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▲ Grombobulous 15 hours ago

I really don’t understand the criticism of Apple’s software.

I think we need to keep in mind a couple of things:

1. It’s software designed for the masses. It’s not intended to be a power user’s playground.

2. There’s no such thing as perfect software. If you really look hard for alternatives to the Music or Photos app (to use your examples), it’s actually extremely difficult to find anything that is without compromise, bugs, or other downsides.

As someone who has moved off of many of Apple’s apps, like my move from iCloud Photos to Ente, I’m really still accepting a decent amount of compromises. It’s better in some ways, worse in others.

And then there’s some other apps where I just can’t find a good alternative. I’d love something like Apple Notes but is cross-platform with a Linux app specifically. There’s just basically nothing like that out there, certainly not at a good price, and most of them end up over-complicated or with a strange UI.[1]

And when we step back and look at how many apps Apple makes it’s mind-boggling, and really, most of them are at least a mild “good.”

[1] Closest I’ve found are Craft and Zoho Notebook. Zoho gets the price right, it’s dirt cheap, and has a Linux app (though it’s basically a web app). Zoho bothers me for being ugly though. Craft is slick on iOS with a web app only on desktop, but it’s pricey if you leave the free tier. For my criteria it’s important that the apps support sharing, collaboration, and notifications when the other person updates a note. I’m honestly not sure if these two alternatives hit every requirement because I gave on both pretty quick and accepted being stuck in Apple Notes for now. Going to iCloud.com on my Linux system isn’t horrible.

▲vsgherzi 15 hours ago | parent | next [-]

I disagree. They deserve the criticism. Among things software is one of the few things we should get correct.

I don’t think anyone is asking for the world I just want software that dosent crash and makes sense to use.

Just a couple weeks ago Apple Music was leaking GBs of memory.

▲Grombobulous 14 hours ago | parent [-]

I just don’t really agree with the idea that Apple’s apps are crashing and memory leaking all over the place, and if they are, not more than the median application.

For one thing, the power user crowd tends to babysit their activity monitor and get massively upset when an electron app dares to consume memory.

In my mind, the only thing that matters for non-server apps is whether or not the user experience is good. Memory consumption is just a number. Apple doesn’t even advertise how much memory many of their products have on them. They expect that their users don’t have to think about that, and as long as that remains true, I really don’t mind if Apple Music is eating up 2GB of RAM behind the scenes.

▲vsgherzi 14 hours ago | parent | next [-]

I don’t really think it’s something to agree or not agree on. This is the experience I’ve had as an Apple user. I use their products extensively and like them quite a bit. The issues I’ve seen I deem unacceptable for a company of this caliber. I’m not talking about .6 seconds of load time or absolute customization. I’m talking about FaceTime actually switching when I click the button. Apple Music not leaking memory. Basic usability not niche items.

Now unfortunately apples stuff is usually a cut above other software I’ve used but in my opinion is nowhere near as good as it should be.

▲Grombobulous 14 hours ago | parent [-]

I guess I’m not understanding the standard here. You’re saying they’re usually a cut above other software but simultaneously their software quality is unacceptable.

I don’t even really disagree with the negative experiences you’ve had, I’m just more saying that those experiences are inevitable in software. Being above average is about as good as Apple has ever been.

And I think that standard is also true with hardware. A lot of their hardware is supremely overrated. The MacBook Pro has a sharp edge that cuts into your wrist and has a gigantic notch on the screen.

▲vsgherzi 14 hours ago | parent [-]

1. Much of the software I interact with is bad.

2. I’ve had better luck with Apple software but I’d still categorize it as “bad” relative to the good software I’ve interacted with.

This is a form for software engineers. In the 90’s users accepted things like applications crashing due to lack of memory protection in the OS. We know to expect better.

Again I’m not asking for some alternate reality version of software. I’m asking them to fix clear issues that they do not seem to care about.

Not to mention Apple is a large engineering organization with plenty of talent. The software dosent need to be bug free but I shouldn’t run into as many issues as I do.

Some other fun ones: Finder locking up and refusing to minimize

FaceTime putting me in a call with “testing” when I switch devices

Safari’s extension icon flashing on and off on iOS

Stalling on the lock screen despite me looking directly at the phone to unlock it

To me these are issues that should not make it past the engineers and layers of testing.

I don’t think this is unreasonable do you?

▲Danox 8 hours ago | parent | next [-]

Sounds like you need to switch/try the Microsoft ecosystem or maybe the Linux ecosystem good luck.

▲brookst 12 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

If I'm understanding you:

- Apple's software is better than most

- Apple's software is still imperfect, often in dumb ways

- Apple should be able to be dramatically more perfect than anyone else in software has managed to be

▲vsgherzi 9 hours ago | parent [-]

not quite, you're missing some crucial points. "Apple should be able to be dramatically more perfect than anyone else in software has managed to be" is off by a lot

▲ 4 hours ago | parent [-]
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▲amluto 14 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

The problem as I see it is not crashes and leaks. It’s that basic features are barely functional and the UI is not very usable.

Stupid examples from recently:

- The iOS 27 Preview app’s search feature appears to be present while in markup mode but missing while not in markup mode (this is quite reproducible for me).

- Mobile Safari regularly gets into a state where the overlay showing the current website domain gets stuck obscuring an important part of the site.

- On MacOS if you accidentally switch desktops you cannot switch back until the animation from the first switch finishes.

- Spotlight is still hilariously bad.

- The MacOS Music app’s AirPlay controls are barely functional.

- If you have an excessive number of desktop apps open, finding the one you want is gratuitously difficult. Sure, the bottom dock widget is pretty, but that doesn’t make it efficient.

- While typing this message, multiple different glitchy UI elements have appeared and disappeared.

- On iOS, if the keyboard is showing and you don’t want it, tough luck.

▲solyin 10 hours ago | parent [-]

> Spotlight is still hilariously bad.

Fwiw, Alfred is still being sold.

▲Bang2Bay 13 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

imovie is one software that does not work for the common man. you need to be a pro to even make a basic video.

▲cyberax 14 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> I just don’t really agree with the idea that Apple’s apps are crashing and memory leaking all over the place, and if they are, not more than the median application.

Apple has some amazing engineering in the basic OS layer and the UI kit, but everything on top of it is just bad. E.g. it now takes about 5 seconds to "Privacy & Security" in the system settings, and I can see a visible delay when switching between sections (e.g. to "Screen Time").

Network settings are just embarrassing at this point - you can't sort the WiFi networks by name when looking at the saved settings!

Time Machine has been a disaster zone for the last 20 years. The keyboard navigation experience in macOS is a disgrace, worse than Win3.11 The virtualization experience of macOS sucks, and there is no support for containers (even Windows has them!).

I can continue for a long time.

▲tonyedgecombe 5 hours ago | parent | next [-]

>E.g. it now takes about 5 seconds to "Privacy & Security" in the system settings

It's instant for me on a six year old base level Mini.

▲ 12 hours ago | parent | prev [-]
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▲wtallis 14 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> "and if they are, not more than the median application."

Comparing against the median means you've already thoroughly missed the point.

▲Grombobulous 14 hours ago | parent [-]

How much better is Apple hardware compared to the median? I don’t really think the iPhone is better than most Chinese brand phones. It charges slower and doesn’t have the latest battery technology. Most of what it makes it better than the competition is the software.

This angel’s halo around Apple was always a marketing illusion. They make above average hardware and above average software. Nothing more, nothing less.

▲Danox 8 hours ago | parent [-]

Is that why the Chinese phones have a 7000ah-9000ah battery? and most of Apple’s phones have a 4900ah-5400ah battery?

▲kibwen 13 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> and if they are, not more than the median application

What point is there in paying the premium Apple luxury tax if it's as crap as the median?

▲tomshafer 5 minutes ago | parent | prev [-]

[flagged]

▲2muchcoffeeman 14 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Apple used to have maintenance releases. They used to be known for their taste.

They should absolutely cop the criticism. It’s not like they don’t have the resources to make their software better.

▲Grombobulous 12 hours ago | parent | next [-]

iOS 27 was a maintenance release that focused on performance and improved it significantly, particularly on older phones.

They blasted out a marketing video where they bragged about apps launching faster and the WiFi/cellular connection handing off more cleanly.

My feeling is that there’s just always a group of people who complains no matter what.

▲tonyedgecombe 5 hours ago | parent [-]

>My feeling is that there’s just always a group of people who complains no matter what.

There is a religious zeal to some of the criticism.

▲kibwen 13 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Apple used to be a company whose public image was intrinsically inseparable from the intergalactic ego of its chief executive. Now it's just your typical slop company run by slop executives looking to maximize next quarter's share price before they exit through the revolving door, on their way to the next company in line to harvest.

▲JKCalhoun 6 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

They could go a long way if they 1) slowed down the major OS releases (I mean, like stop them altogether, actually?) and 2) give priority to all bugs and not keep kicking bugs down the road because: we-already-shipped-with-those-bugs-so-they-must-not-be-that-big-of-a-deal.

I'd add 3), more pair-programming between senior engineers and junior engineers—to hopefully make junior engineers better engineers.

I have to say though, when I knew I was heading out of the company (Apple) within a year, I tried to be a "mentor" to the junior engineers at Apple. And they wouldn't have me. I suppose I was too old… To be sure, they knew Swift better than I did, ha ha.

(Oh well, I tried. I did push back very publicly against management during some of the team meetings—I was told by a few of the junior engineers as I was retiring that they appreciated that example.)

▲itake 10 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

From an Apple employee culture perspective, software team is second or third class to the hardware group.

A friend on the App Store software team wasn't invited to a private iPhone Duo preview, because she wasn't in the hardware division. She felt so disrespected and is considering leaving.

My sister (on the hardware team) shared that its a constantly cycle of non-hardware folks getting shafted and then they complain loud enough until they get 'equal' treatment until the next unfair thing rolls out.

▲dasKrokodil 4 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

As a user, I'm much closer to 'the masses' than to the power users and still I have to say that Apple's software keeps getting worse.

▲soulofmischief 8 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

Dude, my M5 MacBook Pro gets too hot to touch while idling, and it's all background system processes. You don't understand the criticism of their software because instead of listening to the criticism, you've dismissed it as power user fantasy without even understanding the problems.

And friend, I didn't pay for an eight thousand dollar machine for software "designed for the masses" instead of serious professionals and computer enthusiasts. "The masses" are not spending eight thousand dollars on a premium laptop marketed towards professionals. This is an expensive machine and I should be in the driver's seat, not Apple. It should not take arcane, brittle incantations to turn off Siri and dozens of background "AI" services that melt my computer and literally burn my fingertips in exchange for recommending filenames in Pages.

And that's not even mentioning the multitudes of extremely serious system and driver bugs piling up over the last several major versions, nor the grotesque and inconsistent Liquid Glass malarkey.

▲Grombobulous an hour ago | parent [-]

These kind of comments are just firmly in the “I don’t believe you territory.”

And I’m not trying to defend Apple at all, I don’t even have a MacBook anymore. I’m more opposed to these extreme tech opinions that seem more emotional than objective.

▲jchw 13 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

My main problem with modern Apple software is I feel the design has been on a near constant gradual decline trend overall (except for the huge dip with Liquid Ass of course) and it has gotten buggier too. I'm just never going to update my iPad because I updated my other Apple devices and I deeply regret it.

I actually have felt this way for a fairly long time but Apple always baits me. Like the twelve or fifteen different times Apple OSes have finally supported some parts of WebM on certain devices sometimes when it works. Oh my god, I gotta update so I can have another couple WebMs load successfully only in Safari and not in any other app that doesn't decode it itself. Or back when I used an iPhone, third party keyboards - I use a lot of jailbreak tweaks but I gotta give that up so I can upgrade for third-party keyboard support that is so ass that nobody would ever use it. Heck, I wish I had updated my iPad even less. One fewer major version and I could've made use of the virtualization support that was dormant - but Apple fixed the glitch that let you use it on Apple Silicon iPads, so now you can't. Thanks! This is important to do because it helps... Uhh, security, probably? Something like that.

Since Snow Leopard or so, most of my Apple software upgrades have been bitter sweet at best, but usually just bitter, like I've been baited into having a worse experience.

Of course, it is probably apparent that I simply don't like Apple very much, especially not anymore. And I hate to have to justify myself by doing this, but we lack the maturity needed for me to avoid it, so... I am going to point out the obvious that this is hardly limited to Apple. GNOME 3 may be the single biggest downgrade any desktop system I've ever used has been. It has improved over time, but GNOME 3 has never been even close to as relatively good for its time as GNOME 2 was. Same for KDE 3 -> KDE 4 although I think as a rare standout KDE Plasma 6 is genuinely getting better continuously over time and remains one of the things I am excited to update. Windows 10 -> Windows 11 was so bad that it seemingly durably made several of my friends switch to Linux full time and just simply give up on things that absolutely can't be made to work on Linux - that is a powerful statement, and months later it seems they were indeed not fucking around. Android has been enshittifying at an alarming pace, too, although I don't feel like the Android experience from a software perspective is degrading or getting worse, but Google really knows how to blow their own leg off and by god they're going to do everything they can to make sure that all of the advantages they have over Apple are rendered meaningless so they can drag themselves kicking and screaming out of accidentally having succeeded at something.

I don't feel like it should be necessary for me to justify this, because Apple's recent growing incompetence in shipping working software and release engineering stands on its own regardless of industry trends. I'd SSH into my Mac Mini, but I can't. I have to go reset it, because it's been on for 60 days and can no longer open new network sockets. (I am not making this up. macOS genuinely has/had that bug and mine genuinely is in that state right now.) It's not that everyone else is doing great. When it comes to Linux systems it's easy to give them a lot of slack because they simply have no goddamned money, but still, things could be better. It's just that Apple is richer than ever and yet worse than ever at shipping software. I struggle to square the circle.

▲ 12 hours ago | parent [-]
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