think the bigger reason the original "EPCOT as a city" didn't happen is that once Walt passed, everyone else in the company looked at the plan and knew it would be a bottomless money pit from day 1.

▲blobbers 12 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I haven't tried the game, but this is slightly hilarious and awesome.

I've often wondered about this kind of thing. When I go to an airport, it seems strange to me that each one is different with some of them having elaborate train systems, or multiple runways.

The engineer in me says "surely there is an optimal solution, so why are they all so different?". Is there a simulator?

Sim City was a fantastic simulation from the stand point of a game, but I'm curious; if you build a city simulator and let it grow organically (game of life style) can you put in sufficient regulation/parameters that get you to where we are today?

And if so, is there a simulation that shows us a way to get us to a better tomorrow?

▲nkrisc 9 minutes ago | parent [-]

> The engineer in me says "surely there is an optimal solution, so why are they all so different?". Is there a simulator?

Optimistically, because each one has a different optimal solution given all the unique constraints for each airport project.

Also, airports aren't just built and then done. Often the cities around them will grow and the airports will need to expand and adapt to new constraints, sometimes many decades after they were first built.

▲BatmansMom 24 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-]

A little too much going on all at once in the beginning. For a complex game like this I think you have to start small and slowly introduce functionality. Why are so many buttons available to me from minute 1? I'm not using them.

▲proggy 14 minutes ago | parent [-]

I think the overwhelm is kind of the point. If you want a well-balanced video game, where everything is optimized to help you learn the ropes and to get you into a flow state, the classic versions of SimCity provide exactly that. But this game's implementation of a full-fledged city builder is quickly drowned out by the fact that it's shoving resident petitions and requests for variances in your face every 20 seconds. It's an attempt to put the player into the shoes of an actual city planner, mayor, or city councilor that is drowning in interruptions and paperwork.

▲Nevermark 28 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-]

I would actually love a Sim City designed for realistic economic experimentation. A population of 1000’s of professions all acting self-interestedly with their various characteristics, motives, social and economic arrangements.

With a proper SimCity interface and the full complement of fun natural disasters of course!

▲bombcar 17 minutes ago | parent | next [-]

SimDwarfCity, basically.

I've heard the soviet one is closer to what you're looking for - https://www.sovietrepublic.net

▲2OEH8eoCRo0 23 minutes ago | parent | prev [-]

Dwarf City

Songs of Syx is closer but still too micro

▲zamadatix 25 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Screen turns largely black after a short bit of loading the city with these errors:

  .WebGL-0x15bc15784800] GL_INVALID_OPERATION: glRenderbufferStorageMultisample: Texture total allocation size is too large.
  play/:1 [.WebGL-0x15bc15784800] GL_INVALID_FRAMEBUFFER_OPERATION: glClear: Framebuffer is incomplete: Attachment has zero size.
  play/:1 [.WebGL-0x15bc15784800] GL_INVALID_FRAMEBUFFER_OPERATION: glDrawArraysInstanced: Framebuffer is incomplete: Attachment has zero size.
  228[.WebGL-0x15bc15784800] GL_INVALID_FRAMEBUFFER_OPERATION: glDrawElementsInstanced: Framebuffer is incomplete: Attachment has zero size.
  11[.WebGL-0x15bc15784800] GL_INVALID_FRAMEBUFFER_OPERATION: glDrawElements: Framebuffer is incomplete: Attachment has zero size.
  10[.WebGL-0x15bc15784800] GL_INVALID_FRAMEBUFFER_OPERATION: glDrawArrays: Framebuffer is incomplete: Attachment has zero size.
  play/:1 [.WebGL-0x15bc15784800] GL_INVALID_FRAMEBUFFER_OPERATION: glDrawArraysInstanced: Framebuffer is incomplete: Attachment has zero size.
  play/:1 [.WebGL-0x15bc15784800] GL_INVALID_FRAMEBUFFER_OPERATION: glBlitFramebuffer: Framebuffer is incomplete: Attachment has zero size.
  play/:1 [.WebGL-0x15bc15784800] GL_INVALID_FRAMEBUFFER_OPERATION: glClear: Framebuffer is incomplete: Attachment has zero size.
  play/:1 [.WebGL-0x15bc15784800] GL_INVALID_FRAMEBUFFER_OPERATION: glDrawArraysInstanced: Framebuffer is incomplete: Attachment has zero size.
  play/:1 WebGL: too many errors, no more errors will be reported to the console for this context.
▲solyin 26 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Couldn't get past the new city screen where I'm choosing "Blank Slate" or the other one. I assume theres a button to press odd I scroll down, but scrolling is locked. Fun idea tho. There's a Factorio Mod where the biters attack you with paperwork instead of trying to kill you directly that this makes me think of.

▲doublerabbit 3 minutes ago | parent [-]

Same issue, can't scroll nor locate a button to play.

▲Aboutplants 9 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Idea, digitize a town/city and apply all current codes, permits restrictions etc, and then run simulations based on permitting changes

▲sdellis 27 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-]

This is brilliant, but I can't imagine anyone wanting to spend time playing it as a game. No one in my town wants to run for mayor since it is a thankless and impossible job that pays a fraction of the cost of living here. There is no fun or joy or escapism in being hated by everyone and not being able to please anyone.

▲darksim905 23 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Please god stop making the x to close windows on the middle or the left. Majority of people who using computers are using Linux or Windows where it's on the upper right and it's a muscle memory. You aren't being clever or helping. I get that in some cases you may want people to read the information you have and pause a bit more, but it just irritates me and does not make me want to engage with whatever it is if I have to waste so much more time closing every window as a result. It literally wastes an exponential amount of time.

If this was an installable, moddable game, this would be cool. Further, I'm not sure why they could not add this as an existing module or feature within SimCity 3000 itself. It's a nice little wanna be clone. But playing a browser game just doesn't feel like a game.

▲rootlocus 8 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-]

How do I turn off the music?

▲richardfey 23 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Was it inspired by this?

https://housing.over.pizza/

▲bob1029 28 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MGpFEv1-mAo

▲JamesCoyne 28 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Am i missing something? How do you add power poles?

▲ramesh31 13 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Guys please just add a line to your Claude.md "never use bordered cards" to avoid the vibe look

▲ajkjk 10 minutes ago | parent [-]

seriously

▲pinevale 12 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-]

We had another person vibecode a very similar thing few weeks back: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=50036864

Both are similarly unplayable, but I guess it's the thought that counts.

▲jstummbillig 27 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-]

"free, because you are loved"

And because LLMs are making love cheaper.

▲Angus_Sugna 26 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Brilliant idea. Welcome to the real world and your annoying neighbours.

▲dwroberts 23 minutes ago | parent | prev [-]

> It writes my code, obviously. Almost all my personal projects are either 100% hand written or 100% vibe coded; almost nothing in between. The vibe coded projects are significantly more ambitious and feature rich.

Guessing it’s the latter. Pass.