| ▲ | Device detection and occupancy monitoring for Airbnb hosts(minut.com) |
| 12 points by mikeodds an hour ago | 38 comments |
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| ▲ | ryeights 29 minutes ago | parent | next [-] |
| This is a microcosm of everything that has gone wrong in modern technological society. Most Airbnbs have occupancy rules that bar any daytime visitors if read strictly. This has been normalized under the understanding that the policy isn’t strictly enforceable, but exists as a backstop for situations where extra visitors cause damage/nuisances. So if you want to have a (perhaps spontaneous) guest over or a small polite gathering, as long as you don't cause a disturbance, it's no harm no foul. This is beneficial to the social fabric and doesn't bring any detriment to the host or neighbors. Yet, thanks to the marvels of technology, we can now detect and deter these aberrances that would have otherwise gone unnoticed! |
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| ▲ | cortesoft 9 minutes ago | parent | next [-] | | On the other hand, you could argue that the reason they have a “no daytime visitors” rule in the first place is because they have no way of knowing how manhunt visitors there are so they just make the rule “none” so they don’t have to try to provide how many were there at once. If you could accurately know how many people there are and when they are there, you could have a more reasonable rule like “no more than 3 guests during the day and they have to leave by 9pm” or something. | |
| ▲ | vladvasiliu 10 minutes ago | parent | prev [-] | | I think you're being disingenuous in that you're only looking at half the story. I don't use AirBnB either as a host or a guest, so I may be missing something here, but to me, this seems to fall squarely into "this is why we can't have nice things" territory. Of course, if you have someone over for coffee, there probably is no issue. Of course, if you have many people over for a crazy party, there will probably be a boatload of issues. The problem is there are plenty of dishonest people who'll try to skirt their responsibilities in the in-between situations. Maybe it's difficult to hide that you've had 50 people over. But if you're renting for, say, 4 people and you have 10 more people over? I'd guess it's not directly evident. So if those people aren't hell-bent on thrashing the place, but you know, shit happens? Perhaps the guest will try to say that the couch already had a wine stain, or the dishes were already chipped, or whatever. And if a neighbor complained about the noise? There were just four of us, we kept it reasonable, but we can't be completely mute. So of course hosts will try to hedge against these behaviors. And, of course, people trying to be reasonable will get the short straw. Next thing you know, water will be found to be wet or something crazy like that. | | |
| ▲ | cucumber3732842 8 minutes ago | parent [-] | | >The problem is there are plenty of dishonest people who'll try to skirt their responsibilities in the in-between situations. And the hosts who want to use strict enforcement of rules that were designed around not being enforced unless something bad enough to notice had happened bear no blame? Are they not just as dishonest? What about the internet cheerleaders who validate such behavior with their "rules are rules" ignorance, as if things were that simple? | | |
| ▲ | vladvasiliu 5 minutes ago | parent [-] | | Sure? I mean, multiple people can be dicks at the same time, even to each other. That doesn't absolve the other party. My point was that saying "it's only hosts" or, indeed, "it's only guests" is not fully honest. Edit: I think the underlying thing is hard to set out. Basically, it's "don't be a dick", and it applies to both hosts and guests. But how do you enforce that? So this devolves into a situation where everybody tries to pin the blame on the other, and / or make sure to cover their ass as much as possible. Which brings me back to my general point: this is why we can't have nice things. |
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| ▲ | howdyhowdy 23 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| There are, unfortunately, a lot of listings on airbnb/vrbo/etc. that just shouldn't be. Not because the listings are bad, but because the people are looking to make a buck with the least amount of effort or care as possible. Technologies like this arise when there are too many of that category in a market. |
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| ▲ | SoftTalker 9 minutes ago | parent | next [-] | | Short-term rentals really need to be taxed accordingly to compensate for the cost of their externalities (loss of single-family houses in the market). I'm not sure how many localities do this. | |
| ▲ | calldacopsidc 17 minutes ago | parent | prev [-] | | 100%. In less than a decade this so-called innovation went from "I want to host travelers in my spare bedroom to help make rent" to "I want to buy up homes in popular areas during a housing crunch and pimp them out to frat parties". I have lived next to a property by one of these "superhosts" and it's hell on the neighborhood. STRs are a disgusting and tasteless business and I avoid staying in them at all costs | | |
| ▲ | masfuerte a minute ago | parent [-] | | It started as couch-surfing where you let travellers stay a few nights for free because it was fun. Sadly, when some people look at fun all they can see is potential profit. |
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| ▲ | publicAdjacent 10 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| The ACLU in NH brought a class action lawsuit after these devices ended up in public housing. The devices also detect sound levels by intermittently sampling audio. Looking at the FCC teardown of the devices it is clear they are one firmware update away from streaming audio from all occupants living rooms. https://www.nhpr.org/nh-news/2026-09-02/concord-housing-auth... |
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| ▲ | anta40 43 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| >> How does Crowd Detect estimate occupancy?
>> It detects the number of nearby iOS devices in a property and compares it to your defined threshold. If the count is exceeded, Minut sends an alert. OK so Android users are safe, then. Woohoo! |
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| ▲ | returningfory2 13 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| I wonder how Airbnb would respond to a host complaint that uses this data, because of the following story: A few years ago me and a bunch of friends rented a big Airbnb with a no dogs policy. Some other friends were in the same town, with a dog, and came over and hung out in the yard for a while with their dog. The dog also briefly went in the house (which I think is poor form, to be clear). Somehow the Airbnb host was in the neighborhood and drove by the house to check on it, saw the dog, and then messaged Airbnb to complain. My friend counter-complained to Airbnb that the host was surveilling us. And the end result was that Airbnb discounted the Airbnb by 50% (over $1000). The owner got nothing out of it. Very surprising to me. |
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| ▲ | alexpotato 40 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Wouldn't this be possible with a NUC/RaspberryPi and a bluetooth adapter? e.g. if you suddenly start seeing tons of beacons above the historical maximum, that's a good indicator. (Not trying to be "dropbox is just rsync", just commenting on the iOS only limitation) |
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| ▲ | tgsovlerkhgsel 31 minutes ago | parent | next [-] | | Of course, but most AirBnB hosts want a product, not a project. | | |
| ▲ | iAMkenough 13 minutes ago | parent [-] | | Their property is a project. This product allows them to charge additional fees without being present hosts or even receiving a complaint. | | |
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| ▲ | wildzzz 16 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | Either that or some ESP32. It also includes a smart smoke alarm and noise meter. But property managers aren't going to want to roll their own solution to this. | |
| ▲ | kotaKat 16 minutes ago | parent | prev [-] | | Five bucks says it's just an ESP32 with some sensors wired up to it going to "their" cloud. That's all they all end up being, just in a fancy package buttoned up for the end user. I ripped apart a https://restsensor.com/ "hotel air quality sensor" I got on eBay and it ended up being just that: an ESP32 hooked to a Sensiron SEN55. |
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| ▲ | cube00 an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Interesting that it can only count iOS devices considering Apple is more privacy focused. What's the secret sauce that prevents Android phones being counted in the same way? I would have thought Android's constant Wi-Fi scanning that Google uses for improving their indoor location services would be an easy give away. |
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| ▲ | wildzzz 18 minutes ago | parent | next [-] | | I'd assume it's because it's easier to look for an Apple MAC prefix than trying to figure out if some other device is a phone or not. But with MAC randomization (both wifi and Bluetooth), I'm not sure what they are doing here that would effectively sort iPhones from other devices doing the same. | |
| ▲ | groby_b 44 minutes ago | parent | prev [-] | | None of the developers ever saw one, or they firmly believe focusing on iOS makes the product more 'luxe' |
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| ▲ | wildzzz an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| I'd much prefer this over a host slapping up cameras everywhere. To anyone wanting to throw parties at an airbnb, switch to Android! |
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| ▲ | buggeryorkshire 32 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| You have to get the guests to install an app? Hell no that won't work. |
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| ▲ | close04 17 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| All the pictures show nice, large houses in a suburb. What about apartments in a bigger building? Will the neighbor's visitors trigger this? Would turning off BT completely bypass this? |
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| ▲ | username_my1 an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| wasn't there an algo developed that would use wifi signal as a way to detect humans / movements even behind walls. I imagine that would be a neater solution. if all what you need is a wifi receiver. |
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| ▲ | stingraycharles 43 minutes ago | parent | next [-] | | Absolutely, maybe 15 years ago, and it was / is used by shops to detect recurring visitors and get a better understanding of their behavior. It’s also why anonymization of wifi started being pushed by Apple et al, which still does provide a stable client id but that’s only being broadcast as part of the DHCP handshake, which cannot be used here. | | |
| ▲ | ale42 15 minutes ago | parent | next [-] | | There's also much more recent research where you can actually track the position of people by the changes to the Wifi signal. Passive monitoring only, no device involved. See https://github.com/Saad-Imtiaz/WiFi-Sense for example (first thing I found by looking up now, never tried myself). | |
| ▲ | cucumber3732842 4 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-] | | For years starting in the late teens and fizzling out over covid university paper after university paper about "this is so cool look how we can see through walls by essentially using 5g and wifi as ambient light" and they steadily marched up the chain from simple room layouts to furniture layouts, occupant detection, occupant movement and then started being dressed up with the usual dogwhistle language about "emergency services" that people who are building tech to help infantry/police entry teams use to make it seem more noble and then after that it all just kinda stopped being publicized with any sort of regularity? To me that says that the tech got good enough all those people got hired to make it production worthy behind closed doors. | |
| ▲ | wildzzz 29 minutes ago | parent | prev [-] | | You could look for Bluetooth MACs instead but those too are randomized. Are any other vendors randomizing Bluetooth MACs? Maybe that's what they detect, MACs that don't go to any known vendor. |
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| ▲ | nickorlow 40 minutes ago | parent | prev [-] | | yes -- I think xfinity uses it to implement this: https://www.xfinity.com/hub/smart-home/wifi-motion |
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| ▲ | c-linkage an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| Works only with iOS. I guess only people with iPhones rent houses for parties? |
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| ▲ | varjag 42 minutes ago | parent | next [-] | | Green text ppl aren't getting invited | |
| ▲ | wildzzz 31 minutes ago | parent | prev [-] | | I'm guessing it's because iPhones are easier to characterize over dozens of different android MAC address prefixes. But with MAC address randomization, I don't recall Apple doing anything different than other vendors so not sure what they are detecting that an Android wouldn't reveal as well. | | |
| ▲ | ale42 16 minutes ago | parent [-] | | Isn't it rather detecting UWB or pings from NFB reader? But at least the latter should work also do detect Android phones (see also https://www.reddit.com/r/RTLSDR/comments/1jsr9jv/eavesdroppi...). | | |
| ▲ | wildzzz 9 minutes ago | parent [-] | | Yeah that makes more sense than wifi or Bluetooth. It's probably more of a guarantee than a hard limit on only detecting iPhones. The list of devices with UWB support show all iPhone models since the 11 (except e models) but for Android, it's mostly just the pro/plus/ultra versions of the flagships. |
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| ▲ | mdrzn 17 minutes ago | parent | prev | next [-] |
| "Crowd Detect uses passive signals from nearby iOS devices to estimate occupancy." Thank god Android doesn't fuck my privacy like that. |
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| ▲ | nothercastle 23 minutes ago | parent | prev [-] |
| Another reason to just get a hotel room. |