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| ▲ | asdff 4 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | The thing with those jobs where its like 1 guy operating the skid steer and six guys watching with arms folded, is those other six guys are just waiting their turn to do something specialized on the job. The skid steer work is the limiting factor, and that idle labor is worth paying to have on call on site essentially for when the specific needed task is done. To an extent for sure, but that is the idea of more specialized jobs. There isn't always enough work in front of you to have a specialist work 100% 24/7 like some CPU, but you want them around for when there is work for them to do. | | |
| ▲ | whatisthiseven 4 hours ago | parent [-] | | This is entirely caused by construction companies that take too many jobs and don't allocate sufficient equipment. They want to spread themselves and their equipment thin to have as many concurrent jobs as possible. | | |
| ▲ | asdff 3 hours ago | parent [-] | | I definitely see that too especially in jobs for homeowners where people might not know better to add time based penalties into contract. But you also see this in city work from city employees using city equipment where there is none of this contractor gamesmanship going on, only an ever increasing backlog of work from aging infrastructure and a municipal government disinterested in facing the music and paying for the associated increases in labor demand. Even with all the availability of equipment and labor on hand, sometimes you must wait for the excavator to do its job first before you can begin. You cannot weld a pipe together when there is still earth to clear and the pipe to be welded is sitting on the truck. You cannot parallelize all work, some is inherently serial. |
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| ▲ | mikert89 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | no i think there are alot of people inside companies that are essentially playing telephone. they are communicating, writing documents and emails, "working". but really they actually produce nothing | | |
| ▲ | asdff 4 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | That's pretty much sales. If the market were efficient and easy to navigate as a buyer there wouldn't be a need for salespeople, just like how I can buy my own cereal without one. Imagine if you went to buy cereal and the sign said "call for quote." Imagine that extended to every single item you can possibly purchase. The world would stop from the inefficiency. And yet we tolerate it especially in business 2 business setting because hey its not our money we are spending, and smooth talking works really well on our monkey brains. | | |
| ▲ | jimbokun an hour ago | parent [-] | | > just like how I can buy my own cereal without one. Cereal companies spend lots and lots of money on advertising. |
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| ▲ | spamizbad 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Everyone says this and then when the company experiences a round of layoffs everyone’s job gets harder, service gets worse and delivery slows down | | |
| ▲ | nwiswell 4 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | That's not incompatible with many people being unproductive. If you blanket terminate, some of them will have been contributing | |
| ▲ | jmoggr 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | both things can be true: many people play unnecessary telephone + removing those people disrupts the organization Both are probably true to some extent, and would vary a lot between different orgs. | | |
| ▲ | keybrd-intrrpt 3 hours ago | parent [-] | | > removing those people disrupts the organization Or worse, you removed the workers and left the 'telephone' people. In my anecdotal experience, MOST companies don't take any time to understand what they are cutting. They kill "Project X" so the easy answer is that everyone involved with Project X must go. Regardless if they were useful or could be useful elsewhere. Or they cut by salary, employment length, etc. |
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| ▲ | shimman 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Yeah, the idea that there is a rampant amount of slack in the modern US corporation is just odd. Go speak to workers and ask them if they feel that they have slack. Slack hasn't been a thing for like 40 years, in fact it's mostly the opposite I'd argue where there is such little slack that employers often steal wages from their workers to gain even more profits. |
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| ▲ | 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | [deleted] |
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| ▲ | devin 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | It's also a terribly foolish idea to try and drive endless efficiency out of scenarios like this. People have tried this with bureaucracies many times, and then one day a disaster happens or they have a huge project with a deadline or whatever, and the flexibility/inefficiency of the organization has been driven out to the point that previously achievable goals become impossible. Slack in systems is a _good_ thing. | |
| ▲ | mjburgess 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | I guess we can evaluate this claim by looking at profit margins. In industries with thin margins (eg., retail often has 1-2%) then there is significant competitive pressure. There we would not see "spare labour" because it would be competed-away. In industries with large margins, this indicates weak competitive pressure, ie., a weak incentive signal to "compete away" this ineffective labour. I imagine that, upon this analysis, we'd find it holds up. ie., the observation that there are lots of people doing very little productive work correlates well with weak competitive pressures and hence high margins. That also explains why, institutionally, there's no internal pressure either. If margins are good, no one rocks the boat. | | |
| ▲ | Waterluvian 4 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | Chesterson's Fence at a corporate level. | | | |
| ▲ | danaris 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | > There we would not see "spare labour" because it would be competed-away. This only works (reliably) in an idealized free market. That is to say, in the classroom. In the real world, there are a myriad of reasons in any given situation why a company might have a low profit margin, but still have loads of inefficiencies and other imperfections that haven't been, and won't be, "competed away". |
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| ▲ | qlte 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Yep, the "bullshit jobs" narrative sounds like an elegant description of corporate reality at the macro level, but always seems to fall apart whenever I've seen specific examples given which do in fact serve a useful purpose when interrogated. (Whether a role's cost/value tradeoff is actually worth it for a company is a different question than the idealized model of a "bullshit job" doing nothing useful) | | |
| ▲ | burnto 4 hours ago | parent | next [-] | | My latest armchair theory is that bullshit jobs might be like “junk” DNA, which researchers learned isn’t actually junk and influences various cellular and genetic behavior, just not through direct protein instruction. Or as engineers know: sometimes legacy code doesn’t initially appear to do anything, but then messing with it has unexpected effects. | | |
| ▲ | keybrd-intrrpt 3 hours ago | parent [-] | | For sure. Especially as organizations grow in size. A small startup usually has little-to-no "junk" or "fat" to trim. But as orgs grow, and since we have imperfect knowledge and communication systems, more an more "junk" or "connectivity" roles emerge. Microsoft: 223,000 employees Alphabet / Google: 198,933 Apple: 150,000 Oracle: 141,000 Meta / Facebook: 75,472 I tried to stay way from companies with retail or warehouse workers like Amazon and Walmart (though Apple likely has a lot of retail). I don't see HOW companies get to that size without some "junk DNA" that keeps it operating. Maybe in the next few years we'll have AI-powered knowledge bases and communication lanes that smooths things out, but - how do we 'quantify' what "Steve, the guy who has been there for 22 years and works as the company phonebook and knows who to refer you for the thing you need" |
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| ▲ | mattbrewsbytes 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | I think its easier to state "bullshit jobs" but the reality is every single job has "bullshit tasks" and usually these are the easiest things to do. TPS reports and the like. BS Tasks are ripe for AI to do the drudgery but I don't think there are a lot of actual full time jobs where the entire job is BS. These can't exist en masse for very long in capitalist companies. There's always Dunbar's number - the larger an organization gets beyond the capacity of people to socially know one another, the greater the "what do they even do?" types of attitudes form about other distant parts of an organization. | |
| ▲ | win311fwg an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | > I've seen specific examples given which do in fact serve a useful purpose when interrogated. Interrogated to what extent? 'Bullshit jobs' was originally coined to mean jobs that do serve a useful purpose within the environment they exist in, but where zooming out reveals that the environment has no good reason to exist in the first place. | |
| ▲ | watwut 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | The original study defined "bullshit job" as something the worker described as "not societally useful". Well, my job is not societally useful, but is not bullshit job. My company is earning money on my work and customers use my software to earn more money. But, that is it, I am not a doctor, I am not a teacher, I am not making the world better. It is a business, not unethical one, but also not world saving. Per original definition, it is a bullshit job. | | |
| ▲ | asadotzler 3 hours ago | parent [-] | | Products and services that work and that people want and need are societally useful. You've moved the goal posts from "useful" to "world saving" and used that to discount the original description. That's seems odd to me. |
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| ▲ | shimman 4 hours ago | parent | prev [-] | | Bullshit jobs don't mean that they are full of dead time, it means jobs that don't really matter. Like if SalesForce disappeared tomorrow the world would be fine, but if all your garbage collectors disappeared you'd likely descend into chaos and start several public health crises quite quickly. |
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