> PATRIOT, FISA and Bush's surveillance programme imho give more powers to certain agencies today already than are codified in EU law.

This is not true. Whether you believe that FISA courts have teeth, or whether 3 letter agencies abide by the law, in most of Europe you do not even have the pretense of this. UK/FR and to a lesser extent DE are all much worse.

The worst parts of Patriot Act were undone in 2015, and the "F" in FISA stands for "Foreign". Europe continues to push policies like Chat Control and attempt to backdoor/ban E2E encryption for domestic surveillance.

The present day and trajectory in Europe is far far more grim than in the US.

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oakpond an hour ago | parent | next [-]

> Europe continues to push policies like Chat Control and attempt to backdoor/ban E2E encryption for domestic surveillance.

Let's not forget that Chat Control is pushed by US non-profit Thorn, and implemented by software that this non-profit develops! Furthermore, if you look at how this software actually works (even in "self-hosted" setup it sends hash values to Thorn's servers [1]), it's pretty clear that this tech could easily be abused to perform surveillance on the EU from within the US.

[1] https://web.archive.org/web/20260721220432/https://get.safer...

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palata 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

> Europe continues to push policies like Chat Control and attempt to backdoor/ban E2E encryption

Some politicians in Europe push for that, until now it has been refused by the others. Unlike in the US, there are many different parties in European countries. And Europe is made of politicians from many parties from many countries.

> The worst parts of Patriot Act were undone in 2015

So the NSA doesn't do any kind of domestic surveillance anymore, is that what you believe?

> the "F" in FISA stands for "Foreign". [...] Europe continues to push policies [...] for domestic surveillance.

So if it's surveilling allies, it's all good in your opinion?

> The present day and trajectory in Europe is far far more grim than in the US.

"Far far"? Do you even realise that Europe is not one single country? The US elected Trump, twice.

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adjejmxbdjdn 36 minutes ago | parent | next [-]

>> Some politicians in Europe push for that, until now it has been refused by the others. Unlike in the US, there are many different parties in European countries. And Europe is made of politicians from many parties from many countries. > And yet neither party in the US is pushing for it...

This is a bad retort. The U.S. has 2 relevant parties. Most countries in the EU have at least twice as many relevant parties and there are over 25 countries in Europe, so you’re looking at close to 100 relevant parties.

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qeternity 2 hours ago | parent | prev [-]

Yes, I am an American living in Europe. I have pretty good insight into all of this.

> Some politicians in Europe push for that, until now it has been refused by the others. Unlike in the US, there are many different parties in European countries. And Europe is made of politicians from many parties from many countries.

And yet neither party in the US is pushing for it...

> So the NSA doesn't do any kind of domestic surveillance anymore, is that what you believe?

Do you have any evidence to the contrary? Or if you believe this without evidence, do you have any evidence this is not occurring in Europe?

> So if it's surveilling allies, it's all good in your opinion?

Lol, lmao even. Yes, of course it is. Allies spy on each other. The Europeans do it to each other massively and have done since the dawn of Europe. Good lord, go read some history.

> "Far far"? Do you even realise that Europe is not one single country? The US elected Trump, twice.

Again, I live in Europe. I am well aware, but thanks for the classic European condescension. I don't like Trump. But how has he weakened privacy rights? And yes, beacause I don't want to write dozens of caveats for each teeny tiny member state, I consider Europe to be dominated by happenings in DE + FR + UK. I don't care what Latvia does.

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TomGarden an hour ago | parent | next [-]

> thanks for the classic European condescension.

This is such a strange statement about a massively culturally diverse part of the world.

Many European countries speak such poor English that it'd be a miracle if they developed some sort of unified condescension.

I'd argue a big part of Europe not performing as well as other parts of the world economically is the LACK of any defined culture, it's really more like a hodgepodge of countries that have a thin layer of cooperation

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qeternity an hour ago | parent [-]

I have no clue what English comprehension, monolith culture, and condescension have to do with one another? Or even the presumption that I only speak English?

It's not a strange statement in the slightest if you live here or spend any appreciable time here. I take it you do not.

	▲	43 minutes ago \| parent [-]
		[deleted]

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rebolek an hour ago | parent | prev | next [-]

You don’t care about Latvia and I don’t care about some dickhead who "lives in Europe" and knows it all. And I’m not even from Latvia, you’re just pathetic.

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awestroke 2 hours ago | parent | prev | next [-]

> Do you have any evidence to the contrary?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snowden_disclosures

	▲	qeternity an hour ago \| parent [-]
		> So the NSA doesn't do any kind of domestic surveillance anymore Yes, of course. That is why GP said "anymore". Thanks for playing!

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andrepd an hour ago | parent | prev [-]

This comment could not have been more stereotypically American. I stress "stereotypical", I'm obviously not saying Americans in general are like this.

> I don't like Trump. But how has he weakened privacy rights?

Attacks on rule of law and civil liberties have increased, and the right to privacy is one of those liberties. It's of course not limited to Trump, he wasn't in office when Snowden showed the world the scale of American mass surveillance on domestic and foreign citizens.

> Do you have any evidence to the contrary?

I'm totally unsure what you are attempting to imply. That mass surveillance by the American state stopped at some point in the last 10 years?

> Allies spy on each other. The Europeans do it to each other massively and have done since the dawn of Europe. Good lord, go read some history.

What does that even mean "read history" ahaha. Espionage != mass surveillance. You do understand the difference, do you not?

> thanks for the classic European condescension

> I consider Europe to be dominated by happenings in DE + FR + UK. I don't care what Latvia does.

l m a o. Oh say can you see...

	▲	qeternity 43 minutes ago \| parent [-]
		> This comment could not have been more stereotypically American. Of course. As I noted before, dripping in European condescension. Nothing you can actually point to, just condescension from a region that has been left behind over the past century. > Attacks on rule of law and civil liberties have increased, and the right to privacy is one of those liberties. It's of course not limited to Trump, he wasn't in office when Snowden showed the world the scale of American mass surveillance on domestic and foreign citizens. Which right or in what way has the right to privacy been attacked? Fully agree with you on attacks on rule of law. And I find Trump incredibly dangerous. But I do not think privacy in the US today has suffered. Please educate me. > I'm totally unsure what you are attempting to imply. That mass surveillance by the American state stopped at some point in the last 10 years? I am not implying anything. The Freedom Act curtailed a bunch of activities. You are implying nothing has changed. All of the Snowden revelations implicated many European countries: intelligence agencies spying on each others populations. I am asking you if you believe nothing has changed in the US do you 1) have any evidence of this and/or 2) believe that anything has changed in Europe? You've answered neither. > What does that even mean "read history" ahaha. Espionage != mass surveillance. You do understand the difference, do you not? Do you understand that the mass surveillance of European people was done at the behest of the intelligence agencies of those countries? And ditto for the NSA. The agreement was "you spy on mine and I'll spy on yours and we'll swap the intel". I am not talking about espionage. Foreign intelligence agencies spying on foreigners...what did you think they did? > l m a o. Oh say can you see... God, it's so painful. Yes in the same way that you talk about the US as a monolith and not 50 individual states. You don't care what Rhode Island does any more than I care what Latvia does. Christ you guys are insufferable. It's no wonder everyone is leaving in droves.